He's head and shoulders our best player tbh
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 46
- Goals
- 10
- Assists
- 13
- Yellow cards
- 10
- Status
You're partially right. The problem isn't that they don't press, it's more that they know we're not set up to press efficiently, and so don't want to waste energy doing something ineffective. The only way to get top players to buy into a team press is for it to be well setup and not leave easily exploitable gaps.
Your conclusion is correct, we have to get into the 21st century and start pressing effectively. But that doesn't depend on anyone else but the manager. The players will always buy into a team press if it's effective. In fact, there's no way a player other than Messi will see his WC teammates running around like dogs, and not be ashamed to walk around.
I feel like there has been too much of an over emphasis on the setup of the press vs the desire of the players to press. No matter how good the setup is, you have to get buy in from every player to run the hard yards to make it work. One weak link and it all falls apart.
Pressing isn't the hard yards, it's standard. The hard yards is tracking back 50 odd yards after your press has been bypassed. No way any top player will want to do that again and again in a game.
Setup the press to actually be effective, and the players will press. Especially as top players, they want the ball, they want possession. Why wouldn't they want to press and get it back? Tracking back and sitting back in a deep block is a whole other issue, an issue which effectively ended Mourinho's time at the top.
Everyone wants to press nowadays, no one wants to track back or sit back. Set up an effective press, and everyone will buy in.
nah a lot of his misplaced passes are definitely misplaced because of poor execution from bruno.
To be clear, most people who are talking about Bruno’s passing stats are his advocates, not his critics. The idea that the criticism of him giving the ball away often equates to wanting a #10 who has a 90% passing accuracy is not only a straw man, but it’s a fundamental misunderstanding.
The criticism is about his decision making not his passing accuracy %. De Bruyne does occasionally go into superhero mode and it hurts his team too. Most of the time his passing selection and execution is better, though. And his decision making is a lot better, at least under Pep. Maybe Bruno would go the same way but for Portugal, in a more restrained role, it doesn’t really work like that. Which people are keen to sweep under the rug .
Yeah. I mean, obviously if that was all he did in the game then you could say he had an off day. Nothing coming off for him. But to go to the effort of clipping those moments and editing out all the good stuff he did is about as bad an example as you could possibly get of having a childish agenda against a player.
he’s not
Explain to me how player A can have better passing selection, execution of passes and make better decisions than player B, when each pass the two players make has almost the exact same chance of reaching a team mate? Because something isn’t adding up here.
The implication here is that the only objective of a pass is to reach a team mate. Any team mate, in any circumstance. Which obviously isn’t how Bruno thinks about passing. He thinks about the receiver, the timing, and how that progresses the play, often choosing to make a pass that lowers his chance of finding a team mate, in return for achieving other objectives.
Not sure why you’d try and pretend those other objectives - and thus those other markers of a well chosen, executed pass - are just a minor detail, especially given the player we’re discussing and the choices he makes.
But hey, if you think that really is the only objective of a pass, you could give Bruno some good tips. He’s definitely not aligned to that goal.
If you extend that point at all, you’d be saying that McTominay is a better passer than Bruno because he has a greater likelihood of reaching his teammate. I definitely don’t think that.
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this. Can’t take away the madness from his game. He needs to try these tough passes, long shots, etc… he’s been our best player since joining. He’s a true leader on the pitch
I have never seen Pogba press consistently for any team he has played for. Bruno will press all day. There is a difference quite frankly and it's naive to think otherwise. That's why everyone complained about Martial for years too. Not every player will buy into Klopp's system and burnout has been an issue for his teams in the past.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? When did I say the only point of passing was finding a team mate? Because making that point - in this context - gives the impression you think Bruno only matches De Bruyne’s accuracy because his passing is too vanilla (bringing McT into the discussion? wtf?). And we both know that’s the exact opposite to the way he plays the game.
I wouldn't say his decision making is poor. If anything it's the erratic execution which, provides us plenty goals and assists anyway.
Seriously would rather focus on the real issues inside the team.
Seriously would rather focus on the real issues inside the team.
When you say press I don't know if you mean run around with passion, because those are two entirely different things.
Both Pogba and Martial will press, but they won't run around chasing lost causes. That's the difference between them and Bruno (and other high workrate players).
And the point you raised about burnout is pertinent to us; in fact I'd argue that for us currently, it's smarter to conserve energy. Bruno loves to chase lost causes, but the way he was knackered last season eventually impacted us come crunch time. And Rashford also used to run around like Bruno but eventually realized it's not efficient with our current setup, and now typically conserves his energy to do damage.
Rumours that should make plenty of posters in this thread happy! Can't make sloppy passes if he can't play.
So you're just choosing to ignore that he often played out wide during those years to fit your narrative.
KDB is easily better IMO. If Bruno was at City he wouldn't have half the impact he does for us.
So what? Are we absolving the players of criticism now because we have favorites? A compilation because his crossing was laughably bad yesterday.. it seemed like he had forgotten the technique completely. Also, people here forget the actual football and just rely on stats at the end of the day.. so compilations always help get the right perspective. I don't remember Bruno having one accurate cross yesterday.. I might be wrong.
