Centre Forward

ben_foster said:
Injuries are part and parcel of the game which is exactly my point. Last year we had vidic/anderson/cleverley out pretty much all season. We also had injuries to nani/valencia/young and a crises in the back 4.

Most clubs get one or two long term injuryies per year. If one or more effected our 3 forwards then despite kagawa/young being able to "do a job" it would feck us right up. With reference to the blackburn game that people mentioned, that was as a result of jones and rafa "doing a job"!
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But that midfield situation was a pretty extreme one, one which can be remedied by actually signing with a more proven fitness record. And yes injuries are part and parcel but ours were very extreme, no one else had as many injuries as we did.

We're prepared for a normal amount of injuries up top. If one of our strikers is injured then we have 2 others who are perfectly capable of leading the line. We don't need to play both of them at the same time because we're unlikely to play 442.

If you start thinking like that than where do you stop? We have 4 players competing for 2 spots and that's more than enough. Yes another good young striker would be nice but very unneccessary. If we were to get a normal amount of injuries than in general we would expect to have both Welbeck and Hernandez on the bench in most games. This new striker would be pretty wasted unless we had serious issues.

Only under an extreme situation would you expect your 3 senior strikers to all get injured and if it was a significant amount then that's when we would bring in someone in january.

I really don't think you're acknowledging the role Kagawa plays. Because he's there we won't play 2 strikers, not in most games. And unlike City we have 3 quality wingers which means we don't need to play one of our strikers wide in most games.
 
We will never get a wc striker to act as rooney cover. We tried that with berba and he got fed up of the situation. A wc player will want to play week in weeek out and with kagawa as 10 we cant provide that to him (unless we want to see rooney on the bench). Under such circumstances chica and welbeck is the best we can get
 
Pogue Mahone said:
[PEDANT]We actually put 7 goals past Blackburn and Wigan over the course of last season[/PEDANT]
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It's been a few hours, but should clarify this. I meant that those were the only three teams we played that none of the three scored against. Berbatov did the scoring against them instead.

ben_foster said:
A little. Im amazed at the opposition to straight forward numbers.
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This is a mind-blowingly ironic post. I'm starting to suspect this thread is some kind of performance art.
 
ben_foster said:
RedRover said:
I said llorente would be a fantasy type signing. As ive mentioned numerous times i cant see it happening. Hernandez, jelovic, ba, cisse, are all example of players that have scored goals in the premier league and not cost a fortune. Unlike most (they would have you belive) i dont have time to watch the german/spanish/italian leagues so i couldnt confidently reccomend a player. However, i believe that the numbers just dont stack up in only having the three (despite moving to a 4231). It especially of a concern that 2 of the 3 have had 2 good seasons between them. Rooney and welbeck will also not have a summer off whilst hernandez's season has only just finished and his olympic involvement has yet to be confirmed. Welbeck is a young leggy lad who has injury history attributed to growing / insufficient rest and so having played for the u21's last summer, 40 games last season, euro's this summer then its not beyond the realms of possibility he'l pick up a strain/pull here and there. Whilst rooney also has injury problems playing "summer" football picking up numerous metatarsil injuries. I think we have qauntity in central midfield but would like to see a bit more qaulity. However, up top i think we are short on numbers and reliant On potential
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Injuries are part and parcel of the game - three players to cover one position is absolutely sufficient. Four players into one position simply does not go. It results in players being unhappy, and or not getting the games that they need.

You completely ignore the fact that any player coming to any club wants first team football - so how do you sell it to a player - "you'll get a few games cos Danny Welbeck or Wayne Rooney are bound to get injured"? I don't see how you can keep all those players happy.

As for Welbeck and Hernandez having "2 good seasons between them" I'd remind you that Jelavic and Cisse have had half a season each and Ba one season in the last few which hasn't been ravaged by injury.

