Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

[Marwood]

The next world cup will be in the US.

Problem is the majority of the people that are having their human rights violated by Western Democracies aren't based in said Western Democracies. If only Western Democracies held themselves as accountable as Qatar/UAE in terms of human rights maybe they wouldn't have blew up half the middle East.

Only in the West will you invade a country based on apparent weapons of mass destruction, not find said weapons, take the countries oil, meanwhile more than a million innocent people die in the same invasion but then complain about worker safety conditions in Qatar.

And if you go to America hopefully you aren't Black, Arab or Muslim.

But again, in 2026 there will be no thread in the caf saying Boycott the 2026 world cup.

I have no problem with people boycotting the Qatar world cup, however, unfortunately all nations aren't held as accountable for their actions as Qatar is. I wonder why that is.

We know the USA and UK have done terrible things but to equate the life of minorities in those countries to somewhere like Qatar is terrible. It's a position only people enjoying the benefits of Western democracies make.

If you were living as a minority somewhere like Qatar you'd have a very different take on this.

There is ample reason to say no to Qatar hosting an international tournament.

Two other countries invading Iraq 20 years ago shouldn't be a tick in the yes column for them.

 

[Pickle85]

Maybe. If you’re white.

Ugh this flippant, reductionist, 'soundbyte' method of argumentation represents everything that's wrong with today's way of debating. This is an unbelievably complex, nuanced subject that merits genuine thought and discussion...thought and discussion that's flattened by thoughtless posts like this. Yes, racial inequality and prejudice is a very serious issue and at the root still of a lot of today's social problems. So take it seriously.

 

[the_cliff]

We know the USA and UK have done terrible things but to equate the life of minorities in those countries to somewhere like Qatar is terrible. It's a position only people enjoying the benefits of Western democracies make.

If you were living as a minority somewhere like Qatar you'd have a very different take on this.

There is ample reason to say no to Qatar hosting an international tournament.

Two other countries invading Iraq 20 years ago shouldn't be a tick in the yes column for them.

I'm a minority living in the UAE and no I still have the same take.

It's a quite blatant double standard. That's all I'm saying, like I mentioned I have no problem with people boycotting the World Cup in Qatar based on human rights violations, I have a problem with people not having the same energy for different nations.

When it comes to the Middle East Western Democracies have in general a 'holier than thou' mentality. When let's be honest that's far from the case.

 

[NYAS]

Ugh this flippant, reductionist, 'soundbyte' method of argumentation represents everything that's wrong with today's way of debating. This is an unbelievably complex, nuanced subject that merits genuine thought and discussion...thought and discussion that's flattened by thoughtless posts like this. Yes, racial inequality and prejudice is a very serious issue and at the root still of a lot of today's social problems. So take it seriously.

I wasn’t interested in debating it. I was calling it out. Imagine how privileged and out of touch you have to be to even think of typing the sentence that poster has. You thinking what I said was reductionist nonsense but not seeing that issue with what he said is a massive part of the problem. I’ll leave you guys to it though. Peace!

 

[ThierryFabregas]

I wasn’t interested in debating it. I was calling it out. Imagine how privileged and out of touch you have to be to even think of typing the sentence that poster has. You thinking what I said was reductionist nonsense but not seeing that issue with what he said is a massive part of the problem. I’ll leave you guys to it though. Peace!

Stand down ladies and gentlemen it's the Privaleged Police to the rescue

 

[Pickle85]

I wasn’t interested in debating it. I was calling it out. Imagine how privileged and out of touch you have to be to even think of typing the sentence that poster has. You thinking what I said was reductionist nonsense but not seeing that issue with what he said is a massive part of the problem. I’ll leave you guys to it though. Peace!

You're not calling anything out. You're offering nothing to the discussion except a half baked, reductionist comment and a laughing emoji. Saying 'Maybe. If you're white' flattens what is an extremely nuanced debate and tries to reduce it to black and white, ignoring all other social and political contexts at play. It's facile and childish.

 

[the_cliff]

This is a facile oversimplification of what was a complicated conflict. It's also a facile generalisation of an entire country's attitude towards race. America has the infrastructure to host the world cup without throwing billions of pounds at it as well as thousands of migrant worker lives.

