I don´t want a catalan independence with blood, so I hope everything works out for the best. Whatever is our future status.
The future in or out? nobody knows
Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain
- Thread starter barros
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I don´t want a catalan independence with blood, so I hope everything works out for the best. Whatever is our future status.
The future in or out? nobody knows
Catalan police better hope none of their homes ever set on fire.
Make it happen just to piss off Neymar.
This are not catalan police. Catalan police actually mildly protected one electoral collegue and more than one was crying
I agree with you, it would absolutely be a close vote. A vote with proper campaigns from both sides and proper information given out (Everyone knows that's tough in any referendum) is the only way to end it.
I should say I'm not Spanish, I've lived here in Madrid for only 4 and a half years or so, but in that time it has just worsened and worsened. I won't be getting better after this either. Awful to see.
The least you should do, is get 90 votes for the referendum in the parlament, seeing that it takes 90 to change the electoral law passing a referendum that could trigger an unilateral independence of Catalunya in the next 48 hours with only 72 votes is a joke, a bad, sad and petty joke.
What's the problem with this referendum? Is hurried to be used as a political tool, preys on the nationalistic thoughts of people (that have been fueled with lies for decades, but specially since the 2008 crisis) and could trigger a declaration of independence by a government that declared last elections as a "de facto" referendum where the "yes" got 49% of the votes, meaning that less than half of the Catalan votes would trigger an independence with a referendum approved with less votes than what would be necessary to change something as basic as the electoral law.
You ever heard the saying "Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%"? Well it's worst here, the mob of the 49% will not only prevail over the 51%, they would also have ruling over the whole of the Spanish country with a decision like that
is 6 am here in canada, in 1 or 2 hours I predict another raid from Guardia Civil. But I am so sad, angry and exhausted. I can´t bare to see it again now. Need some rest.
Very sad day
Very sad day
Surely this kind of shite won't help the Spanish government keep Catalonia as territory of Spain.
The government are basically doing everything they shouldn't be doing.
Is no government concerned about optics any more? They all seem to be doing to exact thing that'll sow opposition to them.
Is no government concerned about optics any more? They all seem to be doing to exact thing that'll sow opposition to them.
probably already been posted...but, this is not cool
Whoever gave these orders is an idiot. Spain doing their absolute best to advance Catalonia's separatist agenda.
There really won't be a coming back from this. I wonder what happens if Catalonia's parliament declares independence tomorrow. Also, what happens if Catalonia's police start attacking Spanish police and guarda? Has Madrid really think about this (both seem very likely to happen if things continue like this)?
What the feck is wrong with the Spanish Authorities? If I was a Catalonian opposed to independence I'd vote for it just to spite these bastards.
Could just relocate them somewhere in Spain.
Morons of the highest order. It is absolute clear that neither Catalonia's government, nor the citizens are going to be intimidated. So what is Spain's end goal here? Do they want a war?
I believe the central government is drooling over that possibility. That would give them the excuse to suspend the mossos and re-instate Policia and Guardia Civil in Catalunya
That works only if Catalonia doesn't oppose it. If the Catalonia police go against them, then there is as close to a civil war as you can have in Western Europe. And that would be a war that Spain cannot win.
Disgraceful by the spanish governament. But with PP and Rajoy it isn't surprising. Unfortunately this will probably end badly.
Shocking. They were doing nothing.
He's just busy having a barrel of Wine but he'll get on it right after that.
If Catalunya opposes it then the government is on their right to use the article 155 (acting against the interest of Spain which I consider granted if Mossos attack against Policia and GC) which allows them to force any decision down an Autonomous community throat by asking the president of said Comunity to do it, if he refuses then they have to use the senate (the senate, NOT the congress) to apply that order directly by legal means with supermajority there, and PP + Ciudadanos control 211 of the 266 members, so take that for granted. Meaning that the central government would de facto rule over Catalunya with no one to oppose them but the people
Both parties are forcing events to get what they want imo, the Catalan government want to be victimized and gain repercusion with a referendum that never should've happened with honest politicians, and the Spanish government is just waiting for the Catalans to cross each line, one by one, to remove them from power and eat away the independent competencies Calatunya has had for the last decades.
Wow. Always had the impression the Spanish police are heavy-handed but that's just disturbing.