You have your opinion and that's fine - but for me the glaringly obvious issues are with United's midfield, not an attack which scored plenty of goals last year, supplemented by three of the best wingers about which is more than enough going forward.
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devilish said:
We will never get a wc striker to act as rooney cover. We tried that with berba and he got fed up of the situation. A wc player will want to play week in weeek out and with kagawa as 10 we cant provide that to him (unless we want to see rooney on the bench). Under such circumstances chica and welbeck is the best we can get
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for feck sake who has mentioned a world class striker. id be more than happy with a young lad. or even better, an (fit) owen type player coming to the end but happy to play a dozen or so games.

its seems im underating kagawa, im the only person here not certai that he's going to score and make 15 goals next year, stay fit and adapt instantly. silly me.
 
ben_foster said:
for feck sake who has mentioned a world class striker. id be more than happy with a young lad. or even better, an (fit) owen type player coming to the end but happy to play a dozen or so games.

its seems im underating kagawa, im the only person here not certai that he's going to score and make 15 goals next year, stay fit and adapt instantly. silly me.
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We already got 3 young strikers, 2 of which play for their nation and are considered extremely promising. If Rooney picks a long term injury, it would hinder us, irrespective on whether we get a new young striker or not.

We've got the bodies and they are good enough to act as Rooney's cover (Hernandez, Welbeck, Young etc). Anyone better than that would mean spending big money on a player who would mostly act as a cover (unless we send Kagawa on the bench). We've tried to send the likes of Berba and Tevez on the bench and we know the results of it.

PS a fully fit Owen (with his former blistering pace et al) would have never accepted the bench. He'll probably be a first teamer with a big side.
 
devilish said:
We already got 3 young strikers, 2 of which play for their nation and are considered extremely promising. If Rooney picks a long term injury, it would hinder us, irrespective on whether we get a new young striker or not.

We've got the bodies and they are good enough to act as Rooney's cover (Hernandez, Welbeck, Young etc). Anyone better than that would mean spending big money on a player who would mostly act as a cover (unless we send Kagawa on the bench). We've tried to send the likes of Berba and Tevez on the bench and we know the results of it.

PS a fully fit Owen (with his former blistering pace et al) would have never accepted the bench. He'll probably be a first teamer with a big side.
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ok ok ok, javier hernandez and danny welbeck are sufficient.
 
ben_foster said:
i disagree. hernandez allowes teams to press very high up the field as he is awful at timing his runs and quite often caught about 20 yards offside. welbeck got how many goals last year??? no arguements about rooney's qaulity.

if you where a back 4 you would fear rooney, tevez, ronaldo, berbatov.

like wise ruud, saha, rooney ronaldo

like wise cole, yorke, sherhinham and solksjear.

rooney, welbeck and hernandez is far poorer than any of those combinations. gone are the days when rossi couldnt get a kick
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He's awful at timing his runs and his caught 20 years offside? Based on one season? Based on one season, when the prior season he was known for his....timing and runs? Welbeck had 9 league goals last season, 1 in 3 starts. You don't think he will improve on this?

What the hell does that have to do with anything? It's not our best strike force ever, clearly not, but it's a far cry away from being a strike force that no defence, even average teams, would worry about. You're speaking nonsense mate, and the time it takes you to type out and respond to each criticism, should be spent not being deranged, maybe even just watching all of last years matches for an overview.
 
Hectic said:
He's awful at timing his runs and his caught 20 years offside? Based on one season? Based on one season, when the prior season he was known for his....timing and runs? Welbeck had 9 league goals last season, 1 in 3 starts. You don't think he will improve on this?

What the hell does that have to do with anything? It's not our best strike force ever, clearly not, but it's a far cry away from being a strike force that no defence, even average teams, would worry about. You're speaking nonsense mate, and the time it takes you to type out and respond to each criticism, should be spent learning or something, maybe even just watching all of last years matches for an overview.
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last year we where knocked out of the group stages in the champions league, knocked out very early in the fa and league cups. blatent evidence that when your looking at strength in depth we didnt have it last year.

in defence/midfield we had terrible luck with injury. going forward we where very fortunate injury wise. going into what is hopefully a 60 game season with 3 forwards i think is risky.

we did very well going forward at times last year as we have the best wingers in the league. there was however a number of games where it was crying out for a a change but with fergie freezing out berbatov and owen always injured that just wasnt there.
 
