[Marwood]

Erik Ten Hag

No manager wants unathletic midfielders without technique.

Every manager, every system, those aiming for trophies, need midfielders who can run, have a good first touch and pass a ball.

It's not an Amorim thing or a requirement of his particular system. It's universal.

There isn't a midfield set up or system that can have current Casemrio. Not at the top level.

 

[Godfather]

Thought he was good

 

[Alemar]

Given Mainoo is suspended, he may start alongside Ugarte vs Arsenal - unless Amorim tries something else (like Yoro CB with Mazraoui CDM or Bruno in a pivot with Mount starting)

 

[Borys]

Given Mainoo is suspended, he may start alongside Ugarte vs Arsenal - unless Amorim tries something else (like Yoro CB with Mazraoui CDM or Bruno in a pivot with Mount starting)

He will most certainly start those 2, even if Mainoo was able to play. He's been picking the starting XI and subs to make this happen.

Amorim isn't going to experiment in that game, because what we've been doing is so far fairly effective. I also don't think Mainoo would be that involved anyway. Looks miles off pace/match rhythm.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

No manager wants unathletic midfielders without technique.

Every manager, every system, those aiming for trophies, need midfielders who can run, have a good first touch and pass a ball.

It's not an Amorim thing or a requirement of his particular system. It's universal.

There isn't a midfield set up or system that can have current Casemrio. Not at the top level.

Not sure why you feel the need to state the obvious

 

[Marwood]

Not sure why you feel the need to state the obvious

Well because you saying "Amorim likes athletic midfielders with technique" is an extremely obvious statement.

Amorim and every other manager on the planet.

Casemiro doesn't not suit just Amorim. He doesn't at 33 suit any team/manager looking to win the big trophies.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I genuinely don't see what else he's being asked to do compared to the previous "systems". We are not being hit in transition (like under Ten Hag), the counters we suffered were mostly direct balls that the defenders struggled with (in terms of pace). What actually happens is the opposition is able to run past Casemiro in midfield and is targeting him whenever he's isolated.

He looks super heavy (I'd bet he gained a few pounds compared to beginning of the season) and seems to me very uncomfortable in possession. I don't see the "system" changing here, he just is in bad shape or simply too old. He never was a nimble ball carrier like Matic, so he is close to being useless as as a DM at the moment.

That said, he will most likely be used as a more of an attacker in that midfield duo. He still has a good vision and passing IMO.

I'd agree. On paper, this current setup is certainly not worse for him to operate as a midfielder. I think he's finding it hard to get rhythm being rotated and find his role in the team because of the contrast to what he was asked to do before whether by instruction or instinct; transitional play (lots of through balls and fast switches) whilst covering large areas and plugging leaks everywhere. Now, he is playing a far more orthodox midfield two but to excel, he needs to rely on tactical and technical improvements i.e the opposite of his last 2 years with us.

He certainly has it in him but it is a surprise to see a player of his experience find himself like a fish out of a pond these past 2-3 games. What happens in the summer though is the big question.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Should be sold this summer

 

[Alemar]

Should be sold this summer

Do you think it’s an easy sale? Remember us trying to sell Alexis?

 

[Borys]

I'd agree. On paper, this current setup is certainly not worse for him to operate as a midfielder. I think he's finding it hard to get rhythm being rotated and find his role in the team because of the contrast to what he was asked to do before whether by instruction or instinct; transitional play (lots of through balls and fast switches) whilst covering large areas and plugging leaks everywhere. Now, he is playing a far more orthodox midfield two but to excel, he needs to rely on tactical and technical improvements i.e the opposite of his last 2 years with us.

He certainly has it in him but it is a surprise to see a player of his experience find himself like a fish out of a pond these past 2-3 games. What happens in the summer though is the big question.

That is exactly my feeling as well, I am quite surprised he looks so bad now. It's not like he's expected to do this and that, it's the basics he's failing at and it seems to me it's purely fitness at the moment. Whether that is age or too much weight it's difficult to tell, but it's not looking good at all. He looked decent with Ugarte so maybe that still works as our first choice midfield for remaining of the season, but him and Mainoo/Eriksen is no-go.

