This season? He’s been terrible.
Bruno is underrated thread
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
This is a great post
Bruno is undoubtedly very talented, but he underwhelms and there is definitely an argument to be made that the reason he underwhelms is because he is surrounded by average players in a horribly coached team
It is very plausible that Bruno would be next level in a better team that is better coached, where forwards know how to score, everybody understands their role and an empty space like McT is not started for no other reason then a Hail Mary hope that maybe he scores a goal
So your last post in the legend-discussion made me want to look at some data, but I didn't want to derail the discussion @Pogue Mahone
Ødegaard is a player that often Bruno gets put up against. Critics of Bruno claim that Ødegaard is a far superior player and want Bruno to be more like him. So I looked into the PL data from this season. Conclusion:
Defensive stats:
Bruno is the clear winner. Yes, he makes more fouls and is more likely to get dribbled past, but he also makes far more successful tackles and interceptions.
Passing stats:
Bruno is the winner here as well. He is more involved in the game, he plays more key passes, more long balls and more crosses. Ødegaard has a higher pass completion rate as usual and he also plays slightly more through balls (0.4 vs 0.3).
Offensive stats:
Pretty much dead even! It's almost spooky how similar their stats are. However (and for me this is the most interesting things about these stats): Ødegaard gets dispossessed TWICE as often as Bruno! How on earth could this be the case? Posters in here keep telling me that Bruno is terrible at holding on to the ball in comparison to his peers? That he is a constant possession-squanderer. Well, so much for that.
Now in the interest of balance: WhoScored has given Ødegaard a slightly higher overall score. We're still talking about small margins though: 7.13 vs 7.09. Ødegaard has scored one more goal and I think goals are heavily weighted (for good reason).
Honestly, this surprised me even as someone thinks that Bruno is a good footballer. I thought for sure that Ødegaard would outshine Bruno considering their respective teams. Imagine what Bruno could do if we started playing good football...
Ødegaard is a player that often Bruno gets put up against. Critics of Bruno claim that Ødegaard is a far superior player and want Bruno to be more like him. So I looked into the PL data from this season. Conclusion:
Defensive stats:
Bruno is the clear winner. Yes, he makes more fouls and is more likely to get dribbled past, but he also makes far more successful tackles and interceptions.
Passing stats:
Bruno is the winner here as well. He is more involved in the game, he plays more key passes, more long balls and more crosses. Ødegaard has a higher pass completion rate as usual and he also plays slightly more through balls (0.4 vs 0.3).
Offensive stats:
Pretty much dead even! It's almost spooky how similar their stats are. However (and for me this is the most interesting things about these stats): Ødegaard gets dispossessed TWICE as often as Bruno! How on earth could this be the case? Posters in here keep telling me that Bruno is terrible at holding on to the ball in comparison to his peers? That he is a constant possession-squanderer. Well, so much for that.
Now in the interest of balance: WhoScored has given Ødegaard a slightly higher overall score. We're still talking about small margins though: 7.13 vs 7.09. Ødegaard has scored one more goal and I think goals are heavily weighted (for good reason).
Honestly, this surprised me even as someone thinks that Bruno is a good footballer. I thought for sure that Ødegaard would outshine Bruno considering their respective teams. Imagine what Bruno could do if we started playing good football...
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Why is it better when he plays more long balls and crosses? That shows a difference in style, not in quality.
Almost nobody here claims that Bruno is dispossessed too often. The criticism is that he plays to many risky passes (which you can see proven in the passing stats you looked up).
Plenty have said that Bruno gets dispossessed too often.
Whether you're a glass half-full or glass half-empty kind of guy: Ødegaard plays roughly 4 more successful passes per game / Bruno misplaces roughly 4 more passes per game. Is that really enough to make Bruno "too risky"? Keep in mind that these passes also lead to more chances, so they're not exactly wasted.
I did the same analysis earlier in the thread. I also made the point that having players around them who are having a good season will give a hiuge boost to these stats. Imagine Bruno playing ahead of the solidity that Odegaard enjoys with Rice and Saliba et al giving him a platform to create?
That post was completely ignored. Tumbleweeds... Nobody wants to hear data that challenges their biases. Too much congnitive dissonance.
