I've never advocating doing nothing though, atleast you've admitted it which has been hard for some.
Boycott The Qatar World Cup?
- Thread starter OldSchoolManc
- Start date
The most important thing about it: it never happened as portrayed in the cartoon.
The cartoon's insinuation that "the West" (symbolized by the EU) has silenced Özil for speaking out over the persecution of the Uighurs is fiction. The takeaway that it was the DFB that did so (not actually explicated, but implicated by the cartoon) is just as false. The cartoon mixes up several incidents and puts them together in a wrong way:
1. The reason Özil came under heavy criticism in Germany was that he and Gündogan were promoting Erdogan in a photo OP in 2018, while Erdogan was doing an election campaign. A brief summary of events, the DFB's reaction, and the reasons why Özil subsequently quit the NT can be found on wikipedia. I'd say a message supporting the Uighurs would be largely accepted and rather popular in Germany.
2. It was Arsenal who shunned Özil over his social media message about the persecution of the Uighurs. This happened 1,5 years after the events described above, which means displaying Özil in a Germany NT shirt doesn't make any sense. Arsenal was reported to have business interests in China:
Repercussions and censorship from Chinese state/media were reported afterwards.
3. In his IG message (I have to presume the translation is correct), Özil actually acknowledged the highlighting of China's treatment of the Uighurs "even in the Western media and states", but criticized the Muslim world for not doing the same. Yet the cartoon shows Özil being "silenced" by an "EU"-flagged hand, obviously standing for "the West".
This means: if the cartoon is aimed at the DFB, Özil would have to exclaim "Erdogan" there instead of "Uighurs". Doesn't really fly. If it's aimed at the pushback against Özil over his China/Uighurs message, it would have to be an "Arsenal" or "China" hand which silences him. Wouldn't really help delegitimising pro-LGBT protests in Qatar, as is the intention. So these incidents are recombined creatively to serve the purpose.
The cartoon uses alternative facts to push its talking point inside the online discourse. Reverse image search says it has seen some spread on social media, although I can't be arsed to find out how much. But it has made its way into the Caf, and judging by its reception, its messaging has worked pretty well.
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Seems like Germany is the only country that's really boycotting the WC. Ratings are at historical lows and it's not even close either. Yesterday was - by a country mile - the least watched German game at at WC or Euro and other games aren't getting ratings either.
For comparison: the game with the overall worst ratings in Germany from last WC (Morocco - Iran) drew almost as many viewers as Germany's game Japan. To add to that it only had a bit more than half the viewership of what previously was the German game with worst viewership at a WC or Euro. Wow!
For comparison: the game with the overall worst ratings in Germany from last WC (Morocco - Iran) drew almost as many viewers as Germany's game Japan. To add to that it only had a bit more than half the viewership of what previously was the German game with worst viewership at a WC or Euro. Wow!
Ok.Your reading of the cartoon seems a little bit pedantic. In my view, Özil is depicted as talking about a variety of issues, including the Uighurs, the “…” suggests it’s not the only topic (Özil complained about being faced with some racism in the DBF).
Many in the western establishment (symbolized by the EU) do shut people up and are very quick with canceling and censorship when you speak against their interests. Arsenal is just one example, it would be rather misguided to target them in particular when we know that most football organizations and clubs are no free speech champions either…
I agree that the Uighurs subject in particular would be very welcome in Germany (because the perpetrator is not an ally). But we both know criticism against Apartheid practices by the Israeli regime on the other hand could be very costly…
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That’s a great breakdown but we’re at the stage where facts hardly matter hence popularity of such bullshit. People feeling obliged to hold extreme positions and falling for convenient fakes is topic for another discussion I guess
is it an extreme position to demand that the self proclaimed human rights champions (in this case Europe footballing elite) not engage in censorship against other human rights issues?
That’s probably true for some. It’s definitely not my position. And not that of most here. I‘m happy to see the hypocrites Europeans shed some light on the abuses by Qatari regime (at least until there is a threat of a yellow card..). And I wish some of the other football association would be brave enough to speak up about European/Western war crimes (because let’s face it Europeans will not do it)… The gullibility of our public opinion here is shameful and we need it to be confronted every now and then.
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What the feck?
Understood
No! hypocrites as in the poster defending Keane and Keane himself. How you are trying to generalize it to include everyone so you can have your say is just attention seeking.
Don't tell me to wind my neck in and don't call me mate. Go away
Keane could start his own podcast or sports show in UK and people will tune in and that's facts. He doesn't have to go Qatar to get his voice heard.
Again you haven't answered my question. Isn't Keane helping their economy by paying for flight, hotel, food etc? How is that not hypocrisy
All these protests by footballers/pundits are just for virtue signaling. If they really cared about all this stuff they wouldn't have come to play football in Qatar would they? And then you see comments on social media praising these acts. Like c'mon are you so easily brainwashed? All it does is to get some extra points with the woke social justice warriors.
Absolutely fantastic post, if I could add to your rep points I would.
Synco, the slayer of whataboutism.
Shudder
Please tell us more about current or ongoing European/Western war crimes, @Pintu
I guess civilian casualties in drone strikes might play into it. And selling weapons to Saudi Arabia in their campaign in Yemen. Of course we could back track to Iraq and Afghanistan and all that. Depends on how far back we want to go.