When a player plays poorly, he should be criticized so they improve - not praised or given MOTM for a woeful performance. That just validates in their mind what they should be doing every game. Ronaldo was rightly critisized for not pressing, he ran so much yesterday.
Bruno is world class and our best player but he is not above criticism.
The only point you asked about was reaching a team mate.
How can a player be a better passer on these dimesions, when he passes it just as accurately? In other words, passing accuracy is the determinant of passing quality. That's how you framed it. The question sounded deliberately obtuse on that basis, and it was certainly snarky, so that determines the response.
The simple answer is that a player can reach his team mate at exactly the same frequency, and yet be a much worse passer. A player can complete more passes accurately, and yet still choose worse passes (player, timing), and execute them less effectively (timing, weight, type).
Using passing accuracy as a measure of passing quality is obviously flawed, because Bruno is a good passer, but not a particularly accurate one. So you can very easily have player A and player B with equal passing accuracy, and different passing quality.
That's what I think applies to De Bruyne and Bruno. It's not that controversial an opinion, but if you disagree with it, that's totally reasonable. I'm cool to agree to disagree. I really don't understand why you needed to make the point in that way, why saying something so harmless - in a conversation with someone else - brought about such a response.
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It's like watching a T-Rex and Spinosaurus going at it in Jurassic Park. Or, you know Iron Man and the other guy. Great times we're living in. Carry on, chaps.
This is the most important bit regarding Bruno.
I love him but at times he gets the ball and you can see our shape is all over the place and he will try a hollywood pass which 9 times out of 10 is a giveaway to the opposition.
He needs to learn to sometimes hold on to the ball. Let us settle into some sort of a shape, play it safe and then start the next phase of attack. He doesn't exert any sort of control unless he's instructed to drop deep at which times I think he looks really good because he keeps us ticking over.
A very strange player that I wouldn't mind seeing in a bit of a deeper role and he can still deliver that killer pass.
Would a midfield alongside Donny Van de Beek work?
Why isn't Donny given a chance?
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No I'm angry because I don't know what's going on when when he goes off on his presses at random times during a game and the whole team not following him because a press doesn't work if only 2 or 3 players are doing it.
We can't even press properly as a team and why is Bruno sometimes taking it up himself to do it which leaves us at a disadvantage in midfield. We saw that happen against Leicester and they were easily able to bypass our 3 player press. Why only 3 players doing any sort of pressing only God can answer that question.
I hope you understand what I'm getting at.
Thinking on it more, perhaps the best way to set up would be something similar to the Real Madrid teams under Zidane. Where we could play off of the ball in a 442 block with Ronaldo and Cavani up top, and Bruno filing onto the left (or right) in sort of the Isco role. Might help shore up our shape and not get as overrun in midfield, and would also enable us to play Pogba and Bruno together.
This is why when people compared him to KDB that if KDB was at United we be worse but if Bruno was at City they be worse.
Bruno is the kind of player that will always give away the ball but unlike most even on a bad day has the ability to pick them through balls that others don’t possess
What Bruno does is run around aimlessly, often time for a lost cause. Pressing is a system ingrained in the players by the coaches. Each player knows when to go for the ball and when to stay back, it's not some individual effort on the part of the players. As @He'sRaldo said, you have the low work rate players like Pogba and you have the hard workers like Bruno. Depending on the player, some would be less inclined to run while others would be more inclined to run, but with effective coaching they should all be pressing. The problem is we have no system in place so individualistic efforts and what these players understand of football inevitably takes over. So in turn you'd have players who chase every ball, like Bruno and Cavani, which is not actually all that good by itself as it leaves us very open and disorganized and then you have players like Pogba and Ronaldo who will prefer to preserve energy rather than go for that 1% chance.
The problem here is simply the coaching. Bruno shouldn't be allowed to run mindlessly all over the pitch, instead players should know specifically when to go for the ball and when to stay back. This is how all the top teams do it. Now, I don't know if our coaches simply do not know how to implement it or simply do not care to implement it, but we're at this point at the moment where the lads on the field look like they've been told to have fun rather than actually play professional football.
He played out wide in few games in 2014-15, 2015-16, same in 2016-17 also.
Somehow he improved pass completion when he played under Pep.
You are choosing to ignore the playing style of the teams to fit your narrative.
Yous are arguing but he’s right about KDB playing out wide and you are right about Pep improving him.
KDB improved as a player anyway but like any player that plays in Pep’s system they improve their passing. If Bruno played at City I have a feeling he wouldn’t start right now but I think if KDB was here instead we be worse off
Most passes he misplaces in a match are shit passes not because he has some superioir tactical view. You might have a point when we where playing with substandard players but not with the team he has around hin now.
The way I can express the difference between KdB and Bruntona:
Both are able to execute difficult (risky) passes. KdB has more success on trying to execute at the lower-end of "high-risk" passes. Whilst Bruntona has more success on executing at the higher-end of "high-risk" passes.