According to Goal.com Sturridge could be up for grabs for 12m.
 
ben_foster said:
last year we where knocked out of the group stages in the champions league, knocked out very early in the fa and league cups. blatent evidence that when your looking at strength in depth we didnt have it last year.

in defence/midfield we had terrible luck with injury. going forward we where very fortunate injury wise. going into what is hopefully a 60 game season with 3 forwards i think is risky.

we did very well going forward at times last year as we have the best wingers in the league. there was however a number of games where it was crying out for a a change but with fergie freezing out berbatov and owen always injured that just wasnt there.
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See, that's a much better argument, rather than randomly slagging off certain qualities in our players. Although I don't think we were knocked out of those competitions on the basis our strike force wasn't good enough. We also scored a ridiculous amount of goals last season, and as you pointed out, that was without Berbatov/Owen. I think last year was a bit of a freak one in terms of injuries, or at least the number of them. We could bolster up the strike force for numbers sake, but that be would so we have the traditional four strikers we've used many seasons, not because our current three strikers all have glaring problems, which is the picture you have painted, like a maniac.
 
You bring up strength in depth but then say we had terrible injuries? That's your answer. We do have strength in depth but if you're facing a huge injury crisis than unless we start stock piling like city there's not much you can do about it. Also if you think our european failures were a result of a lack of options upfront then I think you're very wrong. Defensive frailties against Basel home and away cost us, the same defensive frailties that have been an issue in the league. That's the problem.

The thing is, you seem to be very adamant that we need another striker even if they're young. Most young strikers don't exactly give you many goals from open play. With regular games you're probably looking at about ten. I would be suprised if kagawa an the wingers stepping up wouldn't get way more than those 10 goals.
 
Ash_G said:
You bring up strength in depth but then say we had terrible injuries? That's your answer. We do have strength in depth but if you're facing a huge injury crisis than unless we start stock piling like city there's not much you can do about it. Also if you think our european failures were a result of a lack of options upfront then I think you're very wrong. Defensive frailties against Basel home and away cost us, the same defensive frailties that have been an issue in the league. That's the problem.

The thing is, you seem to be very adamant that we need another striker even if they're young. Most young strikers don't exactly give you many goals from open play. With regular games you're probably looking at about ten. I would be suprised if kagawa an the wingers stepping up wouldn't get way more than those 10 goals.
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we didnt have injuries up front last year. if we do this year we havnt got strength in depth.
 
Many many players have impressive scoring stats for top teams but when you look closeley at when they where scored and against who it tells a different story. Welbeck played 43 times and returned 13 goals. Playing with wayne rooney and the best wingers in the league.

From memory he scored………..
Against arsenal in an 8-2 victory
Against spurs late on in a 3-0
Against norwich late on in 2-0 win
Against fulham in a 5-0 win
Against bolton in a 3-0 win
Against wolves in a 5-0
Against villa in a 4-0

I only remember one winner against arsenal. The rest are goals late on in romps. It’s a little bit of the england bias coming through in saying he had "an outstanding break through season". Had that been a forlan/rossi etc etc it would be disasterous season. Similar to hernandez. He scored more in less games yet was seen to have a poor season. Of course there is more to leading the line than scoring goals.
 
ben_foster said:
we didnt have injuries up front last year. if we do this year we havnt got strength in depth.
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Well we did, welbeck spent a few spells out, Hernandez had his fitness issues.

And we do have strength in depth. So let's assume we're going with Rooney and kagawa as our first choice. If one of them gets injured welbeck comes in. If both get injured Hernandez comes in or if we don't want to play both of them either can play up top with a winger on either side in a 433. That's another point, kagawa actually gives us proper cover for Rooney in that number 10 role.

At the end of the day berba wasnt needed last season. He barely got games. He's leaving and kagawa has come in to be in direct competition with Hernandez and welbeck. That's the four attackers up top.
 
Rooney, in his third season at United, the same age as Welbeck during his first real season here, achieved 14 goals in 35 games playing alongside the likes of Solskjaer, Ronaldo, Saha, Larsson and Giggs. Did you have questions over his end product?

