I used to think that too. Last season kind of changed my mind a bit. Fergie seemed to utilize out entire squad to the max. But maybe that was a one off.
Cathcart
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
There was minimal rotation at centre-half, almost all the changes were injury-enforced.
I agree with that.
Last season he wasn't ready. He'd have played around as much as Chester did. For me this season he is as ready as Evans was after his Sunderland spell. & to be honest int he event of injury befalling Wes, and Rio rested, I'd rather have him to call on as CB cover on the bench than Neville. Especially since O'shea would not likely be strater, hence not available for cover duty. But that's just my preference.
Indeed.
Probably. It's just I'm nervous about us having to rely on only Neville and Wes as extra defensive cover with their recent records.
No, what I meant was imagining Cathcart was at the level he is now, which games would he have played?
He'd probably have made up to 15 appearances and had several more stints on the bench. In the Carling cup and FA cup people like Vidic and Rio would rarely have got games. People like Evans and Rio would not have played at least 5 games when they were half fit. Games like the Villa one where Neville was at center half would not have happened. Not to mention the times we had almost no defender on the bench.
Which 15 games?
Exactly. Chief, might be time to concede this one.
Apparently he has said that he wants to fight for a place this year rather than go out on loan again. Great attitude and another mature performance after coming on as a sub tonight.
Carling cup:
VS Boro In place of Vidic
VS QPR at CB instead of Neville
VS Blackburn at CB instead of Neville
Vs Derby County Away & at home
The final instead of Rio.
FA CUP
VS Southampton instead of Vidic
VS Derby County Away instead of Rio
VS Spurs at home Instead of Neville at CB.
Vs Everton at |Wembley
Champions League
Vs Aalborg at Home, instead of Rio
VS Porto at home instead of a half fit Evans
In the League
vs Stoke at home instead of Vidic
Vs Aston Villa at home instead of Neville at CB.
Vs Arsenal at OT
VS Hull away
No, it's still nonsense chief.
I'd seriously question Cathcart playing ahead of Neville last year, on the basis that Neville needed games himself and Fergie would have wanted that more perhaps than Cathcart getting games.
I've made it known how highly I rate Cathcart, and yes even at the start of last year I'd have said the same thing, but I've no worries about throwing him into the lions den, him and Evan's are our future in the middle of defence, We just need to keep them both happy for the time being.
I've made it known how highly I rate Cathcart, and yes even at the start of last year I'd have said the same thing, but I've no worries about throwing him into the lions den, him and Evan's are our future in the middle of defence, We just need to keep them both happy for the time being.
Maybe.....I take your point about Evans being injured and in some of the Carling Cup games. Certainly better than Chester and Ecks in terms of development and experience.
Not sure about the finals and semi's though or In Europe.
Indeed. Though according to PS 18's scenario IMO, if he had the one years experience of championship football like he has now, he should have had all those mentioned games last season.
To be fair, you did pretty well there Chief. Some of them are dubious and it's definitely the most games he could have played in, especially as centre-backs don't really need resting in the same way as other players. But it does back up your argument, so I take back the nonsense bit.
He could also play a few home league games against weaker opposition just to give Rio/Vidic/Evans a break. I know that SAF doesn't rotate central defenders as a rule but I think he's gonna want to manage Rio's dodgy back fairly carefully, so an extra option would come in hady.
Indeed. I remember last season us having at times play a half fit Evans and Rio, and having to play Neville out of position when he was on the comeback trail. Not to mention the fact we used Vidic so much that at one point his form collapse a bit (the Liverpool home thrashing etc) .
IMO with SAF's wise use of rotation I would love to have a CB option like Cathcart available. Than see us struggle with Neville as a CB when Wes is missing and others need a rest. We have enough games to play as a team for a Cathcart to get a decent amount of games.
I still don't think Cathcart would have even played in half of those if he'd been around (and was at the stage in his development he is now). As has been said, Nev needed games so it's not a given he'd have played in the Carling Cup - as I've said, SAF uses the League Cup to keep fringe players match fit as well as blooding youngsters. Might have played 1/2 of those max, certainly not the semis/final (bar being ahead of Chester as the sub to come on in the home leg of the semi).
