Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

shamans said:
How is that? Why would we even need a change if these things didn't happen? The whole point of change is to stop that. You have to look at the trend and where it's going.

England killed one of the worlds greatest computer scientists, Alan Turing, a guy who won them the world war because he was homosexual. This was in 1950. This is in a country with centuries of social developments. At least give Qatar a chance of a few decades.
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Sorry but what happened 70 years ago is irrelevant to this discussion.

What motivation does the qatari regime have to change things if they can do whatever they want and still gain all the international prestige that comes with hosting the wc?

The lesson is not be more open to change, the lesson is money buys anything, including turning a blind eye to human rights abuses and hundreds of dead workers.

I have no idea where you get this optimism that hosting the wc will change things.
 
maniak said:
Sorry but what happened 70 years ago is irrelevant to this discussion.

What motivation does the qatari regime have to change things if they can do whatever they want and still gain all the international prestige that comes with hosting the wc?

The lesson is not be more open to change, the lesson is money buys anything, including turning a blind eye to human rights abuses and hundreds of dead workers.

I have no idea where you get this optimism that hosting the wc will change things.
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It's not irrelevant. This is the exact sort of broader picture thinking that needs to happen. It is relevant because today, England in general is one of the safest places for gay people to live at.

If in 30-40 years a country went from killing it's heroes because they were gay to complete rights, then that should show you the power of bridging gaps and giving the people a voice. You need to let societies evolve at their own pace without enforcing your practices. Not because that is immoral but it genuinely will not achieve anything.
 
shamans said:
Last I recall, a bribe goes two ways. Fifa accepted it. So why wont you boycott all Fifa games?
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First of all, it's a bit weird that of the three things I highlighted, you focused on the least serious. No one would would give a shit about bribery if the workers had been treated humanely and qatar actually showed improvements in how they treat women and lgbt citizens.

You know very well it's impossible to actively boycott everything about anything. I have even watched portugal v uruguay and I spent money buying wc panini stickers to kids in my family. What you asking is absolute purity which is impossible. When there's a specific event organized by fifa where something really horrible happens, I will boycott it.
 
Stack said:
@shamans

May I ask how old you are? This is in no way an attempt to belittle you or be condescending
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You may not because that's not relevant to the discussion and I can also ask you if you have ever stepped foot in the middle east, Qatar or similar cultures to understand the dynamics.


maniak said:
First of all, it's a bit weird that of the three things I highlighted, you focused on the least serious. No one would would give a shit about bribery if the workers had been treated humanely and qatar actually showed improvements in how they treat women and lgbt citizens.

You know very well it's impossible to actively boycott everything about anything. I have even watched portugal v uruguay and I spent money buying wc panini stickers to kids in my family. What you asking is absolute purity which is impossible. When there's a specific event organized by fifa where something really horrible happens, I will boycott it.
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Please check the post I replied to again? You literally only mention the bribe and that positive reinforcement does not work in the case of a bribe. As a result, I talked about the bribe?
 
Wibble said:
Only because they wanted the WC so much. All will revert back as soon as the WC ends. Nothing has changed.
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Plenty has changed in Qatar already due to the World Cup, the cats out of the bag

Not going to be overnight revolution but I believe a huge global event like this can accelerate social change in the area
 
shamans said:
Have things for the people of Qatar, gay or not, become worse or better since 2010?
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I just think it's inconsistent that you you are more than willing to indulge in speculation when it fits your agenda and quick to dismiss things as speculation when it doesn't.

Wibble said:
Which will be reversed as soon as the WC is over.
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shamans said:
Speculating on the future is pointless. None of us can say otherwise.
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shamans said:
It's not irrelevant. This is the exact sort of broader picture thinking that needs to happen. It is relevant because today, England in general is one of the safest places for gay people to live at.

If in 30-40 years a country went from killing it's heroes because they were gay to complete rights, then that should show you the power of bridging gaps and giving the people a voice. You need to let societies evolve at their own pace without enforcing your practices. Not because that is immoral but it genuinely will not achieve anything.
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It's irrelevant because the way most societies look at human right changed significantly. If qatar was holding the wc in 1950 I doubt most people would be talking about boycotts.

