[Rozay]

That is a pretty huge statement

That’s just how I feel. I have little time for fluff commentary and the rest. When the likes of Sancho hopefully come in and nobody is talking about ‘impact to the team’ anymore - you are just a guy turning over possession again and again. It becomes more noticeable and more of an issue once your new player novelty has worn off. I don’t think I’ve seen anything that makes me think ‘yea, few other players could do that’. I’ve seen a few passes that few others could make ATTEMPTED, but not completed.

Don’t get me wrong, he’s a very good player, and night and day between the rubbish he has replaced in our team - but for a supposed elite side, where another player wants your spot - the door is always open for as I think there is a gap between his quality and the very best, and we are the sort of club where someone might actually be good enough to come in and fill that gap. For arguments sake, I think Greenwood and Sancho will soon enter the conversation for the 10 role assuming Sancho signs. I wouldn’t fancy Bruno in a fight with either over an 18 month spell. I think they are simply higher quality. Bruno, even when playing well, can’t do what they can with the ball I don’t think.

I’m not saying he should be sold or anything, but I expect him to level out as a squad player here, but of the calibre of squad player a top team should have. Someone who could possibly go and start for Spurs. But not every week for City, Barcelona, Real and hopefully, United. I appreciate he is walking on water at the moment, and I had been reluctant to go into detail about my views. That said, it’s important to say it when you feel it, otherwise later someone will call you reactionary. If my view changes later, I’ll say it then.

 

[Rozay]

Benched for Lingard. Right?
Its funny when people always want our best players subbed or sold

Are you having an argument with yourself or something?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I honestly don’t think he’s as good as is being made out personally. When we were linked/signing him - I thought he was going to be the Grealish back-up role, and once the early hype has worn off and a few more players come in and he isn’t the new guy anymore, I personally think he’ll be a sub within 18 months or so. I don’t even think that is a problem per se, he is the type of quality you want pushing to get into the side, but aside from a lot of spin and favourable stats, I don’t think he’s looked like some sort of world class midfielder personally.

That is a bold claim.

 

[Adam-Utd]

@Rozay I do agree that he needs to be a little more patient with his passing, and I do think he was today. He wasn't anywhere near as wasteful as he was against Palace or Southampton.

Maybe he's just trying too hard to impress and he will start to relax a bit. I don't think it helps that he's had to play every match and pretty much every minute. I know he's a very fit guy but his performances have started to drop off which is understandable.

What I would like to see from him is when we are struggling start to drop back a bit more and get the tempo moving. Most of the first 25 mins or so he was closer to Rashford/James and our midfield were getting pressed heavily.

He seems an intelligent guy though so i'm sure he will adjust.

He is clearly tired though as in the first few games after lockdown he was everywhere, popping up on the wings and making forward runs. Now he's gone a little missing which didn't happen before.

 

[kkj25]

He has been exceptional but it may be first season high which we will see next season (hope it isn't) but for the moment I think he needed a rest and we should have rested him. This result as pissed as I am at it, would have been much easier to take if him and others had just been given a complete rest. This is probably a terrible idea but maybe we should rest him against West ham and have him fresh for Leicester. Play Pogba as AM.

Also people bashing Fred, (not that I am a big fan or anything just supportive of my team) we need to realise that players need to be given some game time to be at it, can't just jump in against a side like Chelsea's first team midfield and expect to on it. It is unfortunate but I would rather have played the ones that haven't played and lost then to have lost this way. Mctominay was poor against palace it isn't because he suddenly isn't at it, its because he isn't match fit. Same for Fred and others.

 

[Lay]

Yeah he sometimes goes for the killer pass a bit too much and loses possession. That’s the only criticism I have of him

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I need to stop coming on RedCafe when we lose man. Some of the comments in this thread are beyond a joke. He has literally been awarded 2 POTM awards in his first two months, hasn’t lost in the Premier league, has the best G+A in the Prem since he joined (technically performing 184% over) has raised the game and commitment of our team and gives 100% every minute of the game. We should be thanking the football gods every night for having this man on our team.

