Hmmm. Always amazes me how wages are entirely ignored by fans. Huge differences.
Brentan Rodgers
- Thread starter The Neviller
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My good man, huge clubs pay huge wages. Whatchu complaining about?
That's not really true. It's just a spin on what I said. Rodgers has been lauded on here for 18 months for his deliberate approach while the "philosophy" has been derided. Within five days of a big result both men's abilities are given a stark revisionist rewrite.
Rodgers is doing a very good job in a very difficult market based on the might of at least three other clubs. As I said, I can tolerate the losses if progress is generally evident.
I'm not complaining. Im highlighting differences in spends.
I must watch Newcastle more often. Never knew they had players of the ability of Suarez and Sterling in their ranks.
I couldn't disagree more, he's excellent at setting his team out in an attractive style but tactically I've seen him had his pants pulled down. Also the signing of Balloteli reeks that much it possibly can't be his signing. Because I can understand signing Lambert (cheap different option) but if you are going to base your game around pressing and movement then why sign Mario? Wellbeck, Tevez, Sanchez were all available to name a few that would gave fitted this style much more effectively imo.
Yes agree but Pickledred. This is where United Arsenal have left Liverpool way behind by bring miles ahead of them off the pitch. That is why now I think Arsenal are a much bigger club/draw than Liverpool even though there trophy haul doesn't reflect this. For Liverpool to be successful longterm they need a cash rich sugar daddy or a major restructuring of the field. As year in year out with their limited success the future fan base is dwindling (kids like supporting either local or winning teams) and Liverpool as a club are slipping down the ranks. Trophy haul and history doesn't mean that much to younger see Forrest or Villa for that example.
Why should he,after they lost vs Chelsea last season he said how defending is easy,weeks later they dropped 3:0 lead vs C.P.
. Decent/good manager and until he learns from his mistakes that wont change.You should have a listen to Tony Barrett's interview on the Second Captains podcast from last Monday.
He spoke in general terms of how Liverpool this season are like a club that Liverpool of old would have laughed at - basically hailing a recovery from a bad start as 'progress' while ignoring the context of a massive decline season on season. He seemed to be incredulous that the club as a whole, not just the fans, went from "champions elect" in May to 5th next March, and yet we're looking at this season as part of some sort of continued progress.
He spoke a lot of sense in my opinion, and your post above re 'the context of general progress' just brought his comments to mind, as he is obviously a massive Liverpool fan too.
He also spoke about how if Liverpool finish outside the top 4 that there may well be legitimate questions asked of Rodgers, which I disagree with, but that he was against any sort of rash move himself. I can't remember if it was he himself who brought up the possibility of Rodgers losing his job or whether it was put to him by the panel, but it did seem odd to mention it if he thought it would be a bad move.
In fairness, though - at some point they have to come to terms with the fact they've, er, slipped down the ranks permanently. They have to get back to a position from which they can allow themselves to scoff at 4th place trophies or the sort of "progress" they're enjoying this season.
If it were true that Liverpool were genuine "champions elect" before the season, Barrett would've had a point. But they weren't, were they? Liverpool nearly winning the league last season was down to several factors. The club being back on top of the English game in terms of structure, finances, pulling power, having the best squad...and so forth - was not one of them.
Brenda has taken one more step as a manager this season in my opinion. He has been knocked down severely - and managed to get back up satisfactorily. That's an important lesson for him - and, yes, in the bigger picture of "general progress" this does matter IF Liverpool's plan is to stick with Brenda.
Yes, that’s a completely fair point in terms of Rodgers’ personal progress, he will definitely take a lot from this season. That said, I’m not sure he has anything in particular solved per se – without wanting to read too much into Sunday, they were pretty abject throughout against a United team with a poor away record. It will be interesting to see how the next few games go – a loss to Arsenal, while catastrophic for top 4 hopes, might be forgivable if they go on a run for the end of the season again, but if they don’t…
Rodgers has managed to recover extremely well from a very poor start, but if the season is ended in the same vein as it began then I think that there may be a bit of pressure on him. Not that I’m saying he might lose his job in the summer, I don’t think that’s on the cards at all. But a poor end to this season would put a fairly big focus on the start of next, and the lessons he may personally take from this season won’t matter a jot.
All hypothetical of course, but it is nice to hypothesise about the doom of Liverpool.
The podcast I mentioned did go on to talk about how a couple of articles appeared in the papers over the weekend (can’t remember journos) about Rodgers which almost appeared in an interview format, but without any quotes, and how the articles were very similar in content so appeared to be briefings from somewhere, likely to be Rodgers himself given the nature of the content. I haven’t read them, but the podcast did mention that both articles mentioned how Rodgers has been interesting City and how England are also impressed by his record in getting young English players playing in a fluid style. The point is that if the articles were briefings from Rodgers, it seems coincidental that both articles mentioned links to other potential jobs unless the briefing provided also mentioned those links. It’s a bit tenuous at best and a conspiracy theory at worst, but an interesting perspective nonetheless.
Top notch banter.
Fair enough. We'll have to disagree on Liverpool's draw for top players. During the Premier League era... they've not had a manager who's left a mark like Sir Alex or Wenger, they're not really known for their attractive football over the years, they don't have a history of signing many big names, they haven't actually ever won the Premier League, they don't pay the highest wages.
Their 'prestige' and 'legacy' which, frankly, is so far removed from the Liverpool of today, is pretty irrelevant to a top player with options. Liverpool would barely enter the mind. And yes, the type of player they can attract is much more in line with Tottenham than United.
As for the rest, my point was about having a squad that on paper should be higher than fifth.
Atletico have worked wonders. That's exactly my point. Regardless of how highly people now rate their squad after the success has been achieved, on paper they've still overachieved. Wage bill for wage bill - they've overachieved. Same as Rodgers did last season.
Yes I do think it's a big task for them to build a better squad than the four teams above them. I'll put it this way - United are more likely to sign three Di Maria-caliber players in the next three seasons than Liverpool signing just one. And the reality is - it's that caliber of player that wins the title year after year. Long gone are the days when someone like Wenger could build a ridiculous team with modest fees and wages.
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JohnoWhite, is that you?
Again, I can't even understand your reasoning. The league and FA Cup are two different things, you don't need a good season to win the FA Cup - that's the beauty of it, doesn't mean you're overachieving. Just had a good cup run. Winning the FA Cup was a realistic goal for Liverpool before the beginning of the season, winning the Champions League was not. So the latter would be overachieving, the former would not.
Again I disagree - this season will be a very good season for Rodgers if he can win the FA Cup. I disagree that winning the FA Cup was a realistic goal before the season started, it was an outside 1/10 chance, similar to the probability of United winning the League (which would also be over-achieving for us at the moment). You previously stated that winning a cup can't be considered over-achieving, which I disagreed with and illustrated that winning the Champions League would be over-achieving - now you seem to agree that winning the Champions League would be over-achieving?
As I said if United had their 3rd or 4th best campaign over the last 15 years everyone would say that Van Gaal has over-achieved (which for United would be winning a PL & FA Cup double). For some reason if Rodgers achieves Liverpool's 3rd or 4th best campaign in 15 years he won't have over-achieved.
This is why I believe that Rodgers is destined for the sack, fans can't recognise that he's over-achieving.
I was thinking the same thing
He's done well to last 10.5 years
I think you can now come out of that closet
Some crazy logic going on there, most teams are at least 6/1 plus to win the FA Cup before the start of the season, to say Liverpool were 10/1 and would thereby over-achieve in winning it is just odd.
It's a cup competition and a realistic target for any top 8 Premier League team.
In probability most would be knocked out before the quarter finals - but to say we would have over-achieved if we win it is just odd.
It took @Orc 2 years of pretending to be United fan to come out finally. Well done for being in closet for 11 years. Special.
I never said anything as blasphemous and outlandish as he is. These posts are bordering on trolling.
It took @Orc 2 years of pretending to be United fan to come out finally. Well done for being in closet for 11 years. Special.
I never said anything as blasphemous and outlandish as he is. These posts are bordering on trolling.
That's true.
I wouldnt blame Rodgers so much. Liverpool is just not a football city.
Anyways, Liverpool is a club to fear again.
Liverpools net spending over the last five years is about triple Newcastles.
If you're Tottenham, maybe.
'And I do apologise Mr van Gaal, but there is feck all you can do about it.'
Yeah I know.Yeah but read Ringo07' post.
I mean its a sensible and great post and all.
Maybe my definition for over-achieving is different to yours. A manager coming in and getting the team to be more successful than 90% of other seasons in the previous couple of decades to me is the definition of over-achieving. If Van Gaal or Mourinho were to win the double for instance this year I'd say they were overachieving also.
The literal definition is to "perform better or achieve more success than expected." Now I would say that over the last 10-15 years most people expect Liverpool to finish 5th - 6th in the League and at best get to a semi final of the FA Cup and every so often to win a Milk Cup. Therefore I'd say 4th or higher is over-achieving and winning the FA Cup is over-achieving as this is more success than one would expect at the start of the season. If winning the FA Cup isn't overachieving you are implying that it is expected, which is ridiculously harsh.
Unfortunately Rodgers has created a rod for his own back. He's overachieved massively last season and now the expectation are to either qualify for the Champions League or win a trophy. Liverpool fans will call their season a failure if they finish 5th and are runners up in the FA Cup, however that is a par-for-the-course season for them.
That's why I can see him sacked by Christmas and I for one will be happy as he's a good manager who's done much better than expected.
If you're on the ground anyway.
You talk about Liverpool fans 'coming out all of a sudden', but just look what we have here. In March. Finally.
You talk about Liverpool fans 'coming out all of a sudden', but just look what we have here. In March. Finally.
That's it, Dumby - you're going straight to the bottom of my made-up league.
Ahh... But how much is wages? Don't forget those.
Oh right, ok love
To just take the bit in bold: Not sure I agree with this. Overachieving is more relative to the club's current standing (and the level of competition) than what the club did in other seasons. Plus league and cup is completely different.
You say most people expect "at best" semi-final for Liverpool. I don't really understand this. Everyone knows that the cup is unpredictable. People don't expect much beyond, perhaps, one of the top five or six clubs to win it. Over-achievement is much more easily graded in a league format.
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