Yeah that's probably right really.
Cathcart
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
I'd rather not see Neville played there - he gets mauled in the air, and he's lost a lot of pace since his last injury.
I think we should keep him for the 1st half of the season and play him in the CC games.. & if he does well then there should be nothing that should stop him from getting a good run of games in the Fa Cup & latter CC matches too..
It would obviously only be in an emergency.
I just don't think it's worth possibly stunting a promising player's development just to keep them around in case of an injury crisis. If there isn't one, he will play very few games - we can't forget that Fergie doesn't solely use the Carling Cup and other lower-key games to blood youngsters but also to give fringe players important match time.
Could maybe see the merit in keeping him around and seeing how we get on in the Carling Cup, but it may be that we can get him a better (season-long) loan move before the season starts than we possibly could at some point mid-season, in which case I'd rather we did that and took a bit of a risk.
Ferguson gives Northern Ireland's Craig Cathcart the nod for Man United clash
Northern Ireland youngster Craig Cathcart has been handed a golden opportunity to show Manchester United what he can do.
Cathcart (20), has been called into Sir Alex Ferguson’s senior squad for the Audi Cup, which starts in Munich tomorrow night.
United take on Boca Juniors and then on Thursday the Red Devils will face either hosts Bayern Munich or AC Milan.
Cathcart has dreams of following in the footsteps of countryman Jonny Evans, who has come through the ranks at Old Trafford to become an influential figure in Ferguson’s squad.
Like Evans, Northern Ireland under-21 ace Cathcart has been on loan in Belgium and last season had a spell with Plymouth.
It was thought that he would go out on loan again this season for more experience, but perhaps Ferguson has other plans for the Belfast boy.
He is expected to play in one of United’s Audi Cup matches.
Tomorrow night new United recruit Antonio Valencia, signed for £18 million from Wigan, is set to make his debut for the club against Boca Juniors after recovering from injury. As well as Valencia and Cathcart, Nemanja Vidic, linked with summer moves to Real Madrid and Barcelona, also joined up with the United squad today.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-14435600.html
Northern Ireland youngster Craig Cathcart has been handed a golden opportunity to show Manchester United what he can do.
Cathcart (20), has been called into Sir Alex Ferguson’s senior squad for the Audi Cup, which starts in Munich tomorrow night.
United take on Boca Juniors and then on Thursday the Red Devils will face either hosts Bayern Munich or AC Milan.
Cathcart has dreams of following in the footsteps of countryman Jonny Evans, who has come through the ranks at Old Trafford to become an influential figure in Ferguson’s squad.
Like Evans, Northern Ireland under-21 ace Cathcart has been on loan in Belgium and last season had a spell with Plymouth.
It was thought that he would go out on loan again this season for more experience, but perhaps Ferguson has other plans for the Belfast boy.
He is expected to play in one of United’s Audi Cup matches.
Tomorrow night new United recruit Antonio Valencia, signed for £18 million from Wigan, is set to make his debut for the club against Boca Juniors after recovering from injury. As well as Valencia and Cathcart, Nemanja Vidic, linked with summer moves to Real Madrid and Barcelona, also joined up with the United squad today.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-14435600.html
Yeah Cathcart needs regular football at this stage to develop. The Plymouth loan worked well.
That's only 3 matches, assuming no replays, and the FA Cup doesn't start until January either. I'd say loan him out, it's better for his development to get a lot of matches with a settled team than to get three matches with a mix of kids and veterans in the Carling Cup.
And play him once in Munich first to give him a taste of the big-time.
Firstly Neville and Wes are unlilkely to stay fit for long periods during the season. Secondly, O'she is unlikley to move form a fullback position this year, and lastly Carthcart I believe is good enough to make a back up CB place his own. Rather than merely waiting around for a crisis tbf.
Neville is obviously a long shot to stay fit for any length of time but as I've already said, he'd only be a last resort anyway. Wes has had his problems but equally can't be deemed 'unlikely' to stay fit in my book - you only have to go back to 07/08 to see him make the most appearances of anyone, pretty sure he didn't miss too much time in the couple of seasons before.
JOS can move inside when needed, chances are he won't play quite as much at full-back this season with the various options we have there. So who's Cathcart going to 'make a back up CB place' ahead of? Without question he would be behind Rio, Vidic, Evans and Wes in the pecking order, and at this point in time I don't think there's any question that SAF would play JOS ahead of him if a big game came around and 2/3 of the above were missing. So at this point in time, he genuinely only would get a look-in in 2/3 CC games or at times of an injury crisis.