Today alone he put Rashford through one on one, scored and was generally the only Utd player on this pitch that looked like he could make something happen and all the pundits said the same.

People also moaning that he needs rest, it was the semi final at Wembley for the FA Cup and this is Man Utd ffs!

As I said before, Pep has brainwashed an entire generation of people on what makes a good footballer. If you don’t wanna watch a player/team take risks, go support Burnley.

PS. Watch Kevin’s highlights against Arsenal yesterday.

Edit: He also put two corners on a plate for Matic and Maguire. Maguire basically had an open goal.

 

[He'sRaldo]

He doesn't help the midfield buildup a lot and his positioning is very high up the pitch, causing us to be overrun the past few games now. Is it just how he plays or is it the coaches instructions?

 

[Harry190]

I honestly don’t think he’s as good as is being made out personally. When we were linked/signing him - I thought he was going to be the Grealish back-up role, and once the early hype has worn off and a few more players come in and he isn’t the new guy anymore, I personally think he’ll be a sub within 18 months or so. I don’t even think that is a problem per se, he is the type of quality you want pushing to get into the side, but aside from a lot of spin and favourable stats, I don’t think he’s looked like some sort of world class midfielder personally.

My god. I hope it is worth it.

 

[Rozay]

@Rozay I do agree that he needs to be a little more patient with his passing, and I do think he was today. He wasn't anywhere near as wasteful as he was against Palace or Southampton.

Maybe he's just trying too hard to impress and he will start to relax a bit. I don't think it helps that he's had to play every match and pretty much every minute. I know he's a very fit guy but his performances have started to drop off which is understandable.

What I would like to see from him is when we are struggling start to drop back a bit more and get the tempo moving. Most of the first 25 mins or so he was closer to Rashford/James and our midfield were getting pressed heavily.

He seems an intelligent guy though so i'm sure he will adjust.

He is clearly tired though as in the first few games after lockdown he was everywhere, popping up on the wings and making forward runs. Now he's gone a little missing which didn't happen before.

Harsh as it sounds, I think it is more a (slight) quality issue. You see, I have no issue, in principle, with his quick/ambitious passing. I have more of an issue with the fact that he’s almost never able to execute them. He needs to pass better, not slower, for me. His assists have been set-pieces or square passes not worthy of the title in the main - but a lot of his forward passes that he gives away are not even that difficult. It’s the right pass. I just think, hopefully just for now, that there is a difference in what he can see and what he can execute.

In the final third, I love that he passes forward quickly. But at a point, it will count for little if you are just an average passer. We can always ‘see what he was trying to do’. It just rarely works. They are not always that hard either. The pass is on. Just play a good pass!

I agree with you on the positioning thing too, but that’s not his fault I’d say, and is something I have been thinking to make a separate thread on, but it’s clearly more of an instruction from the manager I think.

Anyway, I don’t want to be labelled a ‘Bruno hater’ or whatever, couldn’t be further from the truth, but ultimately, how much I like them doesn’t count for anything but to delude myself IMO. I just don’t think he’s as good as is made out. That said, I don’t think now is the time for that conversation, as his stock is extremely high and nobody will entertain it. But I suspect the conversation will surface at some point. It’s not about me being ‘right’ or anything, hopefully I’m not - but I think if we sign Sancho, he and Greenwood will put him under pressure.

 

[sammsky1]

I fear that we have ran him into the ground, and that has been the biggest factor in his declining performances. The man still gives effort every game, which is a credit to him, but we really haven't managed him well with rest.

That is the only reason his performances have dropped. Quite obvious really.

You could see it visibly today, he tried to sprint, but his legs wouldn't move as fast as his brain wanted them too.

 

[RepardReece]

I'm laughing at a lot of these comments. Everyone's nitpicking at every little thing he does wrong now already. The man has come in and scored/assisted 18 in 18 games and masterminded the what 19 games unbeaten run until today. Even in the games he's been quiet in he's managed to bag an assist or goal like vs Crystal Palace.

