@Skizzo @Edgar Allan Pillow I have the write up ready if you want to start this now
Chain Draft (Main Thread)
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
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I'm here. Nothing from Skizzo.
Sent my writeup
Sorry, crashed out early last night. I'll get something over to you in the couple of hours when I get home.
Will post it soon. Had to go and wanted to finish it before as it left some questions unanswered. Wanted to see if I could find a way to access a Swedish documentary about him but it isn't available outside of Sweden unfortunately.
@Edgar Allan Pillow I'll have something sent over in a few. Just got home. Internet is being a bit shit right now
Feck, wanted to add some stuff from the Swedish documentaries about him/Grenoli but couldn't find a way to access it and there aren't many other great sources so there aren't many changes but here goes. I bet there are some Italian sources about, but the idea was to not use the 1958 footage as it just shows him past his peak and even if he was still the captain, and the second best player in thI'd say it was the Schiaffino-era
There haven't been a lot of players similar to the mould of Didi, who used their world class dribbling as a provocation tool primarily and as a manner of getting past a defender secondarily. Both Liedholm and Didi were experts at provoking the opponents to try and steal the ball from them and when they did they were turned inside out until they could slip a through ball straight in to the space that opened up.
It wasn't a choice the opponents had, they slowly walked or jogged with the ball at their feet closer and closer to the opponent until he had to react and when he did the dance started. The first opponent tries to win the ball aggressively, the second tries to be passive but still gets pulled out of position and Liedholms crisp passing leads to a goal.
"Technically, few matched him and his passes were so spot on, so precise, that he never missed a pass. Actually he did miss one pass. It was 3 seasons after he joined Milan, I don’t remember the exact game, or the exact year, but all the old Milan fans are saying it, that at one time, at the San Siro, Liedholm missed a pass in midfield. He wanted to pass the ball to a teammate and instead, the ball went straight to an opponent. At that time, happened one of the most extraordinary moments ever lived in the San Siro, as related by the old timers. The crowd couldn't believe their eyes. In 3 full years, that Liedholm has been playing for Milan, no one could remember him making a bad pass. At that time, the whole San Siro gave Liedholm, one of the warmest and longest standing ovation ever witnessed in that great stadium. "It was the first pass I missed in about five years," Liedholm recalls.
His confidence and tranquility showcased itself everywhere on the pitch, when the man received the ball at his feet the fans, his teammates and himself were all confident that he wouldn't loose the ball, regardless of the situation. Here he hits a perfect tackle when he's out of position covering as a right back, before he dribbles past both his own keeper and the opponent - and the longer version also shows him finding his teammate with the clearance as well.
"His passing ability over long or short distances was second to none at the time and from the deeper position of inside forward he was able to control games with ease. He was also exceptionally fit, one of the first players to recognised the importance of physical conditioning for a long career. Although he was primarily a goal creator, usually for Nordahl, Liedholm also possessed a powerful left-footed shot which brought him 18 league goals in his first season with Milan.
While he wasn't an aggressive player defensively, he was as tactically astute and mature as they come and an inspiration for his teammates as a captain. As soon as he retired he was hired as the assistant manager, and he went on to have a great coaching career as well.
Prior to the arrival of their Swedish trio, Milan had not been Italian champions since long before the Serie A era but finished second in Liedholm's first season and in 1950-51 went one better, a total of 107 league goals helping the club finish one point clear of city rivals Inter. They would go on to finish no lower than third in any of the next six years, with further league titles coming in 1955 and 1957. In 1958 Liedholm helped the club to reach the European Cup final when. Playing at inside-right, he scored one and made two more as a 4-0 win overturned a first leg deficit in the semi-final against Manchester United, a team admittedly severely weakened in the aftermath of the Munich air crash. With Liedholm as captain, Milan agonisingly lost the final 3-2 after extra-time to Real Madrid despite leading twice.
It is said that Real Madrid great Alfredo Di Stefano who, felt despite victory it was a match Milan could have won.Asking Liedholm to exchange shirts, Liedholm said to him "Keep it. That won't matter. The only thing that will be remembered from this match down the years is that Real Madrid won"."
It wasn't the first time the dominant club side in history put a stick in the wheel of fortune for Milan. In 1955, Liedholm captained his side against Madrid in the semi-finals where they lost with 4-5 over two legs.