The world changed, for years football has been promoting the game as a way to unite people, we've had hundreds of campaigns about respecting many different groups of people and all kinds of minorities. To then give the ultimate award to a country that has shown they don't share these promoted values, was a slap in the face of all those who thought football was actually a way to improve the world.

I have no idea if these wc threads will be deleted after the wc, but we both know that if this thread keeps being updated, it will be to continue to report human rights abuses in qatar.

If your argument is that we should wait and let them improve their society at their own pace, and if they have to do it because they want to and not because of outside impositions, then they can do that without hosting the wc.
 
OldSchoolManc said:
I watch the news. I look on social media. It is impossible to avoid because it’s the World Cup.
There is no truth whatsoever that this is a ‘successful’ World Cup.
Do you think I’m sat in a bunker somewhere unaware of the outside world?
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Yea, probably with your blinkered and arbitrary view of what 'successful' is - but it flies in the face of what loads of people (some even in this thread) are saying along with many of the people reporting out there currently as well.
 
shamans said:
It's not irrelevant. This is the exact sort of broader picture thinking that needs to happen. It is relevant because today, England in general is one of the safest places for gay people to live at.

If in 30-40 years a country went from killing it's heroes because they were gay to complete rights, then that should show you the power of bridging gaps and giving the people a voice. You need to let societies evolve at their own pace without enforcing your practices. Not because that is immoral but it genuinely will not achieve anything.
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Sometimes things dont evolve without pressure.
I point towards the Apartheid regime in South Africa many years ago.

I live in New Zealand, we are a rugby mad country, I love the game and its pretty much a cornerstone of our culture.
28 African nations boycotted the 1976 Olympics specifically because NZ wouldnt stop accepting South African rugby teams from touring NZ. There had been in 1971 a thing called the Gleneagles agreement which revolved around sporting contact with South Africa because of their apartheid policies. Despite this gleneagles agreement countries still carried on with their contact with South African Sporting teams and one most notably was NZ. Political pressure hadnt done a thing, it hadnt forced any sort of change in South Africas policies.

NZ was completely outside what the rest of the world was trying to push for because our govt insisted sport and politics shouldnt mix.
In 1981 a South African rugby team came to tour NZ despite widespread public opposition before the tour. I tool part in those protests which were pretty much the most divisive and violent of any protests NZ had seen. The tour still went ahead but the velocity created by the protests created change. Waiting for political pressure to create change had not worked for the decades before but this protest did and the African nations boycotting the Olympics did force change.

The idea that awarding countries major sporting events in the hope that social change will happen because of that is horribly misguided.
 
shamans said:
Please check the post I replied to again? You literally only mention the bribe and that positive reinforcement does not work in the case of a bribe. As a result, I talked about the bribe?
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Post 1976

"I am boycotting a competition that is being held in qatar due to massive corruption, where hundreds (probably thousands) of workers died building the infrastructure and where the organization has made a point of being actively anti-lgbt."

You can't go from this to saying that bribery is my only issue with it. Even after that I conceded that without the other two, I could probably overlook the bribery.
 
shamans said:
You may not because that's not relevant to the discussion and I can also ask you if you have ever stepped foot in the middle east, Qatar or similar cultures to understand the dynamics.




Please check the post I replied to again? You literally only mention the bribe and that positive reinforcement does not work in the case of a bribe. As a result, I talked about the bribe?
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Fair enough on the age.

Yes I have been to the Middle East many times, my work over the years has taken me to a number of places. Egypt, UAE, Kuwait and Bahrain.
 
World history shows us time and time again that political opposition to social issues revolving around basic human rights has minimal impact.
There are plenty of examples. The 1936 Olympics being just one.
Im not in any way equating Qatar with Hitlers Germany, the point I am making is when countries and people hope for the best that political pressure will implement change nothing really happens with any appreciable pace. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-nazi-olympics-berlin-1936
 
Stack said:
Sometimes things dont evolve without pressure.
I point towards the Apartheid regime in South Africa many years ago.