I'm sure if you go to Iraq and see how the country was destroyed and the amount of people that were killed, their people will feel it was justified by the explanation you've given.

Oh of course that's because they've thrown billions of pounds and thousands of migrant workers live on building the infrastructure in the 30s and 40s, so they don't need to do it now.

 

[Pickle85]

I'm sure if you go to Iraq and see how the country was destroyed and the amount of people that were killed, their people will feel it was justified by the explanation you've given.

Oh of course that's because they've thrown billions of pounds and thousands of migrant workers live on building the infrastructure in the 30s and 40s, so they don't need to do it now.

Pure whataboutery. Also, not sure why you're trying to turn this into a conversation about the Iraq war...I certainly wasn't on board with the invasion. Not sure if you've noticed but this is a thread about the Qatar World Cup. If you want to start a thread linking the American world cup and the Iraq war then knock yourself out.

 

[the_cliff]

Pure whataboutery. Also, not sure why you're trying to turn this into a conversation about the Iraq war...I certainly wasn't on board with the invasion. Not sure if you've noticed but this is a thread about the Qatar World Cup. If you want to start a thread linking the American world cup and the Iraq war then knock yourself out.

You weren't on board with the invasion but don't think there were enough human rights violations in it to warrant boycotting a World Cup in America, You think that the poilce brutality and racism is a generalisation and again doesn't warrant boycotting the US world cup.

But the human rights violation in Qatar warrants boycotting.

And there's no double standard ?

Or is is that conveniently worker conditions and deaths of migrant workers is the only human rights violations that justifies a boycott ?

 

[Pickle85]

You weren't on board with the invasion but don't think there were enough human rights violations in it to warrant boycotting a World Cup in America, You think that the poilce brutality and racism is a generalisation and again doesn't warrant boycotting the US world cup.

But the human rights violation in Qatar warrants boycotting.

And there's no double standard ?

What are you talking about? The Qatar World cup has been DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for migrant worker deaths. The condition of the workers has also been heavily criticised. These are people getting put to work on the world cup project. I'm not sure how much clearer you need me to be about the difference between boycotting an event for humans rights abuses that have taken place during its organisation and a military invasion that's totally unrelated to a sporting event.

 

[Marwood]

I'm a minority living in the UAE and no I still have the same take.

It's a quite blatant double standard. That's all I'm saying, like I mentioned I have no problem with people boycotting the World Cup in Qatar based on human rights violations, I have a problem with people not having the same energy for different nations.

When it comes to the Middle East Western Democracies have in general a 'holier than thou' mentality. When let's be honest that's far from the case.

Which state and in what sense a minority? No probs if you don't want to share personal info.

 

[the_cliff]

What are you talking about? The Qatar World cup has been DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for migrant worker deaths. The condition of the workers has also been heavily criticised. These are people getting put to work on the world cup project. I'm not sure how much clearer you need me to be about the difference between boycotting an event for humans rights abuses that have taken place during its organisation and a military invasion that's totally unrelated to a sporting event.

And Qatar in the only country to host a world cup with Migrant Worker Deaths and bad worker conditions ?

I mentioned that because plenty of people in this thread mentioned homosexuality and minority discrimination as other reasons to boycott Qatar.

 

[horsechoker]

Boycott why?
‘They were awarded it illegally’ - so go boycott FIFA then, they awarded it.
‘They have no football culture’ - see above for many places that held it who weren’t seen as footballing nations (and now, bizarrely are, maybe the WC helps..). By the way the Qataris - and the rest of the ME are football mad..
‘Stadiums have been built under poor conditions’ - there’s more focus on this and workers conditions than any building project ever. Who built the Russian ones (low paid immigrants..)
BTW if you can go there it’ll be a blast; amazing facilities, all the stadiums are a 5 min taxi ride from each other so no moving around a country and the stadiums themselves are great (and yes I visited one a few weeks ago)
It’s just more racist bullshit - but it’s Our Game not theirs (‘theirs’ in this case being Arabs..)

Sponsored by Qatar Airways

 

[Pickle85]

And Qatar in the only country to host a world cup with Migrant Worker Deaths and bad worker conditions ?

I mentioned that because plenty of people in this thread mentioned homosexuality and minority discrimination as other reasons to boycott Qatar.