Welbeck had a good season, and has shown time and time again why he is considered the talent he is. Concerns over his productivity, based on his first proper season which wasn't even bad, seems a bit stupid.
 
Hectic said:
Rooney, in his third season at United, the same age as Welbeck during his first real season here, achieved 14 goals in 35 games playing alongside the likes of Solskjaer, Ronaldo, Saha, Larsson and Giggs. Did you have questions over his end product?

Welbeck had a good season, and has shown time and time again why he is considered the talent he is. Concerns over his productivity, based on his first proper season which wasn't even bad, seems a bit stupid.
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no, none at all. rooney has a lot more to his game than goals. he was also supported by solkjear, ronaldo, saha and larsson. which isexactly my point. welbeck isnt supported by 4 other senior strikers.

cheers for that

i have no concerns at all of welbeck being a qaulity centre forward in 3 or 4 years but think his development will be helped not hindered by more support/competition. rooney and ronaldo are prime examples of that.......they came on leaps and bounds playing with better players than themselves. they leanred from larsson/saha/ruud/ole and those experienced lads being there did not prevent them from playing one bit (as you rightly say rooney played 35 games despite a broken foot and despite competition). it offered them a bit of protection and support. danny welbeck without that as we stand. yes we have good wingers, yes we have kagawa......but they are there to supply him, not compete/encourage/develop him.

the stats i have higlighted where not intended to criticise welbeck in anyway but to simply support my argument that he (nor hernandez) are ready to lead the line for united for any period of time.
 
Ash_G said:
Well we did, welbeck spent a few spells out, Hernandez had his fitness issues.

And we do have strength in depth. So let's assume we're going with Rooney and kagawa as our first choice. If one of them gets injured welbeck comes in. If both get injured Hernandez comes in or if we don't want to play both of them either can play up top with a winger on either side in a 433. That's another point, kagawa actually gives us proper cover for Rooney in that number 10 role.

At the end of the day berba wasnt needed last season. He barely got games. He's leaving and kagawa has come in to be in direct competition with Hernandez and welbeck. That's the four attackers up top.
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so kagawa is being classed as a forward??? thats fine. like i say i havent seen him.
 
ben_foster said:
so kagawa is being classed as a forward??? thats fine. like i say i havent seen him.
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Yes he plays in the hole, he's not gonna play centre mid. When he'll plays we're most likely going to be either 433 or 4411. So only one other striker is gonna play at the same time. So effectively he'a in competition with welbeck and Hernandez for who will start with Rooney.
 
ben_foster said:
Many many players have impressive scoring stats for top teams but when you look closeley at when they where scored and against who it tells a different story. Welbeck played 43 times and returned 13 goals. Playing with wayne rooney and the best wingers in the league.

From memory he scored………..
Against arsenal in an 8-2 victory
Against spurs late on in a 3-0
Against norwich late on in 2-0 win
Against fulham in a 5-0 win
Against bolton in a 3-0 win
Against wolves in a 5-0
Against villa in a 4-0

I only remember one winner against arsenal. The rest are goals late on in romps. It’s a little bit of the england bias coming through in saying he had "an outstanding break through season". Had that been a forlan/rossi etc etc it would be disasterous season. Similar to hernandez. He scored more in less games yet was seen to have a poor season. Of course there is more to leading the line than scoring goals.
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your memory is quite poor then.

- opening goal against spurs, which led to 3-0 win
- opening goal against arsenal which led to 8-2 win
- goal against Norwich settled nerves (coming on as a sub) in a match in which Norwich were doing pretty well
- 2 goals in a match against Basle which we then went on to draw 3-3 from being 2-0 up
-opening goal in 5-0 win against Fulham
- he was injured in the match against Bolton

having to get into a meeting now. anyways, i think that is enough to show that you have made things up in your head regarding him scoring late goals in romps.
 
I still don't get it.

And OP is massively romanticising our strike force of years gone by. We've not had 4 established, fit, involved CFs in the squad since the 99 quartet. Last year was the only time and Berbatov barely got a look in. So he's out, a deeper playing option comes in his place. We could also see Young play centrally too. Plus players like Macheda, King, Keane, Petrucci should be looking to get in the squad for cup games and the odd bench appearance.
 