I live in New Zealand, we are a rugby mad country, I love the game and its pretty much a cornerstone of our culture.
28 African nations boycotted the 1976 Olympics specifically because NZ wouldnt stop accepting South African rugby teams from touring NZ. There had been in 1971 a thing called the Gleneagles agreement which revolved around sporting contact with South Africa because of their apartheid policies. Despite this gleneagles agreement countries still carried on with their contact with South African Sporting teams and one most notably was NZ. Political pressure hadnt done a thing, it hadnt forced any sort of change in South Africas policies.

NZ was completely outside what the rest of the world was trying to push for because our govt insisted sport and politics shouldnt mix.
In 1981 a South African rugby team came to tour NZ despite widespread public opposition before the tour. I tool part in those protests which were pretty much the most divisive and violent of any protests NZ had seen. The tour still went ahead but the velocity created by the protests created change. Waiting for political pressure to create change had not worked for the decades before but this protest did and the African nations boycotting the Olympics did force change.

The idea that awarding countries major sporting events in the hope that social change will happen because of that is horribly misguided.
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It's not the 1970s, the world's a different place and dynamics of hosting a global sporting event is not comparable - the ramifications of internet, social media etc

In the 1980s we wouldnt even be able to have this kind of discussion from one side of the planet to the other

Change for the better has already started in Qatar and it will continue after the WC is over
 
Rood said:
It's not the 1970s, the world's a different place and dynamics of hosting a global sporting event is not comparable - the ramifications of internet, social media etc

In the 1980s we wouldnt even be able to have this kind of discussion from one side of the planet to the other

Change for the better has already started in Qatar and it will continue after the WC is over
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Sorry but that argument doesnt work when you look at history. Its easily comparable.

"Its not the 70s" argument is horribly weak and also misses the point I was making.
Political pressure is horribly slow in forcing change, thats been shown time and time again throughout history.

That whole "times are different" routine is a nice way to divert or deflect but falls apart when viewed through the lenses of history and social change.
 
OldSchoolManc said:
I watch the news. I look on social media. It is impossible to avoid because it’s the World Cup.
There is no truth whatsoever that this is a ‘successful’ World Cup.
Do you think I’m sat in a bunker somewhere unaware of the outside world?
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So how is this WC not successful?
 
Stack said:
Sorry but that argument doesnt work when you look at history. Its easily comparable.

"Its not the 70s" argument is horribly weak and also misses the point I was making.
Political pressure is horribly slow in forcing change, thats been shown time and time again throughout history.

That whole "times are different" routine is a nice way to divert or deflect but falls apart when viewed through the lenses of history and social change.
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It's not an argument, it's fact - no need to look back at history when the evidence for change is already there.

Since Qatar was awarded the WC there have been vast improvements in workers rights (granted from a poor starting point) and the first ever Qatari citizen has publicly come out as gay earlier this year.
These things would not have happened with the eyes of the world on Qatar due to the WC.

Still a long way to go but the wheels are already in motion
 
Rood said:
It's not an argument, it's fact - no need to look back at history when the evidence for change is already there.

Since Qatar was awarded the WC there have been vast improvements in workers rights (granted from a poor starting point) and the first ever Qatari citizen has publicly come out as gay earlier this year.
These things would not have happened with the eyes of the world on Qatar due to the WC.

Still a long way to go but the wheels are already in motion
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"The head of Qatar’s World Cup organising committee has accused teams who wanted to wear the OneLove armband at the World Cup of sending a “very divisive message” to the Islamic and Arab world."

Yeah things are so vastly improved that we get this bullshit being pushed on us.
A fecking armband is a "very divisive message"

they can feck right off.
 
Rood said:
Change for the better has already started in Qatar and it will continue after the WC is over
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The main issues people complain about are the treatment of migrant workers and lgbt community. Can you give some examples on how this is already changing for the better?
 
Wibble said:
And if that person isn't exiled or in prison by this time next year I'll be amazed.
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Dr Nas Mohamed is the first gay Qatari to publicly come out in the history of his country.

Now living in the USA, he's worked with human rights organisations to document the abuses LGBT+ people face in Qatar.

"They were kept in dungeons underground, they were subjected to physical torture, they were verbally abused as well and then subjected to conversion practices.

"The transgender individuals were subjected to forced genital inspections".