 

[Rodgerzzz]

Definitely one of our weaker players yesterday, kept getting caught in possession & misplacing passes or playing hopeful long balls. Maybe just an off game because he has been okay recently.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Do you think it’s an easy sale? Remember us trying to sell Alexis?

Nope. But highly paid executed have to justify their position

 

[flameinthesun]

Definitely one of our weaker players yesterday, kept getting caught in possession & misplacing passes or playing hopeful long balls. Maybe just an off game because he has been okay recently.

It's just his game. For someone who has played in midfield his entire career he is very slow on the ball. It may also just be the speed of the premier league is too much for him. when things are slow he is steady and fine but as soon as the pace picks up his passing, touch and tackling go out the window. I don't think it's an age thing, I just think if he's not in a 3 and able to be at the base keeping things simple then he struggles once the game gets faster. Against Arsenal I'd start with Bruno and Ugarte in the midfield, with Rashford/Garnacho and Mount in the two 10 positions.

 

[romufc]

Think this season we should only use Casemiro in games we will dominate at home when we want to give Ugarte a break. No chance he can deal with more dynamic midfield, he seems lost off the ball, he isnt sure what the manager wants him to do.

 

[Rodgerzzz]

It's just his game. For someone who has played in midfield his entire career he is very slow on the ball. It may also just be the speed of the premier league is too much for him. when things are slow he is steady and fine but as soon as the pace picks up his passing, touch and tackling go out the window. I don't think it's an age thing, I just think if he's not in a 3 and able to be at the base keeping things simple then he struggles once the game gets faster. Against Arsenal I'd start with Bruno and Ugarte in the midfield, with Rashford/Garnacho and Mount in the two 10 positions.

I totally agree with this, in a flat two he gets a bit exposed. When you think about it the base of that triangle yesterday was De Ligt and he could ping it around fairly easily, but then we have seen Case in that position against Bodo Glimt and it wasn't exactly a renaissance performance

I really want all of our guys to do well, but after 3 matches I'm struggling to see where Case is going to fit to be effective.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

Nope. But highly paid executed have to justify their position

So you think these 'highly paid executives' can magic up some interest in overpaid, past their prime players?

 

[Big Andy]

Nope. But highly paid executed have to justify their position

Killing him is a bit strong mate, no matter how much it costs

 

[Yakuza_devils]

I'm just so glad that the DOF that signed Casemiro for 70M, Antony 80M, Mount 50M, Hojlund 70M, Martinez 60M are gone. Crazy unsustainable spending that could bankrupt the club.

 

[Borys]

Amorim not even giving him a go today even though Bruno was so poor and Ugarte on yellow card I think gives us a picture where he sees Casemiro.

 

[NZT-One]

Amorim not even giving him a go today even though Bruno was so poor and Ugarte on yellow card I think gives us a picture where he sees Casemiro.

Might also have been pre-planned given the minutes Casemiro played. I think, given that we tried to play a little more conservatively, the chances to make it work with Bruno were even a bit higher than in the last game. And given that we had Mount on the pitch who theoretically could also bolster midfield, the combination seems fine to me.

That being said, I would have played Ugarte and Casemiro as well in this game. Outcome might have been the same though-

 

[Isotope]

Amorim not even giving him a go today even though Bruno was so poor and Ugarte on yellow card I think gives us a picture where he sees Casemiro.

Yeh. I did question why Amorim doesn't see Ugarte & Case as midfield pairing. It seems like the "rotation" excuse doesn't fly either.

But it's too early to make anything absolute yet.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Yeh. I did question why Amorim doesn't see Ugarte & Case as midfield pairing. It seems like the "rotation" excuse doesn't fly either.

Not when he subbed Casemiro off after 66 minutes vs Everton (same time as Bruno). You would've thought he did that with the Arsenal game in mind. Perhaps he didn't impress in training this week.