JOS can move inside when needed, chances are he won't play quite as much at full-back this season with the various options we have there. So who's Cathcart going to 'make a back up CB place' ahead of? Without question he would be behind Rio, Vidic, Evans and Wes in the pecking order, and at this point in time I don't think there's any question that SAF would play JOS ahead of him if a big game came around and 2/3 of the above were missing. So at this point in time, he genuinely only would get a look-in in 2/3 CC games or at times of an injury crisis.
To be fair, 07/08 was an unusual season for Wes. He averages about 30 games per season, in all competitions. Bearing in mind he isn't getting any younger and his shocking bad luck with injuries last season I'm not sure we can rely on him to play much more than 20-30 games next season.
TBF Wes is unlikely to have a a season like he did in 2007. Being much older and still injury prone. Meaning with SAF's squad rotation, Carthcart can be guaranteed something like 25 games this season if he sticks around.
Furthermore, as regards O'shea, bearing in mind how good he was at fullback last year, I will be very surprised if we moved him inside at any one point this term, especially if Carthcart is around.
Anyway, my point is this. Last season Evans got ahead of Wes in the pecking order during the time Wes was out injured. Because SAF still rotated the squad. IMO if Carthcart was to stick around, I see the same thing happening.
We shall see how it all pans out.
Much older? 
He's only a year older than he was when he finished the season as highest appearance maker.
There is absolutely no chance in hell Cathcart (not being funny but if you're rating him so highly surely you must know what his name is?) will play 25 games next season unless swine flu decimates our defensive ranks. Yes, Evans got ahead of Wes when Wes was out (which was nearly all season), so surely you can see that Cathcart would have to get ahead of Evans AND Wes?
He's only a year older than he was when he finished the season as highest appearance maker.There is absolutely no chance in hell Cathcart (not being funny but if you're rating him so highly surely you must know what his name is?) will play 25 games next season unless swine flu decimates our defensive ranks. Yes, Evans got ahead of Wes when Wes was out (which was nearly all season), so surely you can see that Cathcart would have to get ahead of Evans AND Wes?
Nothing wrong with an average of about 30 games really considering he's rarely been first choice. I think it's every bit as likely he'll play 30+ games this season as it is that he won't - his worst injury was a broken bone in his foot, and like Michael Owen has said, there's not much you can do when someone stands on your foot and breaks a bone in it.
I don't even think Wes' situation is hugely relevant to the discussion in isolation to be honest - even with Rio regularly struggling, Evans picking up occasional knocks, Wes out all season near enough and right-back injuries meaning JOS was rarely an option in the centre, we still got through the campaign well enough and ended up winning the league. How many games would Cathcart have got last season had he been around? I can barely think of 3/4 he'd have really come into contention for. If we hope Wes can have a more healthy season then I just don't see the argument for keeping Cathcart around.
Unbelievable prediction and no surprise it's you making it. Evans featured in a little over 20 games last season and this was with Brown out and Rio injured for quite a bit and when we were involved in more matches (world club cup, super cup) but you think Cathcart will get 25 games with Brown back, Rio should be fitter, and Evans ahead of him
Yeah okay......
Was quite inevitable Wes was going to go off injured today after this discussion wasn't it?
Cathcart has been playing fairly well so far.
Very impressed with Cathcart tonight barring the near own goal! Showed good anticipation, made some great blocks, held the line well and his distribution was excellent. There wasn't really much of a chance to see his pace but he looks a player.
I indulged in a bit of hyperbole it's true but you get what I mean. He has had one freak season in terms of being injury free and he is a year older now. I expect more of them same for him sadly.Much older?
That is where I feel you are wrong. He only needs to get ahead of Wes. Don't forget we need two back up center backs because SAF likes to rotate our squad. Evans is one and Wes is the other. If Wes is out injured I see no reason why Cathcart can't edge ahead of him, if he takes his chance.There is absolutely no chance in hell Cathcart (not being funny but if you're rating him so highly surely you must know what his name is?) will play 25 games next season unless swine flu decimates our defensive ranks. Yes, Evans got ahead of Wes when Wes was out (which was nearly all season), so surely you can see that Cathcart would have to get ahead of Evans AND Wes?