This was all done at the hands of Qatari authorities who, Dr Nas says, have permission to operate as "an unhinged mafia" due to the criminalisation of LGBT+ people in Qatar.

"They invade people's homes, they spy on people, they infiltrate dating apps and then they don't arrest - they frankly kidnap people."

The details are upsetting, but not the worst that has happened.

In order to protect the identities of those sharing what happened to them, these are just the experiences of LGBT+ people that are so widespread, it would be impossible to identify an individual from them.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-11-21...rst-out-gay-qatari-as-fas-scrap-lgbt-armbands
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Synco said:
Dr Nas Mohamed is the first gay Qatari to publicly come out in the history of his country.

Now living in the USA, he's worked with human rights organisations to document the abuses LGBT+ people face in Qatar.

"They were kept in dungeons underground, they were subjected to physical torture, they were verbally abused as well and then subjected to conversion practices.

"The transgender individuals were subjected to forced genital inspections".

This was all done at the hands of Qatari authorities who, Dr Nas says, have permission to operate as "an unhinged mafia" due to the criminalisation of LGBT+ people in Qatar.

"They invade people's homes, they spy on people, they infiltrate dating apps and then they don't arrest - they frankly kidnap people."

The details are upsetting, but not the worst that has happened.

In order to protect the identities of those sharing what happened to them, these are just the experiences of LGBT+ people that are so widespread, it would be impossible to identify an individual from them.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-11-21...rst-out-gay-qatari-as-fas-scrap-lgbt-armbands
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That was quick ;)

So not that great a step forward then? One Qatari person ever admits being gay and they are already in exile and campaigning against Qatar's appalling record.
 
MUnchies said:
Wait what? If they feck up? They are the ones accepting the bribe, which is even worse. You don't even make sense
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I assume you read my other posts, where I say the shit treatment of migrant workers and lgbt community are my main problem with this wc, right? Bribery is just the bonus topping in this shit cake.
 
Andy_Cole said:
I feel like you guys haven’t ever left the UK. Look, like Dubai, there’s so many people in these countries who are freely LGBT, going to gay nights at bars etc. The country just doesn’t want to shout about it. They aren’t out policing LGBT, looking for them and putting them in jail. The country simply doesn’t want to shout about it and officially legalise it.
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Are you sure this is true in Qatar?

Synco said:
Dr Nas Mohamed is the first gay Qatari to publicly come out in the history of his country.

Now living in the USA, he's worked with human rights organisations to document the abuses LGBT+ people face in Qatar.

"They were kept in dungeons underground, they were subjected to physical torture, they were verbally abused as well and then subjected to conversion practices.

"The transgender individuals were subjected to forced genital inspections".

This was all done at the hands of Qatari authorities who, Dr Nas says, have permission to operate as "an unhinged mafia" due to the criminalisation of LGBT+ people in Qatar.

"They invade people's homes, they spy on people, they infiltrate dating apps and then they don't arrest - they frankly kidnap people."

The details are upsetting, but not the worst that has happened.

In order to protect the identities of those sharing what happened to them, these are just the experiences of LGBT+ people that are so widespread, it would be impossible to identify an individual from them.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-11-21...rst-out-gay-qatari-as-fas-scrap-lgbt-armbands
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shamans said:
England killed one of the worlds greatest computer scientists, Alan Turing, a guy who won them the world war because he was homosexual. This was in 1950. This is in a country with centuries of social developments. At least give Qatar a chance of a few decades.
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shamans said:
If in 30-40 years a country went from killing it's heroes because they were gay to complete rights,
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Unless I've slipped into an alternative timeline the English government didn't literally kill Alan Turing.

Turing was convicted and given a choice between imprisonment and probation. His probation would be conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal physical changes designed to reduce libido, known as "chemical castration."[145] He accepted the option of injections of what was then called stilboestrol (now known as diethylstilbestrol or DES), a synthetic oestrogen; this feminization of his body was continued for the course of one year. The treatment rendered Turing impotent and caused breast tissue to form,[146] fulfilling in the literal sense Turing's prediction that "no doubt I shall emerge from it all a different man, but quite who I've not found out".

He later committed suicide.

His treatment by the British government was absolutely reprehensible and disgusting but they stopped short of killing him.
 