OMG have you actually read my original post? I don't mind people criticizing pundits or whoever. Ofcourse inhumane activity against any human( boy, girl, black, white, gay, straight,disabled etc) is as bad as it can get.
I am criticizing Keane saying the world cup shouldn't be in Qatar but yet he is there helping their economy by paying for flight, hotel, food etc. If you don't like how they treat their people, don't go there simple as that. He could have refused to go there and made his voice heard in UK. Do you get it now?
If me saying that means I am in support of homophobia or any other mistreatment of people in Qatar then check yourself. Bye
Exactly what you should be asking him so we can understand where the whataboutism is occuring. Nobody is arguing for human rights abuses. Try following along next time.
This isn't the debate club and it's not whataboutism. Learn what the word means.
But I asked you, as you are the one who brought up 'sides' in this context, which seems dim and a massive oversimplification to me.
This isn't debate club, no. That said, your level of debate is, frankly, pretty pathetic. It seems to revolve largely around telling people they don't understand certain words (with no foundation for that) and desperately trying to patronize your way out of your dug in position.
This is a sensible post and, to clarify, I was really defending his right to post without silly accusations of "whataboutism". I wasn't aware of the details. Compare what you posted to some of the useless responses to his post.
It's always such a shame to see this expression used unironically by someone for the first time.
Well fecking said. It's one thing if someone called Rhyme Animal says anything on an internet forum about the issue. The reach and impacr is limited, in isolation.
Keane raising awareness and voicing his legitimate opinion, as a prominent football personality, is much more powerful.
Because you aren't following along and just going on rants. I explained to him that nobody is saying Qatar good and Germany bad. I used the word "side" since he was implying it was a whataboutism (which requires an argument to be made mind you)
No, I'm telling YOU directly you don't understand the word and it's pretty obvious. I explained already why it isn't whataboutism. I would advise following along with the thread or simply read the definition of the word. What dug-in position is that? You're just saying things.
The bolded gave me secondhand embarrassment for you. Bless.
That's an impressively shit post, that manages to summarise a lot of the arguments made. Well done
Yeah and I award him double points for the anti woke social justice warriors side.
It’s also an appeal to hypocrisy as a device to obfuscate from answering the central topic, usually because one can’t defend the indefensible.
Just because you keep saying this, it doesn't make it true. You even say: 'But b/c we all understand the implications of the picture, we scream whataboutism'...so you acknowledge that the tacit implication is 'well what about this situation?' To make it really simple for you:
Whataboutism: the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.
Does that clear things up?! Or do you still not accept that posting that picture was raising a different issue?
I'd save your embarrassment on my behalf...the way you've been going in this thread you'll need it all for yourself.
How is it a shit post? Did you even see all the marketing about the qatar protests? And then nothing happened as soon as they got warned by FIFA
It's insane how easily people get brainwashed in this day and age.
Seems like some of you will sadly never get it
Do you really need me to tell you about current/ongoing European participation and complicity in different war crimes and human rights abuses?Please tell us more about current or ongoing European/Western war crimes, @Pintu
Probably not but I still need you to tell me who proclaimed themselves human rights champion ?
I haven't watched a single match yet. Do your part caftards.
The implication as in the meaning of the picture (ie. what it implies). And you do realize one can express a tangential opinion that's not an argument, right? This isn't a difficult concept to understand.
Exactly what was the question or accusation he was responding to? I'll wait. Just admit you had no idea what the word meant so we can move on. It's ok to be wrong.
I am riled up? Ok. You don't make sense still but go on
Don't bother replying
It’s a figure of speech but I meant the 7 associations from “the UEFA Working Group on Human and Labour Rights” that said they will make their captains wear One love armbands, until it become too risky. Yellow card risky for them to stand up for gay rights.
They said in their statement among other great things that “Human rights are universal and they apply everywhere”. We both know they don’t mean that. And now we’ve learned that even in the places where human rights apply (like in Qatar) they are not worth a yellow card.
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Are you ignoring me saying my only issue is Keane being in Qatar himself saying the world cup shouldn't be there?
Keane could have been in UK and stated his disgust about Qatar just like many pundits are doing but you keep ignoring that. It's like you want me to be ok with Qatar's belief. Weird.
I have already stated my stance, you can play mental gymnastics to disagree with me. I know what I believe in
First off thanks for the clarification.
I'll take your "figure of speech" as somehow meaning something else than what I understand it to mean then.
However on your last point, I don't know that. For me they are universal, they can only be impinged upon. That some people have their human rights impinged doesn't make them any less universal. The only ones I could possible exclude is any nation that declined to be part of the convention or abstained. However while I acknowledge this I don't respect it because I don't respect the regimes that decided to decline or abstain (i.e authoritarian countries).
Can you direct me to where I implied it was an argument, please? I'll wait. Or is that just a non sequitur.
The poster was clearly responding to the criticism directed by the German national team at the 'censoring'. Or do you think it was just a random cartoon that could have been posted in any thread?
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When I say, "They don't mean that". The "they" refers again to the 7 associations. I don't believe for one second that the aforementioned associations intend to speak up on human rights abuses when they participate in sporting events in other places. And I don't believe they are sincere about "labor rights" given the contracts they have with different brands that use modern slavery in the Asian sweatshops.
Again, thanks for the needed (on my part) clarification. And while I don't agree with your view I can at least understand it now.