More whataboutery. So because they're not the only country to do it, that makes it ok in your opinion? Also, this is the most egregious example that I can remember. You have an example to compare?

 

[Phil]

I was in Qatar during World Cup 2018. They definitely like their football there, even if it's not a traditional, Euro "football culture".

 

[SadlerMUFC]

So what if it gets disrupted. Do you want to prevent tens of countries that have hot summer climate the opportunity to host the biggest football tournament?

Yes. Hosting a world cup isn't a right, it's a privilege.

 

[Tom Cato]

Boycott why?
‘They were awarded it illegally’ - so go boycott FIFA then, they awarded it.
‘They have no football culture’ - see above for many places that held it who weren’t seen as footballing nations (and now, bizarrely are, maybe the WC helps..). By the way the Qataris - and the rest of the ME are football mad..
‘Stadiums have been built under poor conditions’ - there’s more focus on this and workers conditions than any building project ever. Who built the Russian ones (low paid immigrants..)
BTW if you can go there it’ll be a blast; amazing facilities, all the stadiums are a 5 min taxi ride from each other so no moving around a country and the stadiums themselves are great (and yes I visited one a few weeks ago)
It’s just more racist bullshit - but it’s Our Game not theirs (‘theirs’ in this case being Arabs..)

Its nice that you spent all this time confirming that you: Have no idea what racism is AND legitimately believe that there are no problems with the treatment of the immigrant workforce in Qatar.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

So you want to keep rewarding terrible theocracies with prestigious tournaments just to avoid hypocrisy? Seems incredibly shortsighted. How about starting a new way? Punishing nations who behave badly. Be it Qatar, UK or USA.



wasn't ok with Russia. Was 13 in 1994.

But nations don't have automatic rights regardless of actions. It's not how it works.




I absolutely detest this idea that all nations misbehave equally. It's awful.

People in western democracies exisiting with the highest living standards and highest levels of freedoms humans have ever experienced, comapring those democracies to Qatar and the like. Get real.

I'd love to experiment, let those people go live in Qatar for a couple of years. Then tell us the UK or USA is just as bad. Hopefully you're not poor, female, gay or an atheist.

Have you lost your mind? There were people being gunned down due to the color of their skin just last year in the United States.

Moreover, let's compare death counts due to atrocities of the UK and the US government and compare them to Qatar. Then, let's talk.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Maybe. If you’re white.

I was baffled by how ridiculous that post was.

 

[Marwood]

Have you lost your mind? There were people being gunned down due to the color of their skin just last year in the United States.

Moreover, let's compare death counts due to atrocities of the UK and the US government and compare them to Qatar. Then, let's talk.

Yeah you're doing that thing again of confirming bad things happen in the USA. We all know this.

It's incomprehensible to me you think human rights in the USA or UK are no better or similar to Qatar.

It can only be two things:

1. You genuinely don't know what goes on in Qater.

2. You're taking a liberal position for the sake of being liberal. Which inadvertently means you end up defending the indefensible.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Yeah you're doing that thing again of confirming bad things happen in the USA. We all know this.

I'm doing more than that. I'm laughing at the suggestion that it's any less horrific than what goes in Qatar.

 

[the_cliff]

More whataboutery. So because they're not the only country to do it, that makes it ok in your opinion? Also, this is the most egregious example that I can remember. You have an example to compare?

No it doesn't make it ok. Again I'm pointing out double standards. My problem is not having the same energy for other nations.

Just the last 2 world cups there were reports of the same thing. Brazil and Russia, the only difference is there wasn't major media reports and the 'official' statements by those countries were believed. Meanwhile the 'official' statements from Qatar are only 7 people died and we all know that to be bollocks.

The treatment of migrant workers and migrant workers in general is not a problem specific to Qatar. The most migrant workers in the world are in the US.

 

[horsechoker]

Unless you boycott everything bad in the world, don't boycott Qatar.

I'm off to buy the meanest nastiest blood diamonds in my Hummer that I've fitted a jet engine too powered by fois gras.

 

[Pintu]

Yeah you're doing that thing again of confirming bad things happen in the USA. We all know this.

It's incomprehensible to me you think human rights in the USA or UK are no better or similar to Qatar.

