[Cassidy]

That's just how some players are and if I remember correctly in many seasons under Fergie we didn't get properly fired up till deep in the season, I suppose it actually makes sense somewhat , you'd rather be going full throttle when games come thick and fast not to blow your load early on and get knackered when it matters.

Madrid in recent years is a pretty good example of it I'd say.

This isn’t Fergie era. The physicallity of the PL is totally different now. You’ll get run over and left behind if you’re not ready from the go.

 

[Red the Bear]

This isn’t Fergie era. The physicallity of the PL is totally different now. You’ll get run over and left behind if you’re not ready from the go.

Somewhat true I suppose but even city with all their domination need time to warm up properly, most of their compulsory annual 10 game win streak comes towards the latter half of the season i think.

Pep seemingly even counted on that with the way he utilized gundogan for example.

 

[Cassidy]

Somewhat true I suppose but even city with all their domination need time to warm up properly, most of their compulsory annual 10 game win streak comes towards the latter half of the season i think.

Pep seemingly even counted on that with the way he utilized gundogan for example.

I was not talking about the team warming up. Did you watch Rodri on the weekend and think he looked like he was far behind the pace of PL level football?

 

[Red the Bear]

I was not talking about the team warming up. Did you watch Rodri on the weekend and think he looked like he was far behind the pace of PL level football?

Indeed not but I'm sure casemiro wouldn't have looked out of place as pl midfielder if he didn't have to cover half the pitch.

 

[acnumber9]

I was not talking about the team warming up. Did you watch Rodri on the weekend and think he looked like he was far behind the pace of PL level football?

Was Rodri left to cover midfield on his own?

 

[Borys]

He isn't a problem. Not super fast over 6 yards but that people have unrealistic expectations if they think there's a midfielder who can play this role in the system ETH came up with.

 

[Cassidy]

Was Rodri left to cover midfield on his own?

So thats the reason he couldn’t make a 10 yard pass?

The tactical setup was flawed, that has nothing to do with Casemiro “being a slow starter”

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He’s a fine player but a few concerns:
- He keeps vacating his position and binging forwards or pressing too aggressively. It feels like he’s not as suited to this system as a Carrick or Rodri would be but still - it should be easy enough to not wander even beyond Bruno for no apparent reason.
- He’s getting on in age and needs Bruno and amount to drop deeper and provide support. Being floating 8s doesn’t mean they wait for play to come to them.

 

[acnumber9]

So thats the reason he couldn’t make a 10 yard pass?

The tactical setup was flawed, that has nothing to do with Casemiro “being a slow starter”

Well he tried ambitious passes and they don’t always come off. That’s been his game since he got here. But technique obviously lessons the more tired your body is.

 

[Cassidy]

Well he tried ambitious passes and they don’t always come off. That’s been his game since he got here. But technique obviously lessons the more tired your body is.

Actually he was miss placing basic passes, which he was doing last season too when people said "hes a slow starter"

 

[Matt851]

He’s a fine player but a few concerns:
- He keeps vacating his position and binging forwards or pressing too aggressively. It feels like he’s not as suited to this system as a Carrick or Rodri would be but still - it should be easy enough to not wander even beyond Bruno for no apparent reason.
- He’s getting on in age and needs Bruno and amount to drop deeper and provide support. Being floating 8s doesn’t mean they wait for play to come to them.

I don't see how any midfielder would cope with mount and Bruno pushing so far forward, including rice

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I don't see how any midfielder would cope with mount and Bruno pushing so far forward, including rice

True but every correction helps. The bare minimum should be for the holding DM to hold the position.

 

[acnumber9]

Actually he was miss placing basic passes, which he was doing last season too when people said "hes a slow starter"

That’s the kind of player he is. His pros outweighs the cons for me.

 

[Cassidy]

That’s the kind of player he is. His pros outweighs the cons for me.

Except when we haves games where we can’t stop the counter.
Usually when hes been on form and us too, he was not that sloppy on the ball

 

[acnumber9]

Except when we haves games where we can’t stop the counter.
Usually when hes been on form and us too, he was not that sloppy on the ball

In those games he needs help and to not be the only person doing that job. And that will be made harder by asking him to do three people’s jobs.

 

[MrWilliams]

You can’t play him as the single holding mid when our midfielders struggle to hold the ball in possession and don’t do enough out of it. He’s having to do the job of 2 midfielders himself.

 

[Idxomer]

Actually he was miss placing basic passes, which he was doing last season too when people said "hes a slow starter"

His passing last game wasn't that bad, 81% is better than his average last season. He did make the most progressive passes in the team. His defending on the other hand was that bad with a lot of mistimed challenges and bad positioning.

 

[TsuWave]

 

[BluesJr]

Totally agree with Jamie there. Listen, he was absolutely great at times last year but the warning signs are there. It’s just a typical no plan signing from us and we need upgrade next year as a priority and also add this year. Other PL midfields are much stronger.