Not a lot of players have captained their club and nation to a European Cup and World Cup final in the same year, and he came 6th in the Ballon d'Or that season as a 36 year old who was past his peak. His peak had started a decade earlier, when Grenoli lead Sweden to victory in the 1948 Olympics which meant they'd all be playing for Milan the season after.
Random comparisons between him and other greats, note that they aren't facts or necessarily accurate, and not a representation of my opinion.
The 100 Greatest Playmakers of All-Time
1. Michel Platini (France)
2. Zinedine Zidane (France)
3. Bobby Charlton (England)
4. Didi (Brazil)
5. Rivelino (Brazil)
6. Gianni Rivera (Italy)
7. Raymond Kopa (France)
8. Luis Suarez Miramontes (Spain)
9. Nils Liedholm (Sweden)
The 50 Greatest Offensive Midfielders of All-time
16. Nils Liedholm
17. Michael Laudrup
The 125 Greatest Players in history
72. Nilton Santos
71. Nils Liedholm
70. Paul Breitner
The 100 Greatest Footballers of All-time
44. Giacinto Facchetti (Italy)
45. Nils Liedholm (Sweden)
46. Valentino Mazzola (Italy)
47. Rivaldo (Brazil)
The 100 Greatest players of All-Time(Pantheon)
76 Dixie Dean 80 75 75 76.6 English 1923-39
75 Kurt Hamrin 80 75 75 76.6 Swedish 1952-72
74 Nils Liedholm 81 75 75 77 Swedish 1938-61
73 Marco Tardelli 78 77 76 77 Italian 1972-88
The invitable and unquestionable PES Stats ranking: Don't read this crap, seriously stop reading, ok you stubborn bastards.
Best long passers in history:
98: David BECKHAM 1998-2002 & 2003-2005, Josep GUARDIOLA, Luis SUAREZ, Günter NETZER, Dragan DŽAJIĆ
97: Andrea PIRLO 2005-2007, Michel PLATINI 1980-1986, Diego MARADONA 1992-1994, Wim VAN HANEGEM
96: GERSON, Puck VAN HEEL, César CUETO, Diego MARADONA 1976-1982
95: David KIPIANI, Francisco ARCE, Juan Sebastián VERÓN, Ernst OCWIRK, Gianni RIVERA, Stanley MATTHEWS,Glenn HODDLE, Nils Liedholm
Best short passers in history:
98: RUI COSTA, Carlos VALDERRAMA
97: Josep GUARDIOLA, Juan Roman RIQUELME, ZICO
96: Michael LAUDRUP 1990-1994, Johnny HAYNES, Gianni RIVERA, Zinedine ZIDANE 2004-2006, Yuri GAVRILOV,SOCRATES, Juan Sebastian VERON, Ricardo BOCHINI, Nils Liedholm
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@Edgar Allan Pillow sent everything over, so feel free to throw it up whenever.
@MJJ @crappycraperson sorry for the delay. Internet is down here right now so did it all from phone. Hope it all comes out ok without typos galore
@MJJ @crappycraperson sorry for the delay. Internet is down here right now so did it all from phone. Hope it all comes out ok without typos galore
I watched that gif quite a few times before realizing he was defending
I watched that gif quite a few times before realizing he was defending
It's quite telling that wank Chris Sutton ranks Larsson - and not Shearer - as the best striker he's played with.
Didn't know that! So many odd and difficult personalities seemed to praise him to no end, from the Ronaldinho talks to Ibrahimovic who even said he wanted Henrik Larsson as his coach.
It might be Thursday 6pm before i'm ready to start as Utd playin 2moro night and Wednesday I'm trainin. Friday's the best day for me
It may be a struggle but i'll try my best to get something done up for then.
I'll do it as soon as the wife hits the sack. Good luck mate.
Done @Edgar Allan Pillow
I @diarm agrees I'd rather start by noon so I can catch the first hour or so. Won't be around much if at all until 8-10PM.
If diarm hasn't seen this and agreed stick to 3PM and I'll pick it up whenever I can.
I @diarm agrees I'd rather start by noon so I can catch the first hour or so. Won't be around much if at all until 8-10PM.
If diarm hasn't seen this and agreed stick to 3PM and I'll pick it up whenever I can.
Use the second post I sent you in the convo, the teamsheet on the first one is wrong.