What does this even mean? Are you implying that the responsibility of a regime (democratic or not) stops when they cross the borders?

Is starving civilian populations, bombing them regularly using automated drones and destroying their houses and livelihood all right as long as it happens 10.000 miles away?

 

[Pickle85]

No it doesn't make it ok. Again I'm pointing out double standards. My problem is not having the same energy for other nations.

Just the last 2 world cups there were reports of the same thing. Brazil and Russia, the only difference is there wasn't major media reports and the 'official' statements by those countries were believed. Meanwhile the 'official' statements from Qatar are only 7 people died and we all know that to be bollocks.

The treatment of migrant workers and migrant workers in general is not a problem specific to Qatar. The most migrant workers in the world are in the US.

Again, it's not double standards as the other world cups you mentioned haven't had anything like the level of reports around human rights abuses that Qatar has. Do you think those were just cover ups? If so, why would the international community turn a blind eye to human rights abuses in Russia and Brazil, particularly when 'the west' are broadly at odds with Russia politically?

Also, what's your point when you say the most migrant workers in the world are in the US? Unless you're claiming that they're treated similarly to the way in which migrant workers in Qatar have been treated, it's utterly irrelevant. Simply employing migrant workers isn't a cause for concern, it's the way in which they're treated.

 

[Pickle85]

What does this even mean? Are you implying that the responsibility of a regime (democratic or not) stops when they cross the borders?

Is starving civilian populations, bombing them regularly using automated drones and destroying their houses and livelihood all right as long as it happens 10.000 miles away?

Absolutely not...it's indefensible. But I struggle to see the link between this and the topic at hand, when human rights abuses perpetrated by the hosts in the preparation for this world cup are what most people are using as reasons to boycott.

 

[Marwood]

What does this even mean? Are you implying that the responsibility of a regime (democratic or not) stops when they cross the borders?

Is starving civilian populations, bombing them regularly using automated drones and destroying their houses and livelihood all right as long as it happens 10.000 miles away?

Course not but it's clear I'm talking about rights within the respective countries.

Going beyond that is a huge and complex issue. You end up discussing the validities of war, casualties of war and justifications or not. We could include Iraq War but equally we could include Qatar supporting terrorism. On and on it goes.

Ironically given this conversation its highly like the USA just stopped Qatar from being invaded.

I've probably already over widened the discussion.

6500 people dying to host a tournament is enough on its own to boycott the thing.

 

[the_cliff]

Again, it's not double standards as the other world cups you mentioned haven't had anything like the level of reports around human rights abuses that Qatar has. Do you think those were just cover ups? If so, why would the international community turn a blind eye to human rights abuses in Russia and Brazil, particularly when 'the west' are broadly at odds with Russia politically?

Also, what's your point when you say the most migrant workers in the world are in the US? Unless you're claiming that they're treated similarly to the way in which migrant workers in Qatar have been treated, it's utterly irrelevant. Simply employing migrant workers isn't a cause for concern, it's the way in which they're treated.

Well there were undercover investigative journalists that went to Qatar and failed to do so in Russia/Brazil.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-24292174
https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/07/13/russias-bloody-world-cup

Idk if it's because there's more of an eye on Qatar and the Middle East in general compared to others. But the reports and investigation into Qatar was a lot more than in Russia and Brazil, who knows what would've been found if the same was done with the other 2.

The 2018 World Cup happened during Trumps presidency, which iirc there was an investigation in the ties between him and Russia.

Edit: Just as a FYI, the same builders association that claim 21 people died in the building of Russia stadiums say 31 died in the building of Qatars...

 

[simonhch]

Every nation have the right to host the world cup. Who cares about when it takes place?

The right? No. The opportunity to put forth a bid? Yes. Then bids should be judged on the merits of each. Qatar won the World Cup because of corruption and bribery. Their bid involved:

* Building a ton of air conditioned stadiums, whose capacity exceeded the population of their country. A grotesque waste of energy and resources in a world on the precipice of climate disaster.

* No lasting legacy - which was previously cited as a vital prerequisite for a successful bid by FIFA. The stadiums will be largely pointless once the tournament is over.

* No indigenous footballing culture.

* Massive amounts of travel for nearly all fans

* Unprecedented disruption to the global football calendar.