RacingClub said:
Unless I've slipped into an alternative timeline the English government didn't literally kill Alan Turing.

Turing was convicted and given a choice between imprisonment and probation. His probation would be conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal physical changes designed to reduce libido, known as "chemical castration."[145] He accepted the option of injections of what was then called stilboestrol (now known as diethylstilbestrol or DES), a synthetic oestrogen; this feminization of his body was continued for the course of one year. The treatment rendered Turing impotent and caused breast tissue to form,[146] fulfilling in the literal sense Turing's prediction that "no doubt I shall emerge from it all a different man, but quite who I've not found out".

He later committed suicide.

His treatment by the British government was absolutely reprehensible and disgusting but they stopped short of killing him.
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Killing would have been more humane. They drove him insane till his death
 
shamans said:
Killing would have been more humane. They drove him insane till his death
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Yup agreed, I wouldnt dream of defending any government who are guilty of cruel and unusual treatment of people due to sexual identity personally but that's just me.
 
Andy_Cole said:
I feel like you guys haven’t ever left the UK. Look, like Dubai, there’s so many people in these countries who are freely LGBT, going to gay nights at bars etc. The country just doesn’t want to shout about it. They aren’t out policing LGBT, looking for them and putting them in jail. The country simply doesn’t want to shout about it and officially legalise it.
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Got any examples of this? Qatar specifically.
 
shamans said:
This was "part of" western culture not 40-50 years ago. Societies evolve and open up to new ideas at different rates. That's never happening if you boycott them. If you held an election in Qatar on LGBTQ rights today, the results wouldn't change anything. That is to say, unless the people themselves feel a certain way you cannot force it upon them. And guess what will make people change the way they think?

Equating not boycotting the world cup to approving all LGBTQ abuse is just one of the many ridiculous things I've seen in the media. You have to look at the trajectory of a country and where it has come. Decades ago, for Qatari government to say all LGBTQ are welcome would have been insane. At the end of the day, boycotting the world cup achieves nothing for lgbtq but participating does.
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If a country can't accept LGBTQ then that country shouldn't be hosting an international tournenamant. They can bid for it again in 40-50 years once they've evolved enough to accept that.
 
Andy_Cole said:
I feel like you guys haven’t ever left the UK. Look, like Dubai, there’s so many people in these countries who are freely LGBT, going to gay nights at bars etc. The country just doesn’t want to shout about it. They aren’t out policing LGBT, looking for them and putting them in jail. The country simply doesn’t want to shout about it and officially legalise it.
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Holding Dubai up as any sort of gay haven is truly bizarre. They may be very very marginally not as bad as Qatar but that is about it, at best.

https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/rese...il-and-privilege-gay-expat-nightlife-in-dubai
 
From what I've reportedly seen. The working condition is much better than in my Country. We're still building buildings with bamboo scaffolding at times, and dont mention helmets.. some of them arent even wearing shoes at times.

And the accomodation they provided is much better housing than the majority of our worker's own house.

Countries like Singapore like to used South Asian (Bangladesh, Sri Lankan, etc) for construction workers. You should see their working condition and compare it to Qatar. You should also compare their working condition back home to Qatar.

Some of the immigrants choose to not going back and try for a better living, even illegally since whatever they're dealt with in Qatar usually is still much better than back home.

Indonesia has been exporting female workforce to become domestic helper... Not that i support this... But they're getting 10x their salary back home, and most would have come back bloody rich for their standard. Buying a house and cars and lands back in the village of the one people working in Middle East was quite normal.
 
Red Dreams said:
Shitholes like Qatar exist all over.
It was FIFA's decision to award them the WC. Because of the money they received.
The fault rests entirely with FIFA.
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Sure, fifa is as corrupt as they come, but they didn't force qatar to use semi-slave labor nor forced them to beat and torture gay people. So I guess I'll keep criticizing qatar.
 
Sky1981 said:
From what I've reportedly seen. The working condition is much better than in my Country. We're still building buildings with bamboo scaffolding at times, and dont mention helmets.. some of them arent even wearing shoes at times.

And the accomodation they provided is much better housing than the majority of our worker's own house.