I was messing around after seeing diarm have a laugh posting ridiculous formations on sharemytactics (as if he is fooling anyone
, Joga also tried the same). Then somehow sent you the teamsheet I posted to take the piss out of him
Definitely. The Gren-Liedholm partnership was a very interesting story, Gren was the leagues top scorer in 1947 - even with Nordahl/Liedholm and IFK Norrköpings great dominance to compete with. So when they all arrived to Milan they scored 71 goals together in one league season, which is pretty outstanding and maybe slightly off balanced for a team where the three front players were supposed to be scoring.
After that first season there was a definite change in their dynamics, most likely the result of a tactical change by the manager and the Gren-Liedholm partnership became a lot less about individual flair and goal scoring. While they scored less the team scored as many and they managed to win the league the year after, after narrowly losing it the year before.
Use the second post I sent you in the convo, the teamsheet on the first one is wrong.
I was messing around after seeing diarm have a laugh posting ridiculous formations on sharemytactics (as if he is fooling anyone
I for one think you should use his first formation @Edgar Allan Pillow . This would be fitting punishment for his underhand espionage on sharemytactics.
Happy to start whenever although I may miss the first hour or so if we start at noon. That's fine though - I can pick up a little later on.
@Edgar Allan Pillow I've sent you an updated teamsheet and tactics. Decided to mix things up a little since @antohan has been spying on me!
I didn't base my write up on any of them. There's only one way you can really play with that personnel and decade restrictions, with very little room for nuances. I find it very funny how the sharemytactics search has turned into a mindgames arena. Joga was less crass though, his tactics were based on a pic off sharemytactics and what they actually did submit had ever so slight differences that invited criticism or for strikers to be deployed a certain way. Had Boninsegna not been a lefty I would have considered swapping him around with Altafini as Mauro was supposedly the LCB.
I tried something different: having players I didn't even have, to see whether they slipped and you wrote an OP talking about them. That would have been funny
Then I somehow submitted the wrong teamsheet That would be an even bigger brainfart than EAP's epic snatching of a loss from the jaws of victory.It wasn't Joga, I had a little fun visualizing his team and submitted the line-up to confuse anyone who decided to take a look at sharemytactics beforehand.
I find it very funny how the sharemytactics search has turned into a mindgames arena. Joga was less crass though, his tactics were based on a pic off sharemytactics and what they actually did submit had ever so slight differences that invited criticism or for strikers to be deployed a certain way. Had Boninsegna not been a lefty I would have considered swapping him around with Altafini as Mauro was supposedly the LCB.
I tried something different: having players I didn't even have, to see whether they slipped and you wrote an OP talking about them. That would have been funny
Don't you think it's primarily that it was the first season in Italy for them and their manager? They largely lost the league that year on the back of an average start of that campaign, so even when they were beating Juve 7-1 in the second round it wasn't enough to claw back their advantage.
I know you've said it before, but I was watching footage from 1950 again the other day and you have to wonder what may have been if that trio had played at the World Cup in their prime. They would have been out of sight against Uruguay after our poor first half and sub keeper's clangers (he was the Nacional keeper, of course). They beat Sweden without them... Question is whether they would beat the rampant Brazilians. Probably not, your defence was shoddy enough, and we would have lost the last game with nothing to play for... Good thing they buggered off to Italy then
@Edgar Allan Pillow did we decide on a kick off time? I'm having issues with my laptop and want to wipe and reinstall the OS. Will take me an hour or so and I don't want to come back and find anto has had 40 unopposed minutes to paint my players as puppy murderers who once lost a game of 5 a side to Luke Chadwick and his nan.
If we're starting before 2:30 let me know!
If we're starting before 2:30 let me know!
That's certainly a weak point in sharemytactics. I used to like making teamsheets of all the stronger teams and then project how they could evolve over the course of the draft into their best possible final formation. Obviously can't do that now! Well, I can, but this11 ate shit with their site changes.
As long as you don't submit the team, nobody can see what you've done. I just prepare them and take a screen cut of the pitch.
I want details on that game!
Let's stick to 3PM then, but I won't be around other than some phone checking until 10pm if that's the case.
Good to know in advance so I'm not late for work... again.
Just send to me and I will put it up now
Let's do this @antohan . That way we can have a mini debate until you leave for work, then I'll wipe this machine and we can resume later on. Sending to you now GS
Yeah, I know, but if you are doing several different teamsheets you need to do them from scratch every time which is an arse.
OK