Also, feel like most of you are now judging him based on the outstanding performances he provided at the start which not even Messi can replicate week in week out. If anything, the blame should go purely to OGS if his performances haven't been up to scratch; the man hasn't been rested, really shabby management from Ole IMO. Chelsea game today was the perfect time to rest Bruno, and it didn't happen.

Without Bruno, we wouldn't be in the hunt for top 4 it's as simple as that.

 

[bondsname]

Harsh as it sounds, I think it is more a (slight) quality issue. You see, I have no issue, in principle, with his quick/ambitious passing. I have more of an issue with the fact that he’s almost never able to execute them. He needs to pass better, not slower, for me. His assists have been set-pieces or square passes not worthy of the title in the main - but a lot of his forward passes that he gives away are not even that difficult. It’s the right pass. I just think, hopefully just for now, that there is a difference in what he can see and what he can execute.

In the final third, I love that he passes forward quickly. But at a point, it will count for little if you are just an average passer. We can always ‘see what he was trying to do’. It just rarely works. They are not always that hard either. The pass is on. Just play a good pass!

I agree with you on the positioning thing too, but that’s not his fault I’d say, and is something I have been thinking to make a separate thread on, but it’s clearly more of an instruction from the manager I think.

Anyway, I don’t want to be labelled a ‘Bruno hater’ or whatever, couldn’t be further from the truth, but ultimately, how much I like them doesn’t count for anything but to delude myself IMO. I just don’t think he’s as good as is made out. That said, I don’t think now is the time for that conversation, as his stock is extremely high and nobody will entertain it. But I suspect the conversation will surface at some point. It’s not about me being ‘right’ or anything, hopefully I’m not - but I think if we sign Sancho, he and Greenwood will put him under pressure.

I partially agree with you. I think Bruno has had a fantastic start to his United career, but I'm not getting ahead of myself and thinking we have one of the best players in the league. Lots of players come here, play extremely well and we think we have a position sorted out for a couple of years, then all of a sudden they turn to.. crap. I do think Bruno has become worse and worse game by game aswell, but you could argue it's fatigue or whatever.

I want to see if he can keep performing consistently on a high level before I start fanboying for him. We have seen how much influence Bruno can have on a game, but I want to see it more often than not. I'm reserving my judgement till he has played one or two full seasons at United, he definitely has the right attrbutes and mentality to be a success here, but it can go either way.

 

[Dan_F]

It’s almost like when you’re shattered you make mistakes. Both physically and mentally. His level has definitely dropped in the last couple of games and I’d be more worried if no one else’s had. There’s a few players in our team that are right on the edge in terms of fitness at the moment.

 

[Beans]

Struggled today, not sure he's very comfortable playing counter attacking football. I think he struggled with the lack of time and space, but then the whole team did.

 

[E-mal]

He has been poorly managed and I have to say he's got to help the midfield more in possession.
Playing it around and keeping it simple.

He has been poor right from the villa game and looks shattered. Old has poorly managed his minutes.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Struggled today, not sure he's very comfortable playing counter attacking football. I think he struggled with the lack of time and space, but then the whole team did.

The middle was very congested, he didn't have much room to operate. In these sort of games you really need help from your fullbacks but ours offer nothing.

 

[tenpoless]

Don't want to criticize him when other players were clearly at fault for the goals.
The only reason why we're still in for the top 4 spot is because of him. Stop moaning.

 

[bosnian_red]

Thought he was our best player by a distance today tbh. And surprised to see some people on here almost doubt him. He's got 9 goals and 9 assists in 18 games? Sure, some of the assists are simple passes that turned into brilliant goals. That happens to everyone. Some of his goals are pens. But he's clearly a fantastic player and without a doubt our most influential AND most important player, and one with a winning attitude that we were dying for IMO.

Yeah, he's probably tired with the build up of games and playing pretty much every minute. But he still shows his quality and pops up with huge moments that change games, and he never hides in games, and runs his ass off.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

He doesn't help the midfield buildup a lot and his positioning is very high up the pitch, causing us to be overrun the past few games now. Is it just how he plays or is it the coaches instructions?