* Support of an oppressive government.

* Hostile climate conditions.

Once building started it also became clear that there were systematic human rights abuses and deaths occurring in the construction of stadiums.

But yes, every country has the right to host a World Cup. Christ.

 

[The Brown Bull]

The right? No. The opportunity to put forth a bid? Yes. Then bids should be judged on the merits of each. Qatar won the World Cup because of corruption and bribery. Their bid involved:

* Building a ton of air conditioned stadiums, whose capacity exceeded the population of their country. A grotesque waste of energy and resources in a world on the precipice of climate disaster.

* No lasting legacy - which was previously cited as a vital prerequisite for a successful bid by FIFA. The stadiums will be largely pointless once the tournament is over.

* No indigenous footballing culture.

* Massive amounts of travel for nearly all fans

* Unprecedented disruption to the global football calendar.

* Support of an oppressive government.

* Hostile climate conditions.

Once building started it also became clear that there were systematic human rights abuses and deaths occurring in the construction of stadiums.

But yes, every country has the right to host a World Cup. Christ.

Good post.

 

[Red Dreams]

This World Cup was given to them just because of money.
The fact Blatter is not in prison says a lot.

 

[Red Dreams]

Lets look at Eric's statement again.

Eric Cantona: “To be honest, I don’t really care about the next World Cup, which is not a real World Cup for me. I will NOT watch the Qatar World Cup. Thousands of workers have died building the stadiums. The decision to let them host is all about money and there will be no lasting legacy. It’s only about the money, and the way they treated the people who built the stadiums, it’s horrible.”

Clearly it was about money. Blatter always knew the worst that could happen to him was to be asked to step down.
The other FAs that voted for Qatar were always his shield.
To root out the corruption all of them along with Blatter had to be brought to the dock. Follow the money. That was never going to happen as FIFA is a political organization.

The second part of what Eric said is relevant. This World Cup will be held on the lives of those people he is referring to.
This is about FIFA who control where the World Cup is held.
Not about human rights violations of the countries hosting the tournament, which is the responsibility of the governments of the country.

 

[welshwingwizard]

The conversation seems to have moved on to morality and ethics of the country being awarded it and whilst I have an issue with slave labour being used and the anti LGBTQ+ laws, I am sympathetic with the argument that many countries that have hosted events have similarly questionable views. In fact I think often sporting events are used as a way to try to bring about change in countries by opening dialogue. It is rare the international community chooses full boycott.

So I think the bigger issue with this world Cup is that it represents the worst of Fifa. Bribery being used to ensure such a famous competition goes to a country completely unsuited to holding it and with the intension of using football to whitewash the human rights issues.

Qatar didn't have the infrastructure, history or climate to host a football competition. And when people talk about lack of culture or history it isn't a western anti Arab perspective or elitist European perspective. We get that Qataris may be hugely passionate about football. But the reality is that there is no room for growth or using the buildings.

Going into the US was strategic. It was a huge sports loving culture with an enormous population. Whilst they didn't really get football it was the opportunity to crack a new market and bring football to a new are of the world. So to so to Japan/Korea. Often other countries benefit from the infrastructure as it can be used after the competition for domestic football, other sports or concerts etc.

Qatar is simply too small for all of this infrastructure to be used after being built. Normally smaller countries at least share the competition. This one will end up being a great example of human waste - a one off event moving resources from other areas to be used one or two times and left. And all in order to whitewash human rights issues.

 

[SmashedHombre]

Better blame Fifa for this. You accuse Qatar of being corrupted but what about the most corrupt organization above all, Fifa? Maybe boycott football?

Accuse Qatar? I clearly said 'Qatar WC'. How could I accuse 'Qatar? If you mean I'm accusing the Qatari government then yes - obviously they're corrupt. Like every government on the planet.

And see, this is what I mean - you can't take a stand against anything without the 'well, why don't you take a stand against X, too?' argument. Whataboutism it not an argument. Stop trying to muddy the waters. If people want to boycott the Qatar WC because of the blatant human rights violations that have taken place to host it, then good for them. Maybe when one stand makes a difference people will then start taking more. Unfortunately, people are too apathetic, myself included, for any sort of stand to actually make a difference.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Super rich football people complaining football is all about money.