 

[Isotope]

Not when he subbed Casemiro off after 66 minutes vs Everton (same time as Bruno). You would've thought he did that with the Arsenal game in mind. Perhaps he didn't impress in training this week.

I meant, there's excuse that they didn't play together because Amorim wanted to rotate players. But now he had a chance to rotate the midfield, but he didn't.

But meh..., it's still hard to tell what's going on at this point.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

I meant, there's excuse that they didn't play together because Amorim wanted to rotate players. But now he had a chance to rotate the midfield, but he didn't.

Ah, gotcha. Nevertheless, I am perplexed as to why he took him off after 66 minutes vs Everton if he didn't plan on giving him minutes vs Arsenal. Hopefully Eriksen will be back soon anyway to help bolster our options and keep Bruno further forward.

 

[Isotope]

Ah, gotcha. Nevertheless, I am perplexed as to why he took him off after 66 minutes vs Everton if he didn't plan on giving him minutes vs Arsenal. Hopefully Eriksen will be back soon anyway to help bolster our options and keep Bruno further forward.

Maybe he's still experimenting, and also managing Case for more "winnable" matches. We have 9 games this December, and prioritizing by rotation is extremely important.

 

[bosnian_red]

Amorim not even giving him a go today even though Bruno was so poor and Ugarte on yellow card I think gives us a picture where he sees Casemiro.

Didn't think Bruno did poorly at all. Worked hard defensively, wasn't careless with the ball, passed it well. Things just fell apart with our front 3 being physically dominated

 

[Borys]

Didn't think Bruno did poorly at all. Worked hard defensively, wasn't careless with the ball, passed it well. Things just fell apart with our front 3 being physically dominated

He did, he was one player I remember giving the ball away cheaply at least 3 times. That's something that he does, which is why you don't put him in areas that can actually cause troubles for us with too many our players in opponents half. This one is on the manager, not Bruno btw as we all knew this was going to happen.

He run around a lot and put himself about, got involved, did better than I expected defensively even if I think was nothing more than ok. But everything that was slightly more difficult he failed at. I understand Amorim wanted his legs there but I think it was a mistake. Casemiro long passes and more importantly physicality would've been more useful out there.

I mentioned this lately that this will be an interesting relationship to watch (Amorim - Bruno) as I was slightly worried there is no natural position for Bruno and that Ruben might try to force him into the team. Even more interesting what happens next. With both Bruno and Casemiro.

 

[bosnian_red]

He did, he was one player I remember giving the ball away cheaply at least 3 times. That's something that he does, which is why you don't put him in areas that can actually cause troubles for us with too many our players in opponents half. This one is on the manager, not Bruno btw as we all knew this was going to happen.

He run around a lot and put himself about, got involved, did better than I expected defensively even if I think was nothing more than ok. But everything that was slightly more difficult he failed at. I understand Amorim wanted his legs there but I think it was a mistake. Casemiro long passes and more importantly physicality would've been more useful out there.

I mentioned this lately that this will be an interesting relationship to watch (Amorim - Bruno) as I was slightly worried there is no natural position for Bruno and that Ruben might try to force him into the team. Even more interesting what happens next. With both Bruno and Casemiro.

I guess there are different ways to look at it. Bruno has been our best attack minded player under Amorim for me and has shown a good level as a CM, and all things considered I thought he did fine yesterday. By no means did he look out of position or a problem by any stretch, and especially in the first half he had a really good impact. 2nd half we all struggled but that was less on him and more our general struggle from set pieces eventually breaking us down. But he hasn't been reckless with the ball, he's set the tempo for us and we've dominated the ball every game, he's created chances and progressed it well, he hasn't been careless on the ball in his usual fashion, and he's done a good job defensively.

He's not being forced into the team, he's in it because he deserves to be. Casemiro I do agree could have had a good role yesterday, but the main reason for it would've been his set piece defending where we seemingly don't know how to clear near post headers.