The coaches let him be. Free instructions to do what he want. Normally his decision makings are spot-on. We were planning to make quick counter-attacking this time so his passes are more immediate and forward risks. But this time he did play a good balance of more conservative passes.

Look, there are zero clear instructions, our coaches just doesn't control at all the individual positioning to the latter except for CF but even that is given freedom lately, and also our double-pivot to be more discipline but not good enough -- the shape is a mess. It has been throughout this season, but our players are talented enough to win games without needing to rely on it.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Good penalty.

Caballero saved 11 penalties out of 30, so that is actually a good record for a keeper.

 

[He'sRaldo]

The coaches let him be. Free instructions to do what he want. Normally his decision makings are spot-on. We were planning to make quick counter-attacking this time so his passes are more immediate and forward risks. But this time he did play a good balance of more conservative passes.

Look, there are zero clear instructions, our coaches just doesn't control at all the individual positioning to the latter except for CF but even that is given freedom lately, and also our double-pivot to be more discipline but not good enough -- the shape is a mess. It has been throughout this season, but our players are talented enough to win games without needing to rely on it.

I agree, just wondering if someone else sees the same thing. Unfortunately it means that most runs of form can't be sustained for very long.

 

[Tel074]

I honestly don’t think he’s as good as is being made out personally. When we were linked/signing him - I thought he was going to be the Grealish back-up role, and once the early hype has worn off and a few more players come in and he isn’t the new guy anymore, I personally think he’ll be a sub within 18 months or so. I don’t even think that is a problem per se, he is the type of quality you want pushing to get into the side, but aside from a lot of spin and favourable stats, I don’t think he’s looked like some sort of world class midfielder personally.

I really hope you are drunk because if you ain't then this is up there with post of the year and in a bad way .
If you don't think Bruno has looked world class since he has come then it's time for Spec savers my friend

 

[RuudTom83]

Other teams will become more and more aware of his talents and how to combat them...same goes for Martial & Rashford.

So it will be harder for him next season as well.

Still a wonderful player to watch, it’s just fatigue setting in the last few games.

 

[bosnian_red]

That’s just how I feel. I have little time for fluff commentary and the rest. When the likes of Sancho hopefully come in and nobody is talking about ‘impact to the team’ anymore - you are just a guy turning over possession again and again. It becomes more noticeable and more of an issue once your new player novelty has worn off. I don’t think I’ve seen anything that makes me think ‘yea, few other players could do that’. I’ve seen a few passes that few others could make ATTEMPTED, but not completed.

Don’t get me wrong, he’s a very good player, and night and day between the rubbish he has replaced in our team - but for a supposed elite side, where another player wants your spot - the door is always open for as I think there is a gap between his quality and the very best, and we are the sort of club where someone might actually be good enough to come in and fill that gap. For arguments sake, I think Greenwood and Sancho will soon enter the conversation for the 10 role assuming Sancho signs. I wouldn’t fancy Bruno in a fight with either over an 18 month spell. I think they are simply higher quality. Bruno, even when playing well, can’t do what they can with the ball I don’t think.

I’m not saying he should be sold or anything, but I expect him to level out as a squad player here, but of the calibre of squad player a top team should have. Someone who could possibly go and start for Spurs. But not every week for City, Barcelona, Real and hopefully, United. I appreciate he is walking on water at the moment, and I had been reluctant to go into detail about my views. That said, it’s important to say it when you feel it, otherwise later someone will call you reactionary. If my view changes later, I’ll say it then.

I suspect you'll change your views rather than anything else. He's a fantastic player who does take a lot of risks and won't ever be a 90% possession type of player, but we really aren't that type of team who needs him to be that. If anything, the way our team is set up, we need him to take more and more risks because the rest don't take many risks. But he's capable of playing it safe and keeping possession when he's sitting deeper, just as he's capable of playing the #10 role to perfection. Think you're severely underrating him, and regardless of how good Sancho or Greenwood become, I think he'll be right at the heart of midfield for us (who is around him will change, but he's the one player in midfield I have no doubts about will be still there in a few years starting).

Also completely disagree with the comment about him not starting every week at other top clubs. That's exactly what he'd do. He'd start without a doubt at Liverpool (and suit Klopp brilliantly tbh). At City, with David Silva leaving, he would start alongside De Bruyne (but De Bruyne is the best in the world in that position IMO). After De Bruyne, I wouldn't say there's creative midfielder who is clearly ahead of him. Maybe a few at a similar level, but not many for sure. Certainly 2nd to only De Bruyne in the premier league.

 

[Tel074]

I need to stop coming on RedCafe when we lose man. Some of the comments in this thread are beyond a joke. He has literally been awarded 2 POTM awards in his first two months, hasn’t lost in the Premier league, has the best G+A in the Prem since he joined (technically performing 184% over) has raised the game and commitment of our team and gives 100% every minute of the game. We should be thanking the football gods every night for having this man on our team.

Today alone he put Rashford through one on one, scored and was generally the only Utd player on this pitch that looked like he could make something happen and all the pundits said the same.

People also moaning that he needs rest, it was the semi final at Wembley for the FA Cup and this is Man Utd ffs!

As I said before, Pep has brainwashed an entire generation of people on what makes a good footballer. If you don’t wanna watch a player/team take risks, go support Burnley.

PS. Watch Kevin’s highlights against Arsenal yesterday.

Edit: He also put two corners on a plate for Matic and Maguire. Maguire basically had an open goal.

Spot on mate . People complaining about Bruno trying killer passes just makes me want to scream. Admire the vision he has or let's go back to Lingard and we can complain then that he never assists or scores .
This place would be telling us Messi isnt great because he doesn't win enough headers at corners

 

[Sayros]

I partially agree with you. I think Bruno has had a fantastic start to his United career, but I'm not getting ahead of myself and thinking we have one of the best players in the league. Lots of players come here, play extremely well and we think we have a position sorted out for a couple of years, then all of a sudden they turn to.. crap. I do think Bruno has become worse and worse game by game aswell, but you could argue it's fatigue or whatever.

I feel like that actually hasn't happened a lot in the last half-decade, Bruno is one of the few that came here and hit the ground running, so credit to him because he really did turn the season around. I've always felt he was in a honeymoon period with United and at some point he would balance out to be a superior player to what was there before, but nothing like the best player in the league as some might have hoped or felt for a while.

I do think a lot of his issues are just due to fatigue, and he will be a major player next season and onward, but he will also show his flaws and he won't be quite as good as he's started off but he will always be a better option than anything else there is in midfield bar Pogba, especially for the style of play Ole wants. People that want to attribute leader, or his inflated stats, etc to him but I think that's a bit overblown, I see a good player who had a great start and is now getting tired but will also come back to some sort of regular level as he's played above what I feel he is capable of delivering week-in and week-out, especially as other teams figure out ways to limit him.

That's not to say he will regress so much that he will be a substitute as @Rozay suggested, if that did happen it would mean the midfield got seriously upgraded and the new players have adapted themselves the same way Bruno has, which I think is a long shot, to be honest. If that did happen though, it can only be good for the team because in the very best teams Bruno would be an important squad player but not necessarily a key player (though he's more than capable of competing with whoever is brought in and somehow does becomes that key player).

 

[Rozay]

I suspect you'll change your views rather than anything else. He's a fantastic player who does take a lot of risks and won't ever be a 90% possession type of player, but we really aren't that type of team who needs him to be that. If anything, the way our team is set up, we need him to take more and more risks because the rest don't take many risks. But he's capable of playing it safe and keeping possession when he's sitting deeper, just as he's capable of playing the #10 role to perfection. Think you're severely underrating him, and regardless of how good Sancho or Greenwood become, I think he'll be right at the heart of midfield for us (who is around him will change, but he's the one player in midfield I have no doubts about will be still there in a few years starting).

Also completely disagree with the comment about him not starting every week at other top clubs. That's exactly what he'd do. He'd start without a doubt at Liverpool (and suit Klopp brilliantly tbh). At City, with David Silva leaving, he would start alongside De Bruyne (but De Bruyne is the best in the world in that position IMO). After De Bruyne, I wouldn't say there's creative midfielder who is clearly ahead of him. Maybe a few at a similar level, but not many for sure. Certainly 2nd to only De Bruyne in the premier league.

I see him more Eriksen level than anywhere near KDB level. As you said, we will see. He’s special in the same ways everyone was saying McTominay was special 6 months ago, to me. ‘Drive, character, passion’ and the like. As a footballer, I don’t think he’s in the highest bracket, and if you aren’t in the highest bracket at Manchester United, then you leave room for someone else to potentially take your place. I don’t think his passing or dribbling are top tier, and so far, I have been most disappointed with his shooting. Similarly to Pogba in that regard, he came with a reputation of brilliant long range shooting, but so far, his shots don’t look like troubling PL keepers, and have already lost height and power by the time they reach the goal. Similar to PP, shooting hasn’t lived up. I know he scored one vs Everton, but again, that one shouldn’t have troubled Pickford, who is simply a clown.

He has great character as has been said, but I think that side of his game is greater than his quality, based on what I’ve seen anyway. I agree that he’d start for Liverpool though, although he doesn’t look after the ball nearly well enough to replace Silva at City. I suspect that if Chelsea get Havertz they will comfortably have the better 10.

I just can’t really say I’ve seen too much with the actual ball that makes me think ‘top tier’. It seems more the intangibles, the ‘making others play better’ etc. Which we need, I’m not disputing at all. He’s well worth his place now, and one of the better forward thinking midfielders in the league at the moment. But a lot of it is a good story at the moment rather than top quality. We’re just very forgiving at the moment because that’s where the storyline is at. After most games I read ‘wasn’t that great today but still did x’. Soon, if the results start dipping, the ‘wasn’t that greats’ will start becoming more of a problem to people.

 

[Rozay]

I really hope you are drunk because if you ain't then this is up there with post of the year and in a bad way .
If you don't think Bruno has looked world class since he has come then it's time for Spec savers my friend

Okay.

 

[Jibbs]

To get the best out of Bruno Pogba partnership, we need to sign a player like Ndidi, who could do their dirty work and allow both of them to play their natural game and let them be daring and adventurous.

 

[bosnian_red]

I see him more Eriksen level than anywhere near KDB level. As you said, we will see. He’s special in the same ways everyone was saying McTominay was special 6 months ago, to me. ‘Drive, character, passion’ and the like. As a footballer, I don’t think he’s in the highest bracket, and if you aren’t in the highest bracket at Manchester United, then you leave room for someone else to potentially take your place. I don’t think his passing or dribbling are top tier, and so far, I have been most disappointed with his shooting. Similarly to Pogba in that regard, he came with a reputation of brilliant long range shooting, but so far, his shots don’t look like troubling PL keepers, and have already lost height and power by the time they reach the goal. Similar to PP, shooting hasn’t lived up. I know he scored one vs Everton, but again, that one shouldn’t have troubled Pickford, who is simply a clown.

He has great character as has been said, but I think that side of his game is greater than his quality, based on what I’ve seen anyway. I agree that he’d start for Liverpool though, although he doesn’t look after the ball nearly well enough to replace Silva at City. I suspect that if Chelsea get Havertz they will comfortably have the better 10.

I just can’t really say I’ve seen too much with the actual ball that makes me think ‘top tier’. It seems more the intangibles, the ‘making others play better’ etc. Which we need, I’m not disputing at all. He’s well worth his place now, and one of the better forward thinking midfielders in the league at the moment. But a lot of it is a good story at the moment rather than top quality. We’re just very forgiving at the moment because that’s where the storyline is at. After most games I read ‘wasn’t that great today but still did x’. Soon, if the results start dipping, the ‘wasn’t that greats’ will start becoming more of a problem to people.

I think he's someone that even if he has an off day, still produces killer passes and makes chances or scores goals. He's someone that can get 15-20 goals and 15-20 assists a season. That's huge to have. And it's his wide range of qualities, his off the ball movement, his little flicks, ability on the ball in tight spaces, his vision which is all absolutely top tier. His passing isn't De Bruyne level, but it's still excellent. His shooting is very good, nitpicking to criticize anything there (only thing is that long distance shooting is never a consistent nor reliable metric).

Disagree on Havertz.. He's an excellent young player, but think he's much more of a scorer than a creator. And don't think he goes to Chelsea anyway. We'll see I guess. Just surprised to see anyone question him considering his impact since he's come in, his productivity (9 goals and 9 assists in less than half a season), and just seeing the work rate he plays with despite everything else. It's exactly what we've been crying out for and he's without a doubt someone who is arguably world class. As I said, I think De Bruyne is alone in the world at being ahead of him for an attacking midfielder type.

 

[RooneyLegend]

I see him more Eriksen level than anywhere near KDB level. As you said, we will see. He’s special in the same ways everyone was saying McTominay was special 6 months ago, to me. ‘Drive, character, passion’ and the like. As a footballer, I don’t think he’s in the highest bracket, and if you aren’t in the highest bracket at Manchester United, then you leave room for someone else to potentially take your place. I don’t think his passing or dribbling are top tier, and so far, I have been most disappointed with his shooting. Similarly to Pogba in that regard, he came with a reputation of brilliant long range shooting, but so far, his shots don’t look like troubling PL keepers, and have already lost height and power by the time they reach the goal. Similar to PP, shooting hasn’t lived up. I know he scored one vs Everton, but again, that one shouldn’t have troubled Pickford, who is simply a clown.

He has great character as has been said, but I think that side of his game is greater than his quality, based on what I’ve seen anyway. I agree that he’d start for Liverpool though, although he doesn’t look after the ball nearly well enough to replace Silva at City. I suspect that if Chelsea get Havertz they will comfortably have the better 10.

I just can’t really say I’ve seen too much with the actual ball that makes me think ‘top tier’. It seems more the intangibles, the ‘making others play better’ etc. Which we need, I’m not disputing at all. He’s well worth his place now, and one of the better forward thinking midfielders in the league at the moment. But a lot of it is a good story at the moment rather than top quality. We’re just very forgiving at the moment because that’s where the storyline is at. After most games I read ‘wasn’t that great today but still did x’. Soon, if the results start dipping, the ‘wasn’t that greats’ will start becoming more of a problem to people.

I appreciate where you are coming from but I refuse to believe that that his passing will remain where it is, if it does, I agree with you that if our club reaches the top level his place in the first 11 would be unsustainable.

 

[Rozay]

I think he's someone that even if he has an off day, still produces killer passes and makes chances or scores goals. He's someone that can get 15-20 goals and 15-20 assists a season. That's huge to have. And it's his wide range of qualities, his off the ball movement, his little flicks, ability on the ball in tight spaces, his vision which is all absolutely top tier. His passing isn't De Bruyne level, but it's still excellent. His shooting is very good, nitpicking to criticize anything there (only thing is that long distance shooting is never a consistent nor reliable metric).

Disagree on Havertz.. He's an excellent young player, but think he's much more of a scorer than a creator. And don't think he goes to Chelsea anyway. We'll see I guess. Just surprised to see anyone question him considering his impact since he's come in, his productivity (9 goals and 9 assists in less than half a season), and just seeing the work rate he plays with despite everything else. It's exactly what we've been crying out for and he's without a doubt someone who is arguably world class. As I said, I think De Bruyne is alone in the world at being ahead of him for an attacking midfielder type.

Well we’ll just have to see, it’s clear our views differ a lot. And I’m not nitpicking to criticise on his shooting, I am making an observation based on him being seen as a long range specialist so to speak. It’s no issue to not be one, but when listing qualities, I wouldn’t include that on current viewing, as I would with Kevin.

We’ll see how things turn out over time. I try to apply context to stats too. We have gotten a record number of penalties, and yes, if we continue to do so then I agree he’ll get those sort of numbers, as he’s a great penalty taker. He also has the mentality of a goalscorer. Assists are meaningless stats to me personally. I grew up watching football where nobody cared about them as a statistic. It was either a ‘great/clever pass to set up the goal’ or it wasn’t. Now we’re in some sort of ‘does he get an assist for that?’ era. In my mind, you should not be getting praise for assisting s goal if you haven’t created a goalscoring chance. His set-piece assists against City and Chelsea off the top of my head were proper assists. Passing the ball square to a player who is not in a goalscoring situation when they receive the ball is just a completed pass to me. These things will all balance out over time anyway. If you are genuinely not creating loads of goalscoring opportunities, then chances are you will not consistently get loads of assists.

I agree with you on the flicks, he’s great at them. And he has fantastic vision, although that is half the job, as if you typically fail to execute the pass then people will soon stop praising the idea. As I said, I think he’s a very good player. And in an era where there are hardly any 10s in the game, I guess he is one of the better ones. He’s just not world class for me. A world class 10 needs to be more class than industry. His workrate is brilliant, but for a WC 10, I want to be hearing about your passing, dribbling etc before we talk about work rate. And Havertz is a tremendous passer, his final ball is far better than Bruno’s from what I’ve seen. Hopefully, as you say, he doesn’t go to Chelsea anyway.

I appreciate Bruno’s impact, lord knows we needed it. I’m just trying to, at the same time, analyse the games in an emotionless way, by the same metrics I have grown up with using to quickly identify brilliant 10s, and remove the ‘my team is playing so much better since he’s come’ emotion. Even in the few games since the restart, I think Pogba has produced more moments of pure quality than I have seen from Bruno, be it passes or dribbles. Bruno has been getting a lot of points for the attempt from what I’m seeing.

 

[Rozay]

I appreciate where you are coming from but I refuse to believe that that his passing will remain where it is, if it does, I agree with you that if our club reaches the top level his place in the first 11 would be unsustainable.

I hope so because he sees the picture/pass better than almost anyone I can think of in the game. If the execution rate starts rising, he’ll be creating buckets of chances, and have more meaningful assists to his name.

 

[Canagel]

He doesn't help the midfield buildup a lot and his positioning is very high up the pitch, causing us to be overrun the past few games now. Is it just how he plays or is it the coaches instructions?

I asked this the same question a few days ago. There is no disicpline in his positioning. Just go wherever and seemingly with license to do whatever he wants while the midfield is getting battered game after game. It's strange

 

[meamth]

@Rozay is spot on.

Bench player at best.

Bookmarked that post.

 

[Devil may care]

Because he isn't on the same level as David Silva?

That's true but my point was that we didn't set up to get the most out of his attributes.

 

[RooneyLegend]

I hope so because he sees the picture/pass better than almost anyone I can think of in the game. If the execution rate starts rising, he’ll be creating buckets of chances, and have more meaningful assists to his name.

Half the time he sees passes that don't exist. Tries them and they don't come off. Sometimes he's just been sloppy. He's misplacing some really simple passes out there.

My issue with him is a lot of the time he's pretty selfish. He wants to always be the decisive player which isn't necessary when you're playing with capable teammates. Take his pass that ended in the disallowed goal in the last game. Instead of passing to Greenwood who's free, he tries to go for the player that is directly going at the goals.

Have to disagree with you Sancho/Greenwood take though. They can't replace him. However if we were to sign a player like Thiago, then it'd be him and Pogba fighting it out for his current role and I don't think I'd favour him in that duel.

 

[RooneyLegend]

I asked this the same question a few days ago. There is no disicpline in his positioning. Just go wherever and seemingly with license to do whatever he wants while the midfield is getting battered game after game. It's strange

Has to be the coaches instructions, Gomes used to do the same when he was given a run in the side. It ends up with a player struggling to make a consistent impact in a game and a team struggling to control affairs. He can't be on the other side of the opposition midfield. He has to at least be in front of one of them so he can be a non line break pass away.

 

[Martial]

Man is clearly running around on fumes for the team.

Some people would criticise Messi after a loss on here, man.