Don't think he would, or should, have started any of those FA Cup games. Aalborg maybe, I'd still have had a half-fit Evans ahead of him easily for the Porto game (especially as half-fit is pushing it a bit). League games - no idea why we'd have started him against Arsenal, that was a nervy 0-0 as it was without a rookie centre-half being thrown in. The Hull game's an anomaly with the title already being sewn up. Villa game was absolutely crucial and the team was rocking after two defeats, SAF is always going to go with the experience of Nev there. Don't agree with the notion of using him in the so-called 'easier' league games either.
It's all about whether you think SAF would have used him in those games had he been available, not whether you think he could have played in those games. I don't think he'd have played more than five games, in fact I'm certain he wouldn't. I don't think he'll get much more than that this season.
Don't think he would, or should, have started any of those FA Cup games. Aalborg maybe, I'd still have had a half-fit Evans ahead of him easily for the Porto game (especially as half-fit is pushing it a bit). League games - no idea why we'd have started him against Arsenal, that was a nervy 0-0 as it was without a rookie centre-half being thrown in. The Hull game's an anomaly with the title already being sewn up. Villa game was absolutely crucial and the team was rocking after two defeats, SAF is always going to go with the experience of Nev there. Don't agree with the notion of using him in the so-called 'easier' league games either.
It's all about whether you think SAF would have used him in those games had he been available, not whether you think he could have played in those games. I don't think he'd have played more than five games, in fact I'm certain he wouldn't. I don't think he'll get much more than that this season.
I'm pretty certain your wrong PS18. A look at the number of games Evans got last year is enough proof of that. Besides its a bullshit notion to think Fergie would have another quality natural center back available and waste Neville at CB because he needs games. It's more likely a fullback like Rafael would be dropped to accomodate the captain.
Christ alive. A look at the number of games Evans got last year proves nothing, because Cathcart wasn't and isn't as good as Evans was last year, and because Cathcart would have been behind Evans in the pecking order anyway for crying out loud. I'm exasperated that you haven't grasped this yet. The only way your point would make any sense is if we were to get rid of Evans for some reason and replace him with Cathcart, which we obviously are not going to do.
And it's not a bullshit notion at all, have you even followed SAF's career ffs? And why would Rafael, who (good as Cathcart is) is clearly a level above Cathcart in terms of current ability and probably potential too, be dropped? Nev playing at centre-half in Carling Cup games had the dual benefit of letting Nev get games as he tried to return to fitness, and bringing an experienced head to the back four.
And it's not a bullshit notion at all, have you even followed SAF's career ffs? And why would Rafael, who (good as Cathcart is) is clearly a level above Cathcart in terms of current ability and probably potential too, be dropped? Nev playing at centre-half in Carling Cup games had the dual benefit of letting Nev get games as he tried to return to fitness, and bringing an experienced head to the back four.
Rather its you failing to grasp the most obvious of things! We clearly lacked enough cover at center back last season. So much so that we at times had to use a half fit Rio, Vidic and a young Evans, drafted into game the likes of Chester on our bench, over used Vidic to a point that he lost form at the wrong end of the season (starting with the Liverpool OT defeat for a few weeks) and worst of all nearly cost ourselves the title by having to play an unfit Gary Neville at center half.
That's just silly. It seems you just don't grasp the concept of center back cover. Last season we were one short, even with Evans around. To the extent we used Neville there at the most crucial stage of the season (vs Villa amongst others). Rather it's you who really seems to not have followed Fergie that much.
There is no way in hell Fergie would have had a player of Cathcart's current experience, like the scenario you cooked up, available and pick a half fit Neville at center back. He has never been that dumb. First off, there is no proof Rafael is a "level above Cathcart". The don't even play the same roles to make such a claim. The comparison is naive in the extreme.
Secondly, Neville is the more experienced right back. I'd expect him to start there ahead of a Rafael if he needed games, in his most natural position. Rather than us weakening our defence by playing Neville at CB when a much better option is available.
He could have played the same role at right back. I don't buy that excuse at all. Neville was only used at CB because no better option was available when the likes of Rio and Vidic were rested/injured/suspended.
Ok, last post because I'm clearly conversing with someone lacking a brain. Point 1 - whether or not we 'nearly cost ourselves the title by playing Gary Nev at centre-half' (and there was a lot more wrong with the performance vs Villa than Nev), there is simply no way Cathcart would have played in that game if he'd been around. No chance whatsoever.
Point 2 - read your own posts for crying out loud. You are saying that the games Evans got last season is proof that Cathcart would have or can get similar, completely failing to realise that Cathcart would be behind Evans in the pecking order. It's so so simple, how do you not see this?