I find it strange how you’re calling one or the other a winner in any of these categories as if it’s not highly influenced by style of play and the teams they are in. Other than the defensive stats there’s really not much to take from it
Anyone who watches actual games will not be surprised Ødegaard is dispossessed more than Bruno. Arsenal play some eye of the needle football in the tightest of spaces and Odegaard is more likely to attempt to dribble his way out of some of these cul de sacs. Bruno has a bit more space to play in but more importantly knows he can’t dribble so is more likely to lose the ball with an errant pass than by dribbling.
Calling Bruno the winner in passing because he has more passes is also a weird way of interpreting the numbers. Again Arsenal’s midfield play in strict zones and Odegaard will tend to get the ball in set positions. Compare that with Bruno who has a lot more freedom to move around and receive the ball in more positions on the pitch. He also has the license to try more varied types of passes. You watch Arsenal especially recently and pretty much all their passes are short passes. Rarely do they cross or try long switches of play etc, this is clearly tactical instructions from Arteta.
... and yet he's only marginally more successful than Bruno at dribbling (I believe it was 0.9 vs 0.7 successful dribbles). I don't doubt for a second that Ødegaard is a better dribbler than Bruno because the latter is clearly not a good dribbler. But it's not like Ødegaard's dribbling is a constant threat the opponent when he makes less than 1 successful dribble per game and gets dispossessed a lot despite taking far fewer risks.
Honestly, the only significant edge Ødegaard has over Bruno (at least since Ten Hag took over) is that he's a better goalscorer. Although a big part of this could also be because Arsenal play better football. It's much easier for a player to score for Arsenal than it is for the current United team, that's for sure!
Actually, I included that stat to show that Bruno also is involved in the game. He also retains possession and keeps the ball moving. He's not just a high-risk player. There is clearly much more to him than that.
Scrap watching football games. Just wait until after the games have finished when the stats have been updated on Fbref.
Ronaldo wasn't superb that season. He had a few superb games but was also poor in several games. Bruno hasn't had an abysmal season since he joined. The fact that you would describe his season so far as abysmal makes me wonder whether you've actually watched much of United this season or if you're just watching the 7-0 vs Liverpool on repeat (considering how keen you are to continue referencing that game in many of your posts).
Good retort.
I actually watch the games. That is the whole reason for why I get so baffled by RedCafe to begin with. Bruno passes the eye-test. I wouldn't even consider looking up stats to back this up, because it should be apparent. The stats telling the same story as what I see on the pitch is not a coincidence. It rarely is.
Aaaaaaaand there we go. Person forms subjective opnion. Objective stats condradict subjective opinion. It;'s the stats that are the problem, not the opinion.
A classic of the genre.
One thing I feel Bruno could improve is his influence on a game's rhythm - I think he has it in him to step and take more games by the scruff of the neck and dictate play.
For me, he plays in snippets, quite often deadly but just as likely to be anonymous for large parts as well, in some ways he's a 90s era number 10 playing in the modern age.
For me, he plays in snippets, quite often deadly but just as likely to be anonymous for large parts as well, in some ways he's a 90s era number 10 playing in the modern age.
Just missing a few more medals...but he is an amazing footballer.
You need stats to tell you that Bruno is not a good dribbler and that Odegaard is?
There was no contradiction I just thought it was pretty pointless to try and quantify the impact of 0.69 vs 0.96 successful take-ons per game.
My issue is with the poor interpretation of stats in that original post. Calling Bruno a better passer than Odegaard because his green bars are brighter on Fbref is a horrible way of using stats.
Our best player by a country mile
Certainly not you @58Posts
You certainly are that @58Posts
I looked at some data too….
Bruno has a tragic pass completion rate of 71%
Then look at his pass selection, total giveaways (which his so lucky to play with him teammates have to respond to) and wonder…if you were giving the ball away THAT many times doing THE SAME FECKING THING…would you not learn? The definition of insanity.
Medium Passes completion 75.4% 505 attempted/127 giveaways.
Long Passes completion 49% 309 attempted/156 giveaways.