 

[Borys]

Shocking how would anyone blame him for Wolves game. He was left on his own in midfield and still was quite good on/off the ball. He is nowhere near our biggest issues. It's a fact he's aging, but this should've been recognized last year by the manager and addressed during the window, as he should still be core of the team this season.

I do agree with Jaime though, because I rate those players - especially Caicedo. The thing is we were in panic mode when we got him and Antony so it doesn't count I guess.

 

[Leftback99]

This was obvious when we signed him.

 

[NotChatGPT]

Carragher

The only thing more annoying than Carragher, is people listening to Carragher.

First of all, the Wolves game was a shitshow on a large number of levels, but Casemiro not dominating the midfield wasn’t because he’s aging but because it was a solo-midfield for the majority of the match. A bit like how VVD’s weaknesses are being highlighted by the lack of midfield protecting Liverpools defense. Casemiro would’ve struggled just as badly 5 years ago in a similar setup.

No, Casemiro isn’t a long term solution for our midfield, but that wasn’t the intention either. Nor was it about appeasing disgruntled fans, but improving our shockingly poor midfield so that we’d actually. stand a chance of qualifying for the Champions League (which we did). He was also one of our best players last season. We spent most of the summer trying to sign Frenkie, who we wanted to build our midfield around, but just like Liverpool have discovered, much to Carraghers annoyance, signing your preferred players isn’t always easy. A long list of teams had been following Rice, including Chelsea and Manchester City, all lost out to Arsenal. Just as the list of teams wanting to sign Caicedo was long. Very few teams can jump in and take a chance on spending £100mill+ on a player that’s had one season at the highest level, even fewer teams can do that with multiple players. Chelsea have signed more than a complete starting lineup + bench since last summer, it’s hardly a path that can be followed by any normally run team, using them as an example for their willingness to spend on Fernandez and Caicedo, is a bit like the Norwegian billionaire explaining how he also struggled with the financial crisis, and that he had to cut costs by sending his shirts to his tailor in London for repairs rather than buying new ones, and that more people should follow his example because then the costs of living would go down, genius. Also, if you are in need of cash, you can consider selling some of the cars from your vintage Ferrari collection, or start flying first class instead of your private yet.

The only team deserving some credit is Arsenal, who have a core of young highly talented players that potentially might peak at the right time. Getting there has been a long process, and for normally run clubs it will always be a long process, the list of normally run teams that can sign over 20 first team players, for a combined fee of over €950mill, in less than a year is pretty much 0. It must be a pretty decent blow to be strategic about the way they build a team over the years, finally about to peak, only to find themselves about to be left behind by a team that’s been living off someone elses pockets for the past 20 odd years or so. Life, and all of that, but applauding the example they are setting is something entirely different.

Did Klopp instantly turn Liverpool into trophy candidates? Did they instantly sign all the players they needed in the space of a year? Nah, because normally operated clubs can’t. Yes, we’ll do our outmost to sign a midfielder that will be a long term solution, but the increased difficulty of doing so is also a result of the mental direction football has taken over the years.

 

[VP89]

Has Charrager not learned from ruling players out after GW1 in a season?

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I thought he was £60 million plus £10 million of clauses, would he have hit them all yet? Also would United have got the Champions League last season without Casemiro? I don't think so, so that was arguably worth the money. Also these teams are mostly buying on potential of being as good as Casemiro. Far too early to write him off.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I mean, it's not a massively hot take, he's 31 and those lot are all under 25 - We're getting max 4 good years out of Cas, they're getting easily over double that - so value wise there isn't much argument.

However it was a needs-must signing. So long term value wans't exactly the plan, and thats ok sometimes.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Just looking at the players, their prices and the number of quality seasons each club is likely to get out of them, it is hard to disagree with that assessment.

However, it also has to be taken into account, that Casemiro was arguably the difference between us finishing in or outside the top four last season. We don't get there without him. Could we have gotten a younger player that would come in with that quality and mentality to make the same difference? I'm not sure.

 

[Cassidy]

Just looking at the players, their prices and the number of quality seasons each club is likely to get out of them, it is hard to disagree with that assessment.

However, it also has to be taken into account, that Casemiro was arguably the difference between us finishing in or outside the top four last season. We don't get there without him. Could we have gotten a younger player that would come in with that quality and mentality to make the same difference? I'm not sure.

