Genius. You just can't argue with an insightful contribution like that.
Cathcart
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
Genius. You just can't argue with an insightful contribution like that.
I think Hull would be the perfect club for him. They are really dying for a decent centre half to play alongside Michael Turner - they really struggled when teams worked out that they just needed to attack the other CB (normally Zayatte). Very similar situation to Sunderland who were appalling at the back before Evans went there.
You are right Sambachan.
Hull would be a nice move if they can add a few other decent players too. As it is, I'd worry that they are nailed-on relegation certs and being on the end of constant defeats, often heavy and rarely his fault, wouldn't be that great for Cathcart's development. Sunderland were struggling when Evans went there second time around, but not to the extent I can see Hull doing this season.
hull will probably sell turner
unless they add some decent players , they will get raped by most teams. . could dent his confidence ..
would get games , but its just as important to be playing/training with good or atleast decent players ..
unless they add some decent players , they will get raped by most teams. . could dent his confidence ..
would get games , but its just as important to be playing/training with good or atleast decent players ..
I think we should just keep him in the squad. You can never have too many good defenders. If we can get him 10+ games this season it'll be good for him.
I'm not in favor of loaning our players out because aside from beckham, we've rarely seen the benefits.
I'm not in favor of loaning our players out because aside from beckham, we've rarely seen the benefits.
Evans, Campbell at Hull, Cleverley...it's been the makings of some players.
I sort of agree but for different reasons. I think we should only loan players to certain clubs. Clubs the have a tradition of playing good football and clubs with managers who will help our youngsters rather than grind them into the ground and effect their confidence.
Just heard scott sinclar is gone to wigan, thats his 6th club on loan, fecking ridiculous behaviour really.
Ipswich/Forest/Derby clubs with a history whos fans also demand good football are who we should aim to send them to. Obviously in reality it isnt as simple as that but you get the idea.
But you can have too many good defenders if you have so many that some don't get the games they need. I still think 10+ games would be hugely optimistic - we'd probably need to get to both cup finals and draw relatively low-key opposition all the way through the FA Cup run to get anywhere near 10 games for him. That or a major injury crisis.
evans benefited but he was with keane and he got some premiership exeperience.
Campbell did well at hull but it wasn't premiership experience. His stint at spurs you could argue wrecked any chance of a United career because he wasn't allowed to show what he can do
Cleverly again wasn't premiership experience and now we're looking to loan him out perhaps again - so I don't think he's 'advanced' in any respect.
I would agree someone like hull perhaps though they didn't really trust manucho enough. We know what happened there.
If he was assured to play in a certain amount of games then it'd be good but I think it's better us looking after our own
The thing is too, over the last 3 years we've had so many injuries to defenders. I'd just prefer we looked after his development
well ps18 we're talking about a young kid here. If we did well in the cups, that would be 10 games + easy. Ofcourse it'd mean we'd have to do well in the cup competitions but everythings a risk.
Normally i'd say your right but over the last 3 years - our defenders has been the main area where we've suffered. I remember the ac milan game. Prior to the injuries, we thought we were strong there
The thing is I think the games he played will have convinced Sir Alex to keep him here. I think he'd have featured against valencia if he hadn't have been injured.
He doesn't have premiership experience but I think people like cleverly, de laet perhaps will go on loan. We'll just have to wait and see though how it works out
Of course we're talking about a young kid, I'm well aware of that. That's sort of the point really - players his age need games to progress. If the option comes up of a decent loan move where he can play every week, even at the top end of the Championship, that for me is far better than taking a big gamble, keeping him here, hoping we progress to the latter stages of both cups, and even then barely getting him ten games.
I guess what it comes down to for me is this - the best possible scenario with him staying at OT in my opinion is getting around 10 games if we progress in the cups. And I'd happily forego that to see him get 30/40 games at a decent club elsewhere. And that's the best case scenario. A more realistic scenario is maybe 5/6 games, and there's a perfectly plausible scenario whereby we exit both cups early and keep the senior defenders fit which would leave him struggling to make 1/2 appearances, and having to rely on reserve football.
It's not even a cert that he'd get cup games if he stayed here - if everyone's fit, Wes and Evans aren't going to be getting regular games (or JOS and Evans if Wes is starting at RB) so SAF could easily decide to pair them in CC games.
The AC Milan game and that run at the end of 06/07 was a freak run of injuries though - Neville, Ferdinand, Vidic all out, Evra in and out of the side. And we didn't have the depth then that we do now, even without Cathcart.
I'm not the games he played can have really convinced SAF of anything - he only played one full game, plus 20 minutes as sub against Bayern. SAF may have been convinced before, but I can't see him having his mind made up by 110 minutes of football.
I guess what it comes down to for me is this - the best possible scenario with him staying at OT in my opinion is getting around 10 games if we progress in the cups. And I'd happily forego that to see him get 30/40 games at a decent club elsewhere. And that's the best case scenario. A more realistic scenario is maybe 5/6 games, and there's a perfectly plausible scenario whereby we exit both cups early and keep the senior defenders fit which would leave him struggling to make 1/2 appearances, and having to rely on reserve football.
It's not even a cert that he'd get cup games if he stayed here - if everyone's fit, Wes and Evans aren't going to be getting regular games (or JOS and Evans if Wes is starting at RB) so SAF could easily decide to pair them in CC games.
The AC Milan game and that run at the end of 06/07 was a freak run of injuries though - Neville, Ferdinand, Vidic all out, Evra in and out of the side. And we didn't have the depth then that we do now, even without Cathcart.
I'm not the games he played can have really convinced SAF of anything - he only played one full game, plus 20 minutes as sub against Bayern. SAF may have been convinced before, but I can't see him having his mind made up by 110 minutes of football.
Huh? You don't go from zero-to-Premiership quality overnight, there are many steps along the way. Playing a few months of competitive football for successful League One side was bound to have been a good experience for a young lad like Cleverley. Much more useful than playing Reserve football. Fergie says there are Premiership teams in for him now - that probably wouldn't happen without last season's loan.
Nonsense, it was a single season where he was underutilized. Before and after, he spent time training with United, and he had a the full season at Hull to showcase his talents. Sir Alex had ample opportunity to determine if Campbell was going to make an impact at United, and he decided that he didn't. Tottenham didn't help Campbell much, but it hardly ruined him.
Beckham is merely the most famous United player to have spent time on loan. He's not a good example of a player who greatly benefited though, because he only played five matches at Preston North End.
Current United players to have gained valuable experience on loan near the beginning of their careers include John O'Shea, Ben Foster and Darron Gibson. To say nothing of the millions of extra pounds in transfer fees we've received for young players like Kieran Richardson who went on loan. Without that time in the shop window they'd have been worth next to nothing.
And like you've said about Richardson in the other post, that Hull loan spell is essentially the reason we've got £3.5m for him this summer, with potentially another £2.5m to come.
Agreed, if he's playing regularly at Premiership level, or even at a good Championship side he has a very good chance of breaking into the senior Northern Ireland side too which he'd really benefit from. I think more than ay position, centre back is something you improve with from playing as many games as possible as along with your natural attributes you're reading of the game, positioning, decision making etc improves but only if you are being challenged.
Unfortunatly for the most part reserve football isn't particularly high quality and and no one should really be playing it for more than a couple of seasons at the most and the loan deals are the way around it - giving players experience where the results mean something and you are playing against experienced pros. You can easily stagnate in the reserves.
With Rio's back/thigh fecked and Evans needing an ankle op, does anyone else think that Cathcart's shit out of luck when it comes to going out on loan?
Yeah, I can't see him going anywhere during this window.
Having bit of a mare by the sounds of it today, currently 4 down at home to Cardiff.
Its all a learning curve though, they had been going great over the last few weeks.
Its all a learning curve though, they had been going great over the last few weeks.
Got caught under the ball not really defending for West Brom's opener today, didn't seem like he could do too much about the others.
Given our defensive difficulties, is there any chance of us recalling him early from his loan? I have to say that I have had high hopes of Cathcart making it to the first team for a while, but he seems to be having a very tough time of it on loan (at Watford in case anyone was unaware). Admittedly it's so hard to say with defenders because experience and maturity are more essential there than anywhere else (and of course not everyone is Jonny Evans), but so far he's not taking his chance the way Evans did at Sunderland.
The fact that he's not impressing at Watford means that Ferguson will probably prefer to field Fletcher or Carrick in defense. Might have been different if he'd been playing as well as Cleverley is, but he really isn't.
I'd be very surprised if he was recalled from his loan. Is it season-long?
I think it's until January.
Have a feeling Watford fans would quite like us to bring him back...
Etc etc. Bit baffled really, some kids you wonder if they'll sink or swim (Cleverley for example could have gone either way) but with a solid half-season in the Champ under his belt already and looking so composed in his few first-team appearances (albeit friendlies) I didn't think Cathcart would struggle with Watford at all.
Etc etc. Bit baffled really, some kids you wonder if they'll sink or swim (Cleverley for example could have gone either way) but with a solid half-season in the Champ under his belt already and looking so composed in his few first-team appearances (albeit friendlies) I didn't think Cathcart would struggle with Watford at all.
In truth, Watford were going to find it difficult to get anything out of an impressive Newcastle side. No excuse for his silly backpass though.
Will be interesting to see whether Watford want to extend his loan or not. I think they might, by virtue of the fact Cathcart is the tallest in the squad. Watford are probably the only team who will field a back four of which only one is above 6'! Defensively from set-pieces, they are woeful.
Will be interesting to see whether Watford want to extend his loan or not. I think they might, by virtue of the fact Cathcart is the tallest in the squad. Watford are probably the only team who will field a back four of which only one is above 6'! Defensively from set-pieces, they are woeful.
Unfortunately those are the sort of comments he seems to be getting every week (while Cleverley on the other hand they absolutely adore).
Ive been keeping a eye on a watford forum for a while now and I agree. Its great learning curve for him but I dont think hes anywhere near Jonny Evans level at the same age.