*long/medium passes given away in total 283
Then the comparison seems to be with Odegaard for whatever reason and stats used to put a positive spin towards Bruno.
Here’s how Odegaard fares in pass completion:-
Overall 85.1% (14.1% higher)
Medium Passes completion 88% (8.6% higher) 399 attempted (106 fewer)/48 giveaways (79 fewer)
Long Passes completion 62.2% (13% higher) att 90 attempted (219 fewer) 34 giveaways (122 fewer)
*long/medium passes given away in total 82 (201 fewer than Bruno)
Attempted medium passes per 90
Bruno 19.42
Odegaard 14.56
Attempted long passes per 90
Bruno 11.88
Odegaard 3.26
Giveaways from M/L passes per 90
Bruno 10.88 (283 total)
Odegaard 3.86 (89 total)
Actual output from each player per 90
Bruno 0.30 non pen G/A
Odegaard 0.35
So you begin to see the utter madness that Bruno brings and why those who watch the game to form an opinion rather than using specific stats know that Bruno has had a terrible season. High risk and very little reward. Never fecking learning.
Conclusion it’s all his teammates faults because they don’t score or assist
G+A Non pen (per 90)
Casemiro .47
Martial .43
McT .40
Garnacho .39
Rashford .37
Hojlund .33
Bruno .30
Go figure.
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It shows how bad the squad is when this guy is one of the ‘star’ performers. It’s incredible how the star of Man Utd has fallen.
Are the chances any good though?
I don't see why his numbers would be inflated by "bad" chances any more than anyone else.
Well because he's poor in tight spaces/under pressure he tends just try anything as soon as he can compared to most.
So you think Gross, Saka, Trippier and TAA don't try things too early and are making "better" chances?
Compared to Bruno, yea.
I think that's just your impression of Bruno. I doubt there's any number or stat that would back it up.
They don't record it, so there is also no stat to argue against it.
The only thing you can look at is xg from bruno vs others.
Andreas Pereira (remember him?) has 1 less assist in 3 less games for Fulham since his move.
Whatever Bruno was in the past, he’s presently not good enough and needs to improve quickly.
Whatever Bruno was in the past, he’s presently not good enough and needs to improve quickly.
He has been our best player in the past 5 years.
Our real problem is not Bruno. Our real problem is that we do not have any players that are better than Bruno, players that are playing every week and they are great with consistency. After ETH spent 400 million, you'd expect that we have a few world class players that play every week and contribute more than Bruno. But we don't have that.
Our real problem is not Bruno. Our real problem is that we do not have any players that are better than Bruno, players that are playing every week and they are great with consistency. After ETH spent 400 million, you'd expect that we have a few world class players that play every week and contribute more than Bruno. But we don't have that.
It's interesting you say Bruno passes the eye test. For me, more than anything the stat sheet says, this is what he fails the most.
I think he losses possession in general play, way more than an elite player should.
I also think he makes a lot of questionable decisions, forcing the game far too often. I don't get this same feeling when I watch Odegaard or De Bruyne play. The feeling of "why would anybody think that's a good idea".
Andreas Pereira never has and never will perform at a similar level to Bruno. He was one of the worst players I've ever seen get consistent gametime for United.
Next you'll be posting Elanga's stats in the Garnacho thread.
Can't believe Jamie fecking Redknapp is talking more sense than half of this fanbase.
Agreed. Assists is such a weird stat to use as it relies on others scoring. Bruno consistently features in highest chances created stats.
The criticism really isn't unfair. He's been fecking wank more often than not this season. "Caring about the club" is kind of a minimum expectation for our captain who's taking home around £200k or so p/w.
Chances created is a terrible stat too
I discard anyone’s opinion if their defense of a player involves the player “caring” a lot or loving the club.
It’s not, the same measure and metric is applied to all players and Bruno comes out near the top every time, it’s indicative of a high-quality playmaker.
It doesn’t matter if you or I think a chance is created from the pass or not, all players are judged on the same parameters.
He is shite and needs to leave
It’s indicative of making passes to players that shoot. That’s literally it.
He can be a high quality playmaker in Saudi Arabia. Feel free.
Why? It removes the effect of the ability of the finishers.