 

[Borys]

I guess there are different ways to look at it. Bruno has been our best attack minded player under Amorim for me and has shown a good level as a CM, and all things considered I thought he did fine yesterday. By no means did he look out of position or a problem by any stretch, and especially in the first half he had a really good impact. 2nd half we all struggled but that was less on him and more our general struggle from set pieces eventually breaking us down. But he hasn't been reckless with the ball, he's set the tempo for us and we've dominated the ball every game, he's created chances and progressed it well, he hasn't been careless on the ball in his usual fashion, and he's done a good job defensively.

He's not being forced into the team, he's in it because he deserves to be. Casemiro I do agree could have had a good role yesterday, but the main reason for it would've been his set piece defending where we seemingly don't know how to clear near post headers.

Exactly. I don't think Bruno was really bad yesterday and deserves too much criticism, but I also believe he gets away with a lot of loose passes/miscontrols that Casemiro is heavily criticised for. The physicality (mainly defending headers) is the only reason why I think not playing Casemiro was a mistake, but the main point is IMO it shows how low Amorim rates Casemiro and frankly I can't argue that decision as I believe Case is done.

 

[Isotope]

So what’s going on with him and Amorim? Has Amorim said something about him?

 

[T_Model101]

Thought he could have done a job today, but we have plenty of games coming up.
We've at least seen that Amorim is planning to utilise the squad, unlike Ten Hag

 

[Sylar]

We miss him for defending corners and set pieces. And in an attacking sense too

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Thought he was our best player today. That's not saying much considering the performance of others. Some well-weighted progressive passes that initiated a few attacks.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I don't think he's started a game alongside Ugarte yet has he? It has to happen for the game against City.

 

[JB08]

I don't think he's started a game alongside Ugarte yet has he? It has to happen for the game against City.

I think we'll see Ugarte and Mainoo (for better or for worse). Not sure Casemiro has the energy to play in midfield against City.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

I think we'll see Ugarte and Mainoo (for better or for worse). Not sure Casemiro has the energy to play in midfield against City.

He definitely can play in the middle against this version of City.

 

[JB08]

He definitely can play in the middle against this version of City.

Not sure I agree to be honest. He lacks in mobility just as much as they do, but doesn't have the technical abilities they have to make up for it.

We should be taking advantage of their weaknesses, not lowering ourselves to them.

 

[harms]

I don't think he's started a game alongside Ugarte yet has he? It has to happen for the game against City.

They've started together against Barnsley, Leicester & Chelsea? But Casemiro is going to get exposed even against this version of City, I'd imagine.

 

[Ekeke]

They've started together against Barnsley, Leicester & Chelsea? But Casemiro is going to get exposed even against this version of City, I'd imagine.

All our DMs get exposed. There he is making 7 tackles, 1 interception, 3 clearances and 2 blocked shots, 0 fouls, 1 aerial which is a very large workload for any central player for any team and yet our opponents still broke well, had some nice linkup and a couple of chances to get more than 1 goal with 15 shots although only 2 on target.

 

[harms]

All our DMs get exposed. There he is making 7 tackles, 1 interception, 3 clearances and 2 blocked shots, 0 fouls, 1 aerial which is a very large workload for any central player for any team and yet our opponents still broke well, had some nice linkup and a couple of chances to get more than 1 goal with 15 shots although only 2 on target.

Sadly, in Casemiro's case the amount of tackles usually directly correlates with the amount of chances the opponents get. Even in good games like tonight he's extremely committal and always goes for a tackle — and when he misses it (which happens fairly often nowadays), he's left there, completely outplayed, and the forward usually has a free run at our goal.

At his peak he was a little sharper (which meant that he usually went into a tackle exactly at the right time and not a moment too late) and much, much more athletic and mobile, which also helped him to cover a lot of ground. In this current state he's a liability against any side where the opposing forwards can dribble or pass the ball around with pace. His on the ball quality and experience is enough to produce good performances against poor sides — it's not a coincidence that he truly shined in our League Cup fixtures this season; or he can still do a job in a low block when we park the bus without any intention of contesting the midfield, but I don't think that Amorim prefers that or is going to choose that style against City.