Point 3 - already addressed, you're delusional.
Point 4 - erm, Rafael has played 20-odd league games, CL games, World Club Cup final, there is absolutely no question he is 'better' than Cathcart right now. Sure, comparing players in different positions isn't straightforward but I think we can all say Rooney is better than Valencia, or Ferdinand is better than O'Shea.
Secondly, again you seem totally brainless - he wasn't going to play Nev at right-back in those games BECAUSE RAFAEL ALSO NEEDED GAMES. Jesus.
Point 5 is just more bollocks along the same lines of the rest.
Have never really encountered you on here before as I rarely venture out of this sub-forum but from the reactions of others, you seem to have a track record of idiocy and it's not hard to see why. You can 'win' this argument if you want though, just keep repeating the same nonsensical points.
Point 2 - read your own posts for crying out loud. You are saying that the games Evans got last season is proof that Cathcart would have or can get similar, completely failing to realise that Cathcart would be behind Evans in the pecking order. It's so so simple, how do you not see this?
Point 3 - already addressed, you're delusional.
Point 4 - erm, Rafael has played 20-odd league games, CL games, World Club Cup final, there is absolutely no question he is 'better' than Cathcart right now. Sure, comparing players in different positions isn't straightforward but I think we can all say Rooney is better than Valencia, or Ferdinand is better than O'Shea.
Secondly, again you seem totally brainless - he wasn't going to play Nev at right-back in those games BECAUSE RAFAEL ALSO NEEDED GAMES. Jesus.
Point 5 is just more bollocks along the same lines of the rest.
Have never really encountered you on here before as I rarely venture out of this sub-forum but from the reactions of others, you seem to have a track record of idiocy and it's not hard to see why. You can 'win' this argument if you want though, just keep repeating the same nonsensical points.
Typical. Failed to refute anything inteligently and now resort to type.
Lord have mercy! Do your really belive this dumb shit you spew?
You are the one who cooked up a scenerio with Cathcart being availaible last season with his current level of experience. Yet you want to stupidly claim it's logical for SAF to plump for an unfit Neville to play in a position not his at the most crucial stage in our season. Rather than pick a natural in the role, far better than Neville in the role, with note worthy experience to play alongside a Vidic or Rio? That's is beyond fecking stupid logic. If you can't see SAF can't ever be that stupid then really there little else to say.....
It'd be like trying to talk with a door knob and expecting an inteligent reply in return. In other words, pal, quit using your arse to do your thinking. For the only result you will get is bullshit.
FFS.
Did I not clearly state that even with Evans around we clearly still lacked cover at center half? Hence that it's beyond obvious that having Evans around would not have hindered a Cathcart in the slightest since he would still have got up to 15 games last year? Is this a concept too hard for you to actually grasp when you read it?
Or is you stupid "Cathcart can/would never play full stop!" logic just blocking your ability to use your brain prorperly. Making you plump for thinking with your arse.
Says the fella who believes Fergie would pick a half fit Neville over a natural center back, with good first team experience, way better than Neville in the position. just to give Neville games.
Classic case of a pot calling a kettle black.
You are a joke really. That is pitiful logic. Only someone like you could come up with some inane shit that would compare Rafael being better than Cathcart like it was a case of comparing a Rooney to Valencia or a Rio to O'shea
Evans for example, played far less top flight league experience than than Gerard Pique by the start of last season. Yet Pique got sold and Evans is here. Having more starts has little to do with being better. Fabio, Rafael twin brother is better than him, even Rafael admits to this, yet he has far less top flight starts. A thing like that shouldn't be hard to grasp. A thing that should be in mind when talking about Rafael and Cathcart. Two player who comepte for different roles in the team, whilst faing totally diffent odds. Cathcart has Rio and Vidic, the two best players in his positon on the planet, to contend with for starting place, plus Johnny Evans. Whilst Rafeal has only O'shea, a past it Neville and ever inured Brown. It shouldn't be hard to guess who has an easier path to first team football. Which isn't based on his talent.
But that would be expecting to much form you reallly...
Bullshit. Rafael was getting enough games in the prem. That only changed when he run into the injury problems most of our right backs were plagued with last year. Once again your thinking with your arse rather than your brain. Neville only played at Center half because no one else better was available. It's not remotely debatable.
Quit misusing the word point. For you really have next to no idea how to make one with any sense in it.
How silly.