He needs lots of first-team football, and won't get ahead of Brown.
Evans needed Ferdinand's injury problems to get a game. Cathcart will need a lot more. We're still decently stocked at the back, so Cathcart shouldn't hang around as backup.
Evans needed Ferdinand's injury problems to get a game. Cathcart will need a lot more. We're still decently stocked at the back, so Cathcart shouldn't hang around as backup.
Actually Rubberman, centre back is the only position that Fergie tends not to rotate too much if he can avoid it.
What?! That could only happen with a serious injury crisis. fecking hope not.
Fergie doesn't make the same spaz-ups about player positions that you do.
Rough centre-back pecking order
Ferdinand and Vidic
Brown and Evans
O'Shea
Cathcart/Neville
So at least 4 specific players have to be injured for Cathcart to get a game.
Spaz ups
I doubt even you believe Brown ont be injured a lot this season and I seriously doubt you believe Fergie will move O'shea from a fullback position, where he is probably going to be first choice.
That leaves just Rio, Vidic and Evans. We all know Rio has his back issues so will probably need rest. Which would leave Evans and Vidic in the team a number of times with Cathcart on the bench as cover on a match day.
& that scenario hasn't even arisen from an of an injury crisis.
& if we add to that weaker opponents, potential carling cup and fa cup games, dead rubber champions league games, SAF's rotation + potential injuries.....
Fact is we have 2 spots available as back up to Rio and Vidic. & IMO the second spot is up for grabs, if Cathcart doesn't go out on loan.
O'Shea will be preferred to Cathcart at centre-back in every case unless we have no full-backs. And Brown. And you could argue Neville as well.
Even if we play Vidić-Evans, Cathcart really needs games and won't do anything on the bench.
I say we loan out Cathcart and use Corry Evans/De Laet as backup instead. De Laet has the added bonus of being able to play all across the back four.
There will be interest in Cathcart in any case.
Even if we play Vidić-Evans, Cathcart really needs games and won't do anything on the bench.
I say we loan out Cathcart and use Corry Evans/De Laet as backup instead. De Laet has the added bonus of being able to play all across the back four.
There will be interest in Cathcart in any case.
He would have got more but he also has spells out with injury
Those are less than 6 matches. You make it sound like our number of games will dramatically reduce.
Rather, it's because I think Wes will most likely be injured often, Rio will need rest for his back & SAF rotates his squad because of the many matches we have. No to mention the inevitable injuries and possibly suspensions we will have through out the season.but you think Cathcart will get 25 games with Brown back, Rio should be fitter, and Evans ahead of him
Spaz ups
I doubt even you believe Brown ont be injured a lot this season and I seriously doubt you believe Fergie will move O'shea from a fullback position, where he is probably going to be first choice.
That leaves just Rio, Vidic and Evans. We all know Rio has his back issues so will probably need rest. Which would leave Evans and Vidic in the team a number of times with Cathcart on the bench as cover on a match day.
& that scenario hasn't even arisen from an of an injury crisis.
& if we add to that weaker opponents, potential carling cup and fa cup games, dead rubber champions league games, SAF's rotation + potential injuries.....
Fact is we have 2 spots available as back up to Rio and Vidic. & IMO the second spot is up for grabs, if Cathcart doesn't go out on loan.
O'Shea won't be first choice full back. In fact I think he'll be third choice. He'll probably play there a fair bit, because Brown and Rafael will be injured. O'Shea won't be pigeon-holed like that though. He'd play at CB if three of Vidic, Ferdinand, Brown and Evans are injured, and he'd be on the bench if Rio was rested ahead of Cathcart, as would Brown.
Brown may be injured a bit, but it's stupid just to write him off for the season and say that we have a spot free.
We only need Cathcart in the event of an injury crisis. It's possible, but not likely to affect more than a handful of games. The only way he'd play 25 would be if that crisis happened early-ish and Cathcart made massive strides. It's a very, very long shot, and it shows you're a bit of a spaz, Chief.
"Brown may be injured a bit, but it's stupid just to write him off for the season and say that we have a spot free."
I never wrote him off or said we had a spot free either, Sincher. I'm instead saying Wes is vulnerable to being over taken, if a Cathcart isn't loaned out, because he is likely to be injured a fair bit.
As for O'shea he has earned his starting spot. It's up to the others to try and dislodge him.