Worryingly this type of oppressive environment often leads to resistance groups/paramilitaries forming.
Worryingly this type of oppressive environment often leads to resistance groups/paramilitaries forming.
I know that they have the legal power to do so. But they probably risk a civil war by doing so, and as European history tells us, civil wars aren't very healthy for the governments. The problem is still political, but now it looks that it will become nationalist. What can be the best scenario for Spain in that case? Kill a lot of Catalase, get expulsed from EU, cripple the economy and have 10m citizens who literally hate them. As Serbia can tell us, there could be only a big loser in that scenario and Spain is seriously risking going past point of no return.
Worryingly, that's where the PP thrive, in his anti-terror ideology and declarations that they sold (and people grew to believe) were effective after the Basque problem.
I don't like thinking like this, but if some group like that were to rise in Catalunya, that would benefit the current central government, they used that effectively in the 90's and 00's, in this era of anti-terrorism panic that would be their dream.
Happily, I don't see that happening now, even less in a Catalunya that suffered from terrorism recently and even years before with ETA, probably not many people would back taking that way
They should have used the 155 a week ago to avoid all this
0:34
https://video.repubblica.it/dossier.../286043/286661?ref=RHPPLF-BL-I0-C8-P2-S1.8-T2
fecking disgusting! That's pure violence!
https://video.repubblica.it/dossier.../286043/286661?ref=RHPPLF-BL-I0-C8-P2-S1.8-T2
fecking disgusting! That's pure violence!
I think that's an apocaliptic view, we're a long way from a violent conflict, even the protesters base their argument on "democracy" "passive" and "peaceful", and then if we got to an absurd escalate of violence, there wouldn't be any civil war, Catalunya wouldn't have the tools to sustain an open armed conflict against a 1st world military force.
Probably it would be repression in Catalunya with a government watching everything close and transitioning/nurturing the next wave of "catalan politics" that they could have a leash on.
Probably, but it has such big times implications that they wanted to strong-arms the Catalan politicias scaring them with prison time, but they didn't buy that bluff
Civil war? Spain is going past the point of no return? This is such an incredibly dramatic take.
People like Carvajal are giving me a good idea why Catalunians might want independence to be honest.
Also, what the feck the Spanish gouvernment is stupid. If they hadn't intervened, independence would most likely have been rejected and this would have been settled. Now though?
Also, what the feck the Spanish gouvernment is stupid. If they hadn't intervened, independence would most likely have been rejected and this would have been settled. Now though?
I know a few catalans who were pro-referendum but would've noted No (and they tell me No would've won) but after today's events and police violence, they're telling me they would now vote yes because the way the central governenmet is handling this is absurd.
I suspect many catalans might be feeling like this right now.
I suspect many catalans might be feeling like this right now.
The Spanish goverment outshining even trump in idiocy, unbelievable.
These are fecking disgraceful scenes. The Spanish government have some very well deserved criticism incoming on the world stage. These scenes are reminiscent of the scenes in the Ukraine a few years back with very heavy handed police/military with protesters.
Predictable. It's all playing in their hands. Really stupid move by Rajoy.
Hi just slept 2 hours.
A girl of one of the videos that we posted, was "touched" by the police, was put down, bended the back behind the back with the hand up and was broken on purpose each finger one by one. A guy is having surgery on his eye, not only infear of losing his eye but his life because they shot a rubber bullet, forbidded to use by the police by law in catalonia.
And hundreds more injured.
In a small town, I mean a towny town, they went full force wwith tear gas, with people with the same attitude, hands up and shoutting "we are peaceful people"
I read comments here just in diagonial, about article 155, about terrorism, about war...What is going on here? what is that crazyiness to think (specially from spaniards) that a government can reach that point ina democracy in the XXI century?
Independently about breaking the law or not. How is possible that they did what they did with this policemen repression? How you can THINK, that is a way to act against THOUSANDS of peoples and a c2 or 3 MILLIONS that were prepared to JUST VOTE?
IT just can´t enter in my head that you justify what the spanish government did. It does not make sense. How they can use rubber bulletss and tear gas just "to retire material"? against pacific people? HOW!!