I have no desire to win anything. I don't remember entering any context like you certainly have. I just attempted to put across a point of view to someone I hoped had an iota of sense. But sadly I was grossly mistaken. Even people like Sincher, who intially disagreed with me begun to see my point. You on teh oeryth hand have decided to think with your arse. Not to mention claiming I'm stupid whilst actaully displaying utter stupidity yourself. It isn't surprising you've decided to go around the cafe looking for backing for your dumb ass points of view. No wonder you think what the majority say on here is gospel truth.
As for me I done. I have better things to do than argue with a door knob. I have not come accross such a waste of user account like yoursefl in a while. I'm sure glad it isn't a regular occurance.
So long sucker.
Only on RedCafe would a debate over whether or not a teenage centreback would get enough playing time descend into personal abuse
Only on RedCafe would a debate over whether or not a teenage centreback would get enough playing time descend into personal abuse
absolutely. I love the certainty of their arguments. If SAF thought he was good enough last year he'd have stayed in the squad. Hopefully, this will be his year.As I've learnt over the years, SAF is the master at judging a young player's ability. Rarely misjudges it and a young player comes back to haunt him
I personally would rather see him loaned out to a prem club if any are willing to play him, we could maybe have a clause where we can review the situation in January and decide if we need to bring him back, people have to remember that part of Evans development was not just playing for Sunderland in the Championship but going back to them in the Premiership, In fact he spent the the 1st half of that season with United and never got a look in.
Wow good debate here. Cathcath is nowhere near the level of Evans this time last year. Thats just a simple fact.
True. And considering Cathcart's age and his performances in the friendlies so far, I see no reason why he shouldn't be handed a few opportunities this season. He seems mature enough and looks to be beyond Championship level for a centre back.
I'm quite amazed at that rant. PS18 is one of the best posters on here.
Evans is an exceptional defender though, and he's flourished quite young, and it'd be hard to reach the levels that he has in the last few years. It's no insult to Cathcart that he's not quite as good as Evans was a year back, although I'd say 'nowhere near' is overstating it slightly.
It'll be interesting to see how much we do see of Cathcart next season though. Evans played only 3 games in 2007/08, and made almost 30 starts last season, although defensive injuries did help his cause in terms of getting games. Cathcart looks a skillful and decisive defender, and despite one mistake in the Boca game, I was impressed by how well he seemed to slot into the defence. I could see him becoming a regular CC starter next season, and then if he plays well there, getting some appearances in bigger games. I'm going to wait to pass too much judgement until the end of this coming season then, when we see how much Craig has played, and whether his play has developed accordingly.
Totally agree.
The loan deal at Sunderland in the Premiership really brought Evans on.
That's a good point, and I think when he came back he was playing more composedly, and he definitely looked more solid. Perhaps we'll see Cathcart out on loan at some point, though if we don't, I hope he'll get a handful of first-team games here, as he's a promising young talent who needs first team experience to begin to sharpen the areas of his game which need a bit of work.
Playing for an average Premiership side against the best strikers in the League was perfect for his development at that stage. No offence to the Championship as it is very competitive and there are some good teams, but it is a different level playing against the likes of Drogba, Torres etc.
There's a difference between 'a few opportunites' and the 25 games that Chief bloke thinks Cathcart should be getting though. And then you have to juggle whether a few opportunities with us is better for his development than a season as first-choice at a decent Championship/lower Premier League side.
I didn't read the previous posts between you guys, but yeah I agree that 25 matches seems overly optimistic. Can't see it happening.
Loaning him out to a championship team wouldn't do the lad any favours though, but a loan to a Premiership team might if he got some playing time. Certainly better than playing for the reserves which he'll have to do if he stays at OT the entire season.
I'm very impressed with the maturity of his play, as I said earlier he needs to be matched at a proper level. Especially considering his age.
Interesting ]In PS18's eyes he isn't even good enough to keep a half fit Neville out of a CB slot.
I never said that, brainiac. I said that to play alongside the inexperienced Evans for a vital game coming on the back of two straight defeats, Sir Alex would have picked Neville over Cathcart every single time.
fecking bullshit.
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Find some other fool to buy your lies. I'm not interested in going through the same dumb ass shit with anyone like you.
Yeah, can definitely see the logic in Cathcart doing the same.
I would agree with this, Cathcart has not yet had the exposure to top flight football that Evans had enjoyed at Sunderland, it would have been too big a risk to push him into the first team. Remember what happened when we fielded too many inexperienced kids, against only Coventry no less.