In a more controllable system, like City, KdB is more suitable because they are most likely having the ball around the penalty box. While us is just so chaotic and is easily under pressure in games by every type of team (big and small), thus Bruntona is more suitable with his higher-end "high-risk" passing.
Of course, I could be 100% talk out of my ass because i don't provide data comparing the distance difference or can't show the difficulty level between their assists. But that's just my ballpark observation.
Both are able to execute difficult (risky) passes. KdB has more success on trying to execute at the lower-end of "high-risk" passes. Whilst Bruntona has more success on executing at the higher-end of "high-risk" passes.
In a more controllable system, like City, KdB is more suitable because they are most likely having the ball around the penalty box. While us is just so chaotic and is easily under pressure in games by every type of team (big and small), thus Bruntona is more suitable with his higher-end "high-risk" passing.
Of course, I could be 100% talk out of my ass because i don't provide data comparing the distance difference or can't show the difficulty level between their assists. But that's just my ballpark observation.
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Injured in training? Doubtful for sunday?
I agree, if you read my above post I said he was poor first half but still created a chance or two but still very poor. Second half though he was on a whole another level.
You are right we are dependent on him, hopefully some of our midfielders and wingers contribute as the season goes on.
I read a comment on Twitter that said Ole would play Bruno even if Bruno had only one leg. And I couldn't agree more.
You mentioned the 3 season prior to Pep so 16-17 doesn't count as Pep was City's manager. From 2013/14 to 2014/15 KDB played a considerable amount of games out wide for club and country. I don't get why you are trying to twist an obvious fact to suit your agenda.
Playing under Pep will more than likely lead to an improvement in passing completion but even then I can't think of a player that's played under Pep that has still been given the license to play risky passes as KDB has, so his pass completion isn't as spiked as other Pep players.
Yes, I had to mention 3 seasons prior to Pep as that's the only way to show the influence of Pep. It's not hard, it's not agenda, it's simple logical thinking. He played wide before Pep was manager, he played as wide player even under Pep (first season). So playing wide excuse somehow didn't stop him completing more than 80% of the passes.
His pass completion isn't spiked but magically his pass completion improved once he started to play under Pep. If only pass completion is somehow related to coach's playing style.
KdB averaged 78, 76, 75, 76, 70% pass completion since 2017-18.
Bruno averaged 71, 74, 74% since he joined PL.
So KdB on an average 76% playing under Pep, Bruno average 74% playing under Pep.
One player is "efficient" and other is "Careless" with possession.(2% difference with average of 50 passes per 90 mins will give 1 extra misplaced pass per 90 mins)
Yeah winger excuse can be put to bed now.
(Stats from Fbref)
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I don't think Fernandes is a huge loss against Liverpool. He doesn't seem to show up in the big games and we have Pogba as the ready-made replacement
of course I hope Fernandes is fit and he proves his critics wrong by performing against the Big Boys finally but I don't think it changes much tactically because Pogba is a world class player who can put a ball on a six-pence. Though Pogba also gets accused of being a big game bottler. Perfect time to silence the critics whoever of Fernandes or Pogba plays.
we are lucky we have Pogba chomping at the bit waiting for a chance otherwise we would have to play Lingard.
of course you could play Donny instead of Pogba if Fernandes isn't fit if Ole wants to spring a surprise, and catch Liverpool off guard with something different throw Donny in the mixer.
of course I hope Fernandes is fit and he proves his critics wrong by performing against the Big Boys finally but I don't think it changes much tactically because Pogba is a world class player who can put a ball on a six-pence. Though Pogba also gets accused of being a big game bottler. Perfect time to silence the critics whoever of Fernandes or Pogba plays.
we are lucky we have Pogba chomping at the bit waiting for a chance otherwise we would have to play Lingard.
of course you could play Donny instead of Pogba if Fernandes isn't fit if Ole wants to spring a surprise, and catch Liverpool off guard with something different throw Donny in the mixer.
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He scored and assisted in our last game against Liverpool. He scored the winner in the FA Cup in our game against Liverpool before that.
But, of course, he doesn't show up in the big games.
feck me sideways, seems we're having real back luck with injuries. Maguire, shaw, varane and now bruno.
Generally he doesn't show up in big games. Arguing against what most football experts and opposition fans say is silly as of course United fans will be bias against their own players (that's why you also look at what the experts and opposition fans think of them to get a true reflection of the truth). That's not all his fault especially if the whole team is rubbish, but he is one of the leader/captains of the team so of course we expect more from him.
I want Fernandes to play with a point to prove. Because he's capable of performing in these games.
He scored at the Etihad last season. The season before he assisted Martial against City at Old Trafford. He's also assisted against Chelsea. What are we considering big games? Because if we're talking about knock out games there's no way we get through the rounds of the Europa League without him?
Its become something that gets said a lot about Bruno, just like it was said about Cristiano until 2008. Doesn't make it true.
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