One fecking look across top clubs all over Europe and it should be clear as day that 4 strikers isnt a prerequisite for success. We had 5 last season and 2 of them didnt even feature most of the time.
 
Varun_Utd said:
One fecking look across top clubs all over Europe and it should be clear as day that 4 strikers isnt a prerequisite for success. We had 5 last season and 2 of them didnt even feature most of the time.
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I think the progression towards 5 midfielders in most formations these days mean 4 strikers are unnecessary if you have the appropriate midfielders. I however am greedy and would love 4 top class strikers for us to choose from. I would just go about the argument a bit different than old Ben did.
 
Ramshock said:
I think the progression towards 5 midfielders in most formations these days mean 4 strikers are unnecessary if you have the appropriate midfielders. I however am greedy and would love 4 top class strikers for us to choose from. I would just go about the argument a bit different than old Ben did.
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With Kagawa's signing, i hope we move to a 3 man midfield for most games too. Atleast most certainly, the big ones.

As i see it, we have 1 top striker and 2 young ones who need to play to get better. Getting another forward in would complicate matters regarding selection and long term, i'd much rather give these 2 enough games to develop as players. Last season proved it really with Berba not getting much gametime.
 
ben_foster said:
I only remember one winner against arsenal. The rest are goals late on in romps.
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How is this still going on? You are, quite literally, repeatedly inventing 'facts', and then when people point out that your bizarre quasi-arguments are based on utter untruths, you don't even reply. What the fecking hell is wrong with you? Okay, on second thoughts, that question might be a bit too broad. I'll try this instead, why do you keep lying?

edit: Just so we're clear on this, and so this bizarre slander on Welbeck is thoroughly rebuked, here are Danny's goals and the score at the time he provided them:

Against Spurs at 0-0
Against Arsenal at 0-0
Against Basel at 0-0
Against Basel at 1-0
Against Norwich at 1-0
Against Fulham at 0-0
Against City at 1-0
Against Bolton at 1-0
Against Arsenal at 1-1
Against Wolves at 2-0
Against Villa at 1-0
Against Everton at 1-1

A non-lunatic would conclude, as I did months ago, that while Danny doesn't score as many as we'd like (yet), he scores goals which matter, and often against the best opposition. In the entire season, only once did Danny Welbeck score a goal when Manchester United were more than one goal in the lead. I'm dying to hear 'ben_foster' explain how he came to his above-quoted conclusion.
 
Chabon said:
How is this still going on? You are, quite literally, repeatedly inventing 'facts', and then when people point out that your bizarre quasi-arguments are based on utter untruths, you don't even reply. What the fecking hell is wrong with you? Okay, on second thoughts, that question might be a bit too broad. I'll try this instead, why do you keep lying?

edit: Just so we're clear on this, and so this bizarre slander on Welbeck is thoroughly rebuked, here are Danny's goals and the score at the time he provided them:

Against Spurs at 0-0
Against Arsenal at 0-0
Against Basel at 0-0
Against Basel at 1-0
Against Norwich at 1-0
Against Fulham at 0-0
Against City at 1-0
Against Bolton at 1-0
Against Arsenal at 1-1
Against Wolves at 2-0
Against Villa at 1-0
Against Everton at 1-1

A non-lunatic would conclude, as I did months ago, that while Danny doesn't score as many as we'd like (yet), he scores goals which matter, and often against the best opposition. In the entire season, only once did Danny Welbeck score a goal when Manchester United were more than one goal in the lead. I'm dying to hear 'ben_foster' explain how he came to his above-quoted conclusion.
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:lol:

and that, my friends, is how you put someone bang in your pocket.

Quality.
 
What a load of bullshit.

ben_foster said:
a). welbeck hasnt proven he can relied upon.
b). hernandez hasnt proved he can be relied upon.
c). rooney prefers to play off the front, is known to go missing for half a dozen games and could quite easily be out suspended/injured.

i
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Let's just sign Angelo Henriques. The kid has a good scoring record for his age.
 
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