Topkek.

Absolute shambles they gave it to Qatar mind you. I'd say weather and infrastructuren should be top of the list. Let alone the fact that it disrupts the entire planets football calendar. It's like hosting a alpine skiing world cup in the Netherlands and have Mark Rutte build a multibillion euro Mountain for it.

 

[Pintu]

Course not but it's clear I'm talking about rights within the respective countries.

Going beyond that is a huge and complex issue. You end up discussing the validities of war, casualties of war and justifications or not. We could include Iraq War but equally we could include Qatar supporting terrorism. On and on it goes.

Why are you excluding rights "not within" the countries when the discussion regards "human rights". It seems extremely awkward to promote the US as the beacon of freedom and righteousness because the US only starves kids to death in other places.

6500 people dying to host a tournament is enough on its own to boycott the thing.

Allegedly about 6500 people died over a period of 11 years in working accidents related to the constructions sites. Fifa didn't kill these people. The foreign firms (Mostly European, one of them Chinese) constructing these stadiums did of course take advantage of the system in place that doesn't protect workers, and this continuing negligeance caused about 600 death/year. It might be disproportionate but people do die, and quite often in construction sites.
There are circa 2,3 million death caused by work accidents, worldwide, every year. Are you boycotting the businesses related to these deaths?

This issue is definitely no less complex than the ongoing war crimes that both the US and the UK are involved in right now. But you've managed to oversimplify it and summarise it in "6500 people dying to host a tournament",

You can talk all you want about Qatar's ties to terrorist Islamist groups, I never pretended that the regime of Qatar was a decent one, or worthy of any respect. But as another poster said, it is laughable that you are trying to make it sound worse than the actual masters (The US).

Absolutely not...it's indefensible. But I struggle to see the link between this and the topic at hand, when human rights abuses perpetrated by the hosts in the preparation for this world cup are what most people are using as reasons to boycott.

The ruling family of Qatar didn't build anything. The construction of the stadiums is operated by private firms. Most of these firms are western companies. The companies are free to employ who they want as long as they obey the Qatari laws.

While it is true that both immigration law and the Labor Codes in Qatar are worthless and do not warrant any real protection, the firms awarded these projects could have treated their workers in a dignified manner. In fact, they did provide first-class accommodations and a very comfortable working environment to the European engineers recruited for these projects.

Then of course, they didn't bother to protect the poor migrant workers. These companies acted just like the Tech giants (HP, Apple..), clothing brands (Nike, Zara..) that use sweatshops in Bangladesh, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, China in order to maximize profit, ignoring all the risks incurred by workers (many of them children by the way) at their factories/construction sites.

I am still struggling to identify the threshold at which our tolerance towards human rights violations should stop. You seem to imply that we should ignore the US/Russia's Human rights violations when considering sporting events since their Human rights violations are not related to the stadiums. I can't say for sure.

 

[stevoc]

Need to boycott Nike, Adidas, Puma, every kit supplier.
The EPL, Chelsea, Man City, Newcastle.
La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1.

The NBA. The NFL.

Might have to boycott all professional sports.

Got to use the same logic for everything.

This is the sort of thought process people use to justify not giving a feck about anything wrong going on in the world.

 

[Tyrion]

I’ve not seen this thus far, so apologies if it’s already been mentioned.
I fully agree with Eric. The next World Cup is a disgrace. Money and bribery has taken precedent over actual promotion of football. There were many examples of better venues for the next World Cup.

I stand with Eric the king.

Eric Cantona: “To be honest, I don’t really care about the next World Cup, which is not a real World Cup for me. I will NOT watch the Qatar World Cup. Thousands of workers have died building the stadiums. The decision to let them host is all about money and there will be no lasting legacy. It’s only about the money, and the way they treated the people who built the stadiums, it’s horrible.”

I completely agree and I'm glad he said it. The whole thing is tainted. That said, I'll probably see a few of the last games because everyone else I know will (probably) be talking about it.

Plus I'm Irish and international tournaments aren't for us.

 

[stevoc]

Pure whataboutery. Also, not sure why you're trying to turn this into a conversation about the Iraq war...I certainly wasn't on board with the invasion. Not sure if you've noticed but this is a thