I know. It's still a weird statement.
Bundesliga 2016/17
- Thread starter Piratesoup
- Start date
I know. It's still a weird statement.
I wasn't sure either that's why i haven't mentioned it
Germany has its fair share of sugardaddyism: Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim, Leipzig, to a certain ammount Leverkusen, Ingolstadt, 1860 Munich.
Almost all of them serve to emphasize the neagtives about that model: What happens when the money is suddenly pulled out, and what happens when the patron interferes too much.
Leverkusen: is half-free of the stigma becuase the sum Bayer puts into it is mediocre and becomes less significant from year to year. They've been around a while now to be accepted as a club like any other. I think their biggest handicap is that Leverkusen is even less of a city than Wolfsburg, it is basically a huge factory with a few living quarters nearby. Cologne is not 20km away, and it is located at the southern tip of the greater Ruhr area with its abundance of clubs with long histories. They are about in the hardest spot (geographically) to ever be accepted fully, despite the fact they made a name for playing attractive football.
Wolfsburg: Was the closest thing to the sugardaddy clubs of the PL or other leagues in terms of "club out of nowhere pushed to winnig titles by big money". Also serves as an example of what will happen if the money source pulls the plug. VW reduced their investment in wake of dieselgate. Currently they are where City was 5 years ago: Players go there for the money and to snatch a contract at a better club as fast as possible.
Hoffenheim: A sugardaddy club trying not to be one. Hopp wanted to join the stablishment with a village club using his SAP money. but to do it by developing new stars instead of buying them. Succeeded for a certain time (with the help of a few easoned veterans), failed when Ragnick and later Peters quit and when Hopp started to interfere with football decisions. Hopps plan was to pull out slowly and make it a selfsufficient club, maybe he pulled out too early.
They were breeze of fresh air, now nobody would notice if they just went away.
Leipzig: a bit of an early Hoffenheim but with a better chance to succeed, as Red Bull is not known for lack of perseverance, and Mateschitz is not likely to interfere with the running of the club much himself, he will hire an expert to do that for him.
Ingolstadt: a smaller Wolfsburg.
1860: how not to do the Sugar Daddy-Thing. They were absolutely bancrupt at that time so they couldn't be ovelry picky, but many would say now it would have been better to restart from league 4 than to partner up with Ismaik. The "partnership" has been an long row of public infights, Investors demands tat were agianst league rules, ludicrous ideas (SG Ericsson for 2nd league), an endless stream of investors puppets in all sorts of positions etc etc, and failures on the field. At times, even dyed-in-the-wool supporters wouldn't know the name of the president for that particular week, and many stopped caring. They weren't even showered in money for it, rather the opposite. All Ismaiks money are loans. Over the years, the young talents they had raised and were forced to sell for occasinally comically little money would combine to a team competing for 5th spot in the BuLi at least.
Almost all of them serve to emphasize the neagtives about that model: What happens when the money is suddenly pulled out, and what happens when the patron interferes too much.
Leverkusen: is half-free of the stigma becuase the sum Bayer puts into it is mediocre and becomes less significant from year to year. They've been around a while now to be accepted as a club like any other. I think their biggest handicap is that Leverkusen is even less of a city than Wolfsburg, it is basically a huge factory with a few living quarters nearby. Cologne is not 20km away, and it is located at the southern tip of the greater Ruhr area with its abundance of clubs with long histories. They are about in the hardest spot (geographically) to ever be accepted fully, despite the fact they made a name for playing attractive football.
Wolfsburg: Was the closest thing to the sugardaddy clubs of the PL or other leagues in terms of "club out of nowhere pushed to winnig titles by big money". Also serves as an example of what will happen if the money source pulls the plug. VW reduced their investment in wake of dieselgate. Currently they are where City was 5 years ago: Players go there for the money and to snatch a contract at a better club as fast as possible.
Hoffenheim: A sugardaddy club trying not to be one. Hopp wanted to join the stablishment with a village club using his SAP money. but to do it by developing new stars instead of buying them. Succeeded for a certain time (with the help of a few easoned veterans), failed when Ragnick and later Peters quit and when Hopp started to interfere with football decisions. Hopps plan was to pull out slowly and make it a selfsufficient club, maybe he pulled out too early.
They were breeze of fresh air, now nobody would notice if they just went away.
Leipzig: a bit of an early Hoffenheim but with a better chance to succeed, as Red Bull is not known for lack of perseverance, and Mateschitz is not likely to interfere with the running of the club much himself, he will hire an expert to do that for him.
Ingolstadt: a smaller Wolfsburg.
1860: how not to do the Sugar Daddy-Thing. They were absolutely bancrupt at that time so they couldn't be ovelry picky, but many would say now it would have been better to restart from league 4 than to partner up with Ismaik. The "partnership" has been an long row of public infights, Investors demands tat were agianst league rules, ludicrous ideas (SG Ericsson for 2nd league), an endless stream of investors puppets in all sorts of positions etc etc, and failures on the field. At times, even dyed-in-the-wool supporters wouldn't know the name of the president for that particular week, and many stopped caring. They weren't even showered in money for it, rather the opposite. All Ismaiks money are loans. Over the years, the young talents they had raised and were forced to sell for occasinally comically little money would combine to a team competing for 5th spot in the BuLi at least.
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Based on sponsoring, clubs in cities such as Frankfurt or Berlin have to be interesting? How come there isn't any growth potential there? Is it simply a lack of a fanbase and tradition or am I overestimating the economic influence in said cities? I understand for clubs such as Dortmund and Schalke, there is the "Ruhrgebiet", but I'm sure Frankfurt with its financial center and its massive airport could be a good market as well.
Wolfsburg seemed to have massive potential with VW backing them prior to their scandal and it's not as if Wolfsburg is otherwise some sort of major city in Germany.
Frankfurt suffers from being an awfully managed club ever since. They never developed any kind of legacy, despite being one of the BuLi founding members. You'll have a hard time finding an Eintracht supporter who's not from the region, same goes for Hertha
Frankfurt, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Berlin at least have everyting needed to be home to a top club. Add Dortmund and Schalke to that. Nürnberg and Hannover if everyting goes their way. Even Kaiserslautern with their perpetual Nibelungentreue from DfB could be where Gladbach is right now. It ain't really Bayerns fault to be up there ,its other peoples fault that they are *not* up there with them.
Rauball is yellow-black bellend who loves bitching about us. The opening game was superb. I enjoyed it a lot
Seriously, can you town down the insults a notch? It is posts like these which are just the perfect invitation for mudslinging contests between the supporter groups, which turned the atmospheres of every larger German forum toxic between Bayern and the BVB. For quite a lot of German posters this forum is kind of a sanctuary because you can actually properly discuss football between rival camps.
Rauball is by the way a rather quiet president (he still is, no clue where people get the idea that he isn´t anymore). Our loudspeaker is very clearly the CEO.
That being said, I see no reason to change the tradition of having the champions playing the first match. The opponent should be a stronger one, though. Dortmund as second force of the league should not be in it either, though, as this match should be when both teams are at their maximum strength.
Who said that?
Well i keep on hearing Bayern are head and shoulders above the rest of the league because the DFB is heavily biased towards them and they are always weakening opponents by snatching their players. As this forum is muppetfree, i'm sure it wasn't here
Dortmund has a cracking offense on paper now though. Once they get going, they should be smashing teams IMO. Aubameyang, Schurrle, Gotze, Reus, Emre Mor, Dembele, Pulisic, Ramos is crazy depth.
Can´t say too much about Frankfurt, but Berlin has the problem of having been divided for a couple of decades. Hertha never had the chance of building up remarkable tradition or fanbase (it was never superbly run either). In Berlin-Brandenburg, if you are a full fledged football fan, you usually either support the smaller local teams Union Berlin or Energie Cottbus or follow a big club from the West. Berlin-Brandenburg is infact the biggest BVB stronghold outside the Ruhr area, where the number of Dortmund follower slightly edges out Bayern´s (which is counteracted by Saxonia being more red than yellow).
Well i keep on hearing Bayern are head and shoulders above the rest of the league because the DFB is heavily biased towards them and they are always weakening opponents by snatching their players. As this forum is muppetfree, i'm sure it wasn't here
So, you are basically fighting shadows which don´t exist here?
I disagree. Ingolstadt actually works with a very small budget. They are still a very unlikeable team as they take a thing which was mostly popularized by us in the league (high intensity pressing) and use it in the most negative way possible. Their sole purpose is to destroy the opponents game flow and luck their way to a goal, which makes for horrible games to watch.
It asn't a dig against your club, rather than at Rauball himself. Not the first time he has problems in hiding his bias. He wouldn't have been oh so upset, if it were his former club who butchered Werder in the opening game. Suggesting to let Dortmund have the next season opener, implying whether they are the league champions or not, is just the icing on the cake
It asn't a dig against your club, rather than at Rauball himself. Not the first time he has problems in hiding his bias. He wouldn't have been oh so upset, if it were his former club who butchered Werder in the opening game. Suggesting to let Dortmund have the next season opener, implying whether they are the league champions or not, is just the icing on the cake
Oh please, as if Rummenigge does not have the interests of Bayern Munich in mind when he leads the ECA...
Of course there is bias involved. If we want to have that eliminated, we have to disallow double functions. Problem is, that there are actually not that many competetent people in the world of club football.
As for having a dig v. Rauball compared to the club, I would love to see the reactions of Bayern supporter when the names Hoeneß or said Rummenigge appear. They surely will be able to see the difference aswell, right
? To come back to actual football: class atmosphere in the Berlin match at the moment. Surprising.
Never heard him harping on other BuLi clubs on that occasion(and fueling the narrative of clubs not putting up a fight against a certain club exclusively)
As for having a dig v. Rauball compared to the club, I would love to see the reactions of Bayern supporter when the names Hoeneß or said Rummenigge appear. They surely will be able to see the difference aswell, right
Neither Hoeneß nor Rummenigge are DFL officials. Not sure where you are coming from
Leipzig is playing some nice football right now.
Yes ! Lucky win against Freiburg. First 3 points of the season, 2 more than i thought we would get. Unfortunately our midfield is just so bad and devoid of ideas.
! Lucky win against Freiburg. First 3 points of the season, 2 more than i thought we would get. Unfortunately our midfield is just so bad and devoid of ideas.I always enjoyed reading up on matches in here if I wasn't able to watch them myself. Shame that it seems we've been bogged down in fruitless trenchwars for the entire weekend.
Didn't realise RB Leipzig had both Ilsanker and Sabitzer(who had been on loan at Salzburg). I was fans of both when they were with Salzburg so hopefully they do well like Mané and Kampl have done.
I thought they might with Hasenhuttl in charge. Looking forward to how RB Leipzig get on under him this season.
Of course, but Bayern has been very successful in Europe as well and many here still acknowledge the qualities of Bayern (at least until Rummenigge starts talking about other club's business'
People are more so intent on diminishing the Bundesliga itself and here it is hard to really draw a conclusion. I think Bayern has reached a level of domestic dominance under Pep that they hadn't been on before. They were always the favorites to win the title, but in the past few years there was never once a doubt about them hoisting the trophy at the end of the season. This will obviously make the other Bundesliga clubs look worse than they are.
I think if you compare it to the PL, Bayern is the strongest club out of all of them at the moment, with Dortmund being a notch under City and the current United, perhaps Chelsea too, but then you could easily slot them in on a level with Arsenal and Tottenham. Then you have the likes of Leverkusen and Moenchengladbach, who are respectable clubs as well and could be top-6 in England. At the same time, I think a club such as Liverpool would have an easier time to reach the CL spots in Germany because there isn't as much strong competition for these places.
That's when perhaps the differences in quality show the most, amongst the non-European spots. Even before the TV money, I always felt the mid-table to lower-table teams in the PL were harder to play than those in the BL.
One could argue that Bayern would beat them all regardless and it's hard to compare because these teams don't compete on an international level, but yeah, these games seem to be more of a challenge for PL squads.
Overall though, one thing that I've always wondered about is why no other BL team (outside of Dortmund now) really becomes a consistent, growing force. There always seem to be teams on the rise but they can't take that final step and actually take a step backwards at some point.
I think these league discussions are pointless, because the nature of the leages are differently. We'll never be able to pick teams of one league and guesstimate where they'd rate in another league. Bayern may very well win the EPL in such a scenario. Or they'd break down because you have more games per season. In this, football teams feel like Formula One cars. They're highly tuned engines built for a very specific purpose and pace. But then, I get why it's fun to talk about these theoretical scenarios.
The bit you (or was it someone else) was remarking upon was Bayern fans reacting badly to these discussions, however. And while I acknowledge what you're saying, I'm not sure if they understand that you're not having a shot at Bayern, but instead the German league. It kinda could come across (and sometimes I've seen people state it outright) as if Bayern had it easier and so their performance in Europe is a given, since they don't have to work as hard domestically.
It's a valid point, tbh. Bremen this weekend? Felt like a friendly from start to finish. They've had preseason games vs. lower league games with less goals scored in previous years.
You're right, the non-European spots are the meat we'd like to know about. And they're ultimately also the decider between "Which league is stronger". Luckily, we'll never be able to answer that and this discussion can go on indefinitely. :cheer:
The reason why other teams can't become a growing force is manifold. Part of it is them sticking to old players as managers out of tradition. It works for Bayern, but some of the ex-player-directors in the Bundesliga are downright shit and have no sense of business at all. Couple this with blunders like buyout clauses. Remember the Reus incident that was later repeated with Götze's move from Dortmund to Bayern? It's like... if you don't want to sell the player, how about you actually set a buyout fee that'll help you replace him. What's the worst that could happen? You have a good potential player that you set a 50m fee for turn out to be shite. That's it. Those buyout fees should reflect the actual point at which you'd rub your hands and say "Wow, some douche actually paid the price... let's get ourselves a real monster for this gift", not a "oh, this is probably his market value, let's put the fee that is supposed to prevent a buyout we don't like about 5m above that."
And I think by now you can almost feel how many clubs just don't include 12 points in their season planning. Watch them play against Dortmund and Bayern, it's teams like Bremen that basically start waving the white flag after the ref whistles the game on. There wasn't even an attempt to fight the inevitable. This is not because they can't do it. Everyone can fight Bayern, they're only 11 people, too. But Bundesliga coaches are too snobby to fall back on the old German traiditon of breaking some legs on the pitch. That's something Bayern still cannot cope with very well. If you go for the bone, they'll start whinging like little girls and their game is disrupted. But in modern football, this is not wanted. So they try to "play ball" with the big ones and that's where Bayern can shine and simply outplays them. Watch how Atletico kicked Bayern out of the CL last year. They weren't afraid, they went in for the painful tackles and showed them who's master of their house in Madrid.
@do.ob
Well, I live in Hamburg, so I'd enjoy them having less relegation worries this year. It gets really tiring when they start having polls on the radio whether or not the club will be relegated. But I remain sceptical for the time being. Hamburg has the tendency to make good beginnings to better times and then ruining them again with the dumbest decisions possible. As I said, they've half assed it the past 10 years. Lots of good ideas that were later ruined by not following through properly and taking time to remodel the club into what it could be, considering the huge fanbase and financial potential of the city they could tap into.
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I've just seen it right now that Michael Hector (On loan from Chelsea) got a sent-off against Schalke.....that makes two sent-offs in two games for him because he got one against Magdeburg in the DFB-Pokal last weekend too
Is he really on the 15th club of his careerI've just seen it right now that Michael Hector (On loan from Chelsea) got a sent-off against Schalke.....that makes two sent-offs in two games for him because he got one against Magdeburg in the DFB-Pokal last weekend too
14th clubIs he really on the 15th club of his career
but he was at 12 clubs only on loan.Taking Atletico as a leading example for bottom table clubs like Werder doesn't get you anywhere. It's also disingenous trying to talk a gulf a in class away by saying "They are only 11 people, too."
Some people are just way better than others, simple as that. Bayern won 7-1 in Rome vs AS under Pep, last season we smashed Arsenal at home.
If a WC team takes a game seriously it requires another WC team(or heaps of luck) to beat it.
Bla bla bla, "Bayern is simply the best bla bla". Hes got a point: Those teams full of fear are disgusting. Shit in their pants even before the game has started. Scholl said ist once: Back then, it was harder for a Bayern player to play against the likes of Unterhaching or whatever than playing in europe, cause every team wanted to beat Bayern, and fight for their lifes. It were tough games and difficult against every team in the Bundesliga. What is it now? Getting yellow cards the game before to rest against Bayern, Coaches who claim "it was a honor to play here" after ridicoulus defeats and so on. The bad refeerering is another point.
Don't get this chatter of Bayern being the 3rd best team of Europe/the world. Two or three years ago a lot of Bayern fans thought they are the best team in the world, best in Europe bla bla. Took them two thrashings against Barcelona and Real Madrid, and an elimination against the "minnow" Atletico to understand that they are not. Now they still think they are clearly the 3rd best team in Europe...i wonder why? Last year they were eliminated by a team with a very low budget compared to theirs...after going through very very lucky against Juventus, also a team on way lower budget then Bayern. Bayern hasn't played against the strongest team(s) of the PL in many years. Arsenal, or last year's City who only got into the top4 because our useless LvG were hardly the PL reference.
All this talk about Bayern walking the PL is just utter nonsense. Bayern fans believing their team could easily win the PL, in a similar fashion then the Bundesliga, has the same level of trolling in it, like the people calling the Bundesliga "shit" because a bad Werder Bremen is being thrashed by Bayern.
I definitely don't wanna talk Bayern down. They are definitely one of the best in Europe. So are other teams. Seeing Bayern against this years Chelsea, Pep's City, or us, now this would be interesting. I don't think Bayern is worse, but i also don't think they are better. Those 4 teams are all pretty close. Can't wait for next years CL, when Bayern gets proper hard matches against PL teams. Don't even say they will go out against one of them, but after a balanced game (well, two), even most of the Bayern fans will get that they are not the almighty king of the "rest", they'd like to be.
All this talk about Bayern walking the PL is just utter nonsense. Bayern fans believing their team could easily win the PL, in a similar fashion then the Bundesliga, has the same level of trolling in it, like the people calling the Bundesliga "shit" because a bad Werder Bremen is being thrashed by Bayern.
I definitely don't wanna talk Bayern down. They are definitely one of the best in Europe. So are other teams. Seeing Bayern against this years Chelsea, Pep's City, or us, now this would be interesting. I don't think Bayern is worse, but i also don't think they are better. Those 4 teams are all pretty close. Can't wait for next years CL, when Bayern gets proper hard matches against PL teams. Don't even say they will go out against one of them, but after a balanced game (well, two), even most of the Bayern fans will get that they are not the almighty king of the "rest", they'd like to be.
Because they reached at least the semi final in the CL five seasons in a row?
The CL will in the end always be the measure stick for the absolute elite and there Bayern has simply proven themselves with results.
For me putting City, Chelsea or United on the same level is far more questionable, because in difference to Munich they either have never made a big enough impact Internationally (City) or put themself in positions, where they have to show once again that they deserve to be rated that high again. Especially United has after their free fall in the last three seasons a lot to prove to match their performances with their size and name again.
Is he really on the 15th club of his career
Gotta love the English system
What you're saying is - again - divorced from reality, it's getting ridiculous. Bayenr actually played PL teams several times, why does that not count? There were no stronger teams at the time..
People see Bayern among the top 3 in Europe because they are making it to the semis every year and actually hold the second place in the UEFA rankings.
Talking about how they are overrated and then elevating three teams that have to reinvent themselves this season, because of their recent lack in performance (after three match days) is the cherry on top.
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Thanks! was thinking of the same but didnt want to write these points.
Not doubting that. I don't put them onto the same short term history level, but onto a roughly equal "current strengths" level. Of course they have a lot more to prove then Bayern. Bayern had very good 5 years. But Bayern was on a constant down the last years, dominating less and less against other teams. Last year for example i wouldn't say they were a better team then Atletico or Juventus. Or even City. I just think this by some "cast in stone" statement, that they are the 3rd best team is very questionable. For me there is no 3rd best team. Real and Barca are all above the rest, then there is a bunch of teams - Bayern, Juventus, Atletico, Paris, City (United?) on pretty similar level. Let's see how they will do this year, and we will be a bit wiser.
Oh - Diego Simeone told after the match against Bayern last season that this was the strongest opponent his team has ever played against.
To win things or matches always has an element of luck, too. And especially in the knockout matches there is more than just good football but the actual situation that is more important. That Bayern played 2:2 in Juve after leading 2:0 had a lot to do with the how Bayern tries to periodize the form of their players. In the first CL match after the winter break Bayern usually has a form deficit - you can see that if you look into the last seasons, too. In the second leg the run of the game was very important - Bayern overslept the beginning and caught two early goals. Taking UEFA arithmetic for away goals after that it was crucial not to get caught into counters as another goal of Juve would have meant that they had to score 4. So Bayern played until the 70th minutes without much risk... I thought that shooting 6 goals in two matches against a team that were 1000 minutes without goals against in there league was pretty good...
But let's just take the UEFA club ranking of the last five seasons as measurement...
1 Real Madrid Esp 36.1714 29.5428 39.6000 33.0428 37.7856 176.142
2 Bayern München Ger 33.0500 36.5856 29.9428 31.1714 32.2856 163.035
3 FC Barcelona Esp 34.1714 27.5428 28.6000 38.0428 30.7856 159.142
4 Atlético Madrid Esp 34.1714 13.5428 37.6000 26.0428 32.7856 144.142
5 Chelsea Eng 33.0500 30.2856 28.3570 23.7142 20.8500 136.256
6 Benfica Por 23.3666 28.3500 30.9832 9.8166 24.1000 116.616
7 Paris Saint-Germain Fra 9.1000 27.3500 26.7000 23.1832 26.2166 112.549
8 Borussia Dortmund Ger 10.0500 33.5856 24.9428 21.1714 20.2856 110.035
9 Juventus Ita 2.2714 25.8832 25.8332 32.8000 20.3000 107.087
10 Arsenal Eng 22.0500 21.2856 21.3570 22.7142 17.8500 105.256
11 Manchester City Eng 20.0500 10.2856 22.3570 17.7142 28.8500 99.256
12 Valencia Esp 25.1714 22.5428 26.6000 4.0428 18.7856 97.142
13 Schalke 04 Ger 20.0500 22.5856 18.9428 20.1714 14.2856 96.035
14 Sevilla Esp 5.6714 3.5428 26.6000 32.0428 27.7856 95.642
15 Zenit St. Petersburg Rus 19.9500 14.9500 18.0832 18.9332 21.3000 93.216
16 FC Porto Por 12.3666 22.3500 17.9832 26.8166 13.1000 92.616
17 Napoli Ita 21.2714 8.8832 18.8332 25.8000 15.3000 90.087
18 Bayer Leverkusen Ger 19.0500 12.5856 18.9428 21.1714 17.2856 89.035
19 FC Basel Sui 20.2000 17.6750 20.4400 16.3800 13.0600 87.755
20 Manchester United Eng 16.0500 21.2856 26.3570 2.7142 15.8500 82.256
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And right now I have the feeling that the change of coaches at Bayern did not really weaken Bayern...
To win things or matches always has an element of luck, too. And especially in the knockout matches there is more than just good football but the actual situation that is more important. That Bayern played 2:2 in Juve after leading 2:0 had a lot to do with the how Bayern tries to periodize the form of their players. In the first CL match after the winter break Bayern usually has a form deficit - you can see that if you look into the last seasons, too. In the second leg the run of the game was very important - Bayern overslept the beginning and caught two early goals. Taking UEFA arithmetic for away goals after that it was crucial not to get caught into counters as another goal of Juve would have meant that they had to score 4. So Bayern played until the 70th minutes without much risk... I thought that shooting 6 goals in two matches against a team that were 1000 minutes without goals against in there league was pretty good...
But let's just take the UEFA club ranking of the last five seasons as measurement...
1 Real Madrid Esp 36.1714 29.5428 39.6000 33.0428 37.7856 176.142
2 Bayern München Ger 33.0500 36.5856 29.9428 31.1714 32.2856 163.035
3 FC Barcelona Esp 34.1714 27.5428 28.6000 38.0428 30.7856 159.142
4 Atlético Madrid Esp 34.1714 13.5428 37.6000 26.0428 32.7856 144.142
5 Chelsea Eng 33.0500 30.2856 28.3570 23.7142 20.8500 136.256
6 Benfica Por 23.3666 28.3500 30.9832 9.8166 24.1000 116.616
7 Paris Saint-Germain Fra 9.1000 27.3500 26.7000 23.1832 26.2166 112.549
8 Borussia Dortmund Ger 10.0500 33.5856 24.9428 21.1714 20.2856 110.035
9 Juventus Ita 2.2714 25.8832 25.8332 32.8000 20.3000 107.087
10 Arsenal Eng 22.0500 21.2856 21.3570 22.7142 17.8500 105.256
11 Manchester City Eng 20.0500 10.2856 22.3570 17.7142 28.8500 99.256
12 Valencia Esp 25.1714 22.5428 26.6000 4.0428 18.7856 97.142
13 Schalke 04 Ger 20.0500 22.5856 18.9428 20.1714 14.2856 96.035
14 Sevilla Esp 5.6714 3.5428 26.6000 32.0428 27.7856 95.642
15 Zenit St. Petersburg Rus 19.9500 14.9500 18.0832 18.9332 21.3000 93.216
16 FC Porto Por 12.3666 22.3500 17.9832 26.8166 13.1000 92.616
17 Napoli Ita 21.2714 8.8832 18.8332 25.8000 15.3000 90.087
18 Bayer Leverkusen Ger 19.0500 12.5856 18.9428 21.1714 17.2856 89.035
19 FC Basel Sui 20.2000 17.6750 20.4400 16.3800 13.0600 87.755
20 Manchester United Eng 16.0500 21.2856 26.3570 2.7142 15.8500 82.256
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And right now I have the feeling that the change of coaches at Bayern did not really weaken Bayern...
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And while we are at it, let's just take the current FIFA ranking as measurement for the national teams
Thats simply not true. By looking on the UEFA table, and also the eyes of every normal footballfan can see, that United is nowhere near those teams. United wishes thats its like that, but for now and since years, United are not in this row. They might be able to come back, but at this moment they are not. Simple that is. I also would say that PSG are not in the second tier of european top teams. They never achieved something in europe. They are in a row with Shity: Throwing money out of the window and getting notrhing for it. Shity was last year the first time (!) in a Semifinal. The first time.
We have no history lesson, we are talking about current strengths. Last year City had (obviously) the same strengths like Bayern, when we go after international success (which, according to the lot in here is the only determination how good a team is). This year it's already obvious that City is a lot stronger then last year. Bayern, let's see. They are on pretty similar level. Let's see how this season will go, i expect a very close race between us and City, so it's only logical, that we are pretty similar to City (=Bayern) strengthswise. If we fair bad this season, and finish 15 points behind City, you are right...let's see.
I think Bayern will improve under Ancelotti. Pep held them back.
We are not talking about one year - and not about one competition either. And not just about the position at the end. Else we could say - United won the FA Cup - Bayern won the German Cup - they were at the same level last year, too...
And the current level... I think everything is still too early to predict.
this has become the second worst thread on the caf. Only the Spurs thread is worse.
Fully agree, and that's exactly the point i am trying to make. Just calling Bayern 3rd best team in Europe like it would be obvious is utter nonsense. They might be, they might also be 8th best team in Europe.
That "minnow" had it easier with Barca than with us last season, and gave Real a run for their money in the final. That *minnow* also was chasing Barca to the very last matchday of the Primera Division.
So maybe you could put substance to your arbitrary ranking of Barca/Real way above anyone else, and especially that comet-like ascension of the 3 PL clubs you've mentioned?
You aren't a frustrated 60er, btw?
It'd certainly explain the nuttery that comes with pretty much each of your statements