It does not make sense as well that ou think that this will help in anything to improve the situation, that if the situation that you are seeking is having millions of people oppressed and under your service as a colony.
Spain not only have a problem with their government but with people that are nostalgic of the dictatorship, and not just a few, and 10 million people voting the PP is a prove for that, they don´t feel catalonia as spanish, so why we should feel spanish?
The spanish government had succeded in blew that referendum out, they did it the days before, and they did it during the day with police brutality, putting down servers, too much to make that referendum valid. Catalan government would make a big mistake to take any decisions based in that referendum because it would not be legitimized. I am sure that, even with 99% of good will putting the ballot inside the ballot box, it had been duplicities and none controlled voting. That many votes had been sized by the police and will not be counted. This referendum had been compromised and with no guarantees.
Said that, it shown the difference between Catalonia and Spain. Catalonia wanted in all the process to negociate a agreed refernedum, negociate and found always the door closed. Spanish government only used the judicial force and police force.
unfortunately, internationally speaking, officially they do not give a damn. it will be comments of outrage that will be soon forgotten. We are alone as we were in 1714 when England and Austria betrayed us broken the treaty against Spain and France. We are alone like when the Allies decided not enter to Spain during the WWII because they prefered a fascist dictator (that helped Hitler) than a possibility of a communist Republic.
We are alone again and is dispearing. but we will continue and Europe and the world will see again like Spain will represse us once more without moving a finger
A girl of one of the videos that we posted, was "touched" by the police, was put down, bended the back behind the back with the hand up and was broken on purpose each finger one by one. A guy is having surgery on his eye, not only infear of losing his eye but his life because they shot a rubber bullet, forbidded to use by the police by law in catalonia.
And hundreds more injured.
In a small town, I mean a towny town, they went full force wwith tear gas, with people with the same attitude, hands up and shoutting "we are peaceful people"
I read comments here just in diagonial, about article 155, about terrorism, about war...What is going on here? what is that crazyiness to think (specially from spaniards) that a government can reach that point ina democracy in the XXI century?
Independently about breaking the law or not. How is possible that they did what they did with this policemen repression? How you can THINK, that is a way to act against THOUSANDS of peoples and a c2 or 3 MILLIONS that were prepared to JUST VOTE?
IT just can´t enter in my head that you justify what the spanish government did. It does not make sense. How they can use rubber bulletss and tear gas just "to retire material"? against pacific people? HOW!!
It does not make sense as well that ou think that this will help in anything to improve the situation, that if the situation that you are seeking is having millions of people oppressed and under your service as a colony.
Spain not only have a problem with their government but with people that are nostalgic of the dictatorship, and not just a few, and 10 million people voting the PP is a prove for that, they don´t feel catalonia as spanish, so why we should feel spanish?
The spanish government had succeded in blew that referendum out, they did it the days before, and they did it during the day with police brutality, putting down servers, too much to make that referendum valid. Catalan government would make a big mistake to take any decisions based in that referendum because it would not be legitimized. I am sure that, even with 99% of good will putting the ballot inside the ballot box, it had been duplicities and none controlled voting. That many votes had been sized by the police and will not be counted. This referendum had been compromised and with no guarantees.
Said that, it shown the difference between Catalonia and Spain. Catalonia wanted in all the process to negociate a agreed refernedum, negociate and found always the door closed. Spanish government only used the judicial force and police force.
unfortunately, internationally speaking, officially they do not give a damn. it will be comments of outrage that will be soon forgotten. We are alone as we were in 1714 when England and Austria betrayed us broken the treaty against Spain and France. We are alone like when the Allies decided not enter to Spain during the WWII because they prefered a fascist dictator (that helped Hitler) than a possibility of a communist Republic.
We are alone again and is dispearing. but we will continue and Europe and the world will see again like Spain will represse us once more without moving a finger
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This whole thing reminded me of one of my favourite Orwell quotes, which ironically was written in Homage to catalonia: “When I see an actual flesh-and-blood worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to ask myself which side I am on.”
It's scary how everywhere police always seems so ready and enthusiastic in using violence against common people who pose no threat.
It's scary how everywhere police always seems so ready and enthusiastic in using violence against common people who pose no threat.
Why do central governments insist on violence where less force will be fully sufficient. Stupid.