You don't think we make top 4 with Caicedo instead of Casemiro last season? I think that's debatable, it would have been a gamble by United to do that though.
You can't really quantify the leadership difference Casemiro would have made mind you

 

[cyberman]

Carragher has been slyly pushing this since he signed. Never mind it’s 3 years left and we can sell him when we want.
Casemiro got us a trophy and top 4 last season with guaranteed elite performances. The rest are speculative that have far more chance of not becoming elite and justifying the price than what a guaranteed, elite star like Casemiro brings

 

[Mike Smalling]

You don't think we make top 4 with Caicedo instead of Casemiro last season? I think that's debatable, it would have been a gamble by United to do that though.
You can't really quantify the leadership difference Casemiro would have made mind you

That's sort of my point. Maybe we could make top four, maybe we couldn't. But there was an added degree of certainty about getting Casemiro that was definitely worth something for where we were a year ago.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

You don't think we make top 4 with Caicedo instead of Casemiro last season? I think that's debatable, it would have been a gamble by United to do that though.
You can't really quantify the leadership difference Casemiro would have made mind you

You can't know, it's entirely hypothetical but I'm going to say no. The margins were finer than the final table showed, United were in dire straits with a mid-table midfield before he arrived and it required a player that was ready for the situation and had the experience to lead from the beginning and elevate the whole team. Caicedo a year younger than he is now, would have been a big, big ask.

Aside from what they're paid to do off the ball, just the fact Caicedo has just scored 2 goals in 2 seasons for Brighton. Casemiro scored the winner against Bournemouth, the only goal of the game, in a crucial match in the run-in. He scored the opening goal against Chelsea in the next game. He scored in the League Cup final and played brilliantly. He stood up when it mattered last season.

 

[Rockets Redglare]

This was obvious when we signed him.

Value in the market for the future yes but United needed Casemiro, not someone they could profit on later.

Fernandez looks good but had a horrendous season, Rice has looked pretty average so far in an Arsenal shirt and Caicedo hasn’t even played yet! Let’s just see how the season goes.

 

[sebsheep]

I mean, it's not a massively hot take, he's 31 and those lot are all under 25 - We're getting max 4 good years out of Cas, they're getting easily over double that - so value wise there isn't much argument.

However it was a needs-must signing. So long term value wans't exactly the plan, and thats ok sometimes.

They also have to reach their potential and maintain them over a decent period of time to justify those prices.
It was pretty clear when we signed him that certain sections of the media wanted to trash him, it's not really a surprise that they've started again after 1 game this season.

 

[JuriM]

Eventually it's down to manager to get the best out of it's players and know when their abilities change and change tactics accordingly. If he get's slower, then the tactical setup has to cover that.



But this Wolves game didn't show anything, it was one off mess and we need much more games to understand and see.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Just seen that Jamie Carragher’s been saying Casemiro will end up costing us more than Rice and Caicedo because we’ll have to go out and spend another £100m on a replacement pretty soon. What do we think, chatting bollocks or does he have a point?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Just seen that Jamie Carragher’s been saying Casemiro will end up costing us more than Rice and Caicedo because we’ll have to go out and spend another £100m on a replacement pretty soon. What do we think, chatting bollocks or does he have a point?

I mean in an ideal world we find a bargain for under £30m and he becomes a world class DM... or one of our youngsters steps up. Who knows really.

However, as this is United, yeah we'll probably end up spunking £100m on someone in 2/3 years time

 

[We need an rvn]

Just seen that Jamie Carragher’s been saying Casemiro will end up costing us more than Rice and Caicedo because we’ll have to go out and spend another £100m on a replacement pretty soon. What do we think, chatting bollocks or does he have a point?

Spot on in my opinion in the sense he'll need replacing soon, except he didn't cost us £105-£115m did he. So in that sense it might end up costing the same as Caideo / Rice if we can buy a replacement for another £60m - or possibly spend nothing if Mainoo could be a potential replacement for him.

I said when we signed him that he'll have one, possibly two good seasons with us, after which his legs will go and probably won't be able to hack it. I think his muscular build will stop him being able to play in central mid top level in his mid 30s.

He did an amazing job in his first season and should be fine this season too - I think that first match isn't a fair reflection on what we'll see for most of the season from him, and part of that comes with playing in a formation that gives him a suitable partner in central mid as it's obvious Case / Mount and Fernandez doesn't quite work as it leaves Case with too much to do.

 

[dubplate warrior]

You can’t play him as the single holding mid when our midfielders struggle to hold the ball in possession and don’t do enough out of it. He’s having to do the job of 2 midfielders himself.

Casemiro is our best player but will receive criticism for not being able to do an impossible task. We should have never signed Mount.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Fernandinho played 34 games for Man City in defensive midfield with two attacking midfielders when he was aged 33 as they got 100 points in the league. At 31, Casemiro's well capable of keeping it going for another few years.

 

[Dannn411]

He's very annoying but it's hard to disagree.The way Casemiro looked on Monday plus the way he looked towards the end of last year, it'd be a miracle if we get 3 good years out of him.

 

[dubplate warrior]

Just seen that Jamie Carragher’s been saying Casemiro will end up costing us more than Rice and Caicedo because we’ll have to go out and spend another £100m on a replacement pretty soon. What do we think, chatting bollocks or does he have a point?

If we get another great season out of him then in the current market of course it is.