Countries like Singapore like to used South Asian (Bangladesh, Sri Lankan, etc) for construction workers. You should see their working condition and compare it to Qatar. You should also compare their working condition back home to Qatar.

Some of the immigrants choose to not going back and try for a better living, even illegally since whatever they're dealt with in Qatar usually is still much better than back home.

Indonesia has been exporting female workforce to become domestic helper... Not that i support this... But they're getting 10x their salary back home, and most would have come back bloody rich for their standard. Buying a house and cars and lands back in the village of the one people working in Middle East was quite normal.
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I don't know what country you're from (guessing Indonesia or somewhere close by?) but it sounds like workers are treated like sub humans. Hopefully, they will eventually be able to unionise and stand up to the parasites that exploit them. And every person in the world that has any sense of morality will support them. Anywhere in the world where human dignity isn't respected needs to be called out.
 
Bert_ said:
I don't know what country you're from (guessing Indonesia or somewhere close by?) but it sounds like workers are treated like sub humans. Hopefully, they will eventually be able to unionise and stand up to the parasites that exploit them. And every person in the world that has any sense of morality will support them. Anywhere in the world where human dignity isn't respected needs to be called out.
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It's more complicated than that. Nobody can afford a fully unionized and full benefit pay no matter how you Western ideology think it's apt.

I've done orders for the American brand and their compliance list is enough to bankrupt my factory, and it's not like they're paying us triple. There's a reason only china and a few other nations can tackle US market. Without outsourcing your clothes would be too expensive to produce.

It's a very complicated issue.

And once you go full compliance you cant opt out. It's not a switch you can turn off or on. Workers compensation, benefits, cost of terminating workers, maintenance, and the variable cost of maintaining said compliance is enormous. And just ljke their military, there's no loyalty here. They could be your best friend this year and feck off the next year leaving you and your compliance cost running.
 
Sky1981 said:
It's more complicated than that. Nobody can afford a fully unionized and full benefit pay no matter how you Western ideology think it's apt.

I've done orders for the American brand and their compliance list is enough to bankrupt my factory, and it's not like they're paying us triple. There's a reason only china and a few other nations can tackle US market. Without outsourcing your clothes would be too expensive to produce.

It's a very complicated issue.

And once you go full compliance you cant opt out. It's not a switch you can turn off or on. Workers compensation, benefits, cost of terminating workers, maintenance, and the variable cost of maintaining said compliance is enormous. And just ljke their military, there's no loyalty here. They could be your best friend this year and feck off the next year leaving you and your compliance cost running.
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It's absolutely disgraceful that being able to provide workers with a decent standard of living is not achievable. Rampant capitalism is a cancer that will end this world.

In the UK and other western nations, workers were used as fodder by businesses. Paid just enough to keep you alive so you could still work. Once those workers stood up and said no more they ended up with the rights and privileges they have today (still nothing to write home about). But capitalism needs fodder to feed the machine so when the workers in the west stood up for themselves, the capitalists turned to the the east to seek out a new workforce that they can exploit. Once that workforce unionise and demand rights they move on to the next place and so on.

Eventually they will run out of people to exploit. At which point the the whole system come tumbling down.
 
Stack said:
"The head of Qatar’s World Cup organising committee has accused teams who wanted to wear the OneLove armband at the World Cup of sending a “very divisive message” to the Islamic and Arab world."

Yeah things are so vastly improved that we get this bullshit being pushed on us.
A fecking armband is a "very divisive message"

they can feck right off.
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Wibble said:
That was quick ;)

So not that great a step forward then? One Qatari person ever admits being gay and they are already in exile and campaigning against Qatar's appalling record.
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Of course that's a huge step forward, how to do you think these things start anywhere?
And I'm well aware of where Dr Mohamed lives and what he campaigns for - it's exactly this kind of campaigning that has started as a result of the World Cup that will continue to improve things in the region for the gay community for years to come

The question here was simply about whether this World Cup will bring positive change on human rights issues in Qatar and to me it's absolutely clear that it already has and will continue to do so. If you prefer to sit around dredging up irrelevant history from decades ago and ignore the facts of today then that's up to you.

Meanwhile I'm continuing to enjoy a World Cup that's not only great on a footballing level, but a social level too.
 
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