I never wrote him off or said we had a spot free either, Sincher. I'm instead saying Wes is vulnerable to being over taken, if a Cathcart isn't loaned out, because he is likely to be injured a fair bit.
As for O'shea he has earned his starting spot. It's up to the others to try and dislodge him.
We shall see.
I'll bet you right now that if Cathcart stays he'd play no more than 500 minutes for the first team this season. Not really enough for a player at his stage in development.
I'll bet you right now that if Cathcart stays he'd play no more than 500 minutes for the first team this season. Not really enough for a player at his stage in development.
The fact that SAF wanted to see him in competitive football means that he probably hasn't decided what to do with him this year. I would probably be tempted to keep him here until January unless he has a chance of playing regularly on loan at a Premiership club. Hopefully he can also force his way into the Northern Ireland full squad as well this year to push him on.
You said this:
you said:
It isn't up for grabs, because we have Wes and O'Shea. It would only be up for grabs if we didn't.
That might be a fair approach, especially as there is more likelihood of CC games in the 1st half of the season, and he could certainly play in those.
It's a tricky one. I'd probably err on the side of keeping him just because of the slight possibility of being fecked by injuries, but thinking purely in terms of his development, he's probably better off on loan.
Whilst accepting that right now, he is down the pecking order and I regret that I missed the game today, so can't say anything with regards to how he played, but if he has continued to develop the way he was prior to the season away on loan, then we'll have an excellent centre half on our hands.
I personally rate him (this is from watching at youth and reserve team level) a better player than Evans, but that was then, and untill I see him again on a regular basis I can't say if he's continued to improve or has stagnated.
Looking at our "first team" defensive corps, we've got Neville, Brown, Ferdinand, Fabio and to a lesser extent Rafeal whom have been frequently injured over the past 12 months or more in some cases. However we've been lucky in that with the size of the corps we've just about coped with the injuries. The quesion is as most people have stated will he get enough playing time to help him develop. I don't think another season in the Championship would help, but perhaps another Premiership club would want him for 6 months. The future the centre of defence is Cathcart and Evans for me, but I'm not the one in charge making the decisions, and unless Fergie comes on here, none of us are making the decisions.
I personally rate him (this is from watching at youth and reserve team level) a better player than Evans, but that was then, and untill I see him again on a regular basis I can't say if he's continued to improve or has stagnated.
Looking at our "first team" defensive corps, we've got Neville, Brown, Ferdinand, Fabio and to a lesser extent Rafeal whom have been frequently injured over the past 12 months or more in some cases. However we've been lucky in that with the size of the corps we've just about coped with the injuries. The quesion is as most people have stated will he get enough playing time to help him develop. I don't think another season in the Championship would help, but perhaps another Premiership club would want him for 6 months. The future the centre of defence is Cathcart and Evans for me, but I'm not the one in charge making the decisions, and unless Fergie comes on here, none of us are making the decisions.
Not sure any prem club would take a punt on such a young player. Burnley, maybe, but that would be a baptism of fire I think. The Champo or staying would be better.
I rate Cathcart but Evans was clearly better all the way through the ranks for me.
Chief - going back to what I said earlier - tell me which games you think Cathcart would have played in if he'd been kept at the club last season. If you can come up with even 3/4 that aren't Carling Cup games then I'll be amazed/you'll be mental, let alone 25.
Chief - going back to what I said earlier - tell me which games you think Cathcart would have played in if he'd been kept at the club last season. If you can come up with even 3/4 that aren't Carling Cup games then I'll be amazed/you'll be mental, let alone 25.
I'd like to see him stay and succeed, but as most have pointed out - he's not going to get the playing time he needs if he stays this season.
He needs a loan move to (ideally) a Premier League team (maybe Wolves, Hull or Burnley) so he can get some consistent 1st team football - much like Evans had at Sunderland.
He needs a loan move to (ideally) a Premier League team (maybe Wolves, Hull or Burnley) so he can get some consistent 1st team football - much like Evans had at Sunderland.
I agree with that. He did equally aswell as Wes did the previous season
I agree with this. A good loan move would be best for his development. But I can also see the argument that some injury prone defenders in the squad may make him useful to keep around.
So do I. In fact, I think he was better than Wes was the previous season.
For you it isn't because you don't see O'shea as a starter. I do. & AFAIK Fergie always rest his starters at some point during the season.
Yes, but not to the extent of giving the 4th/5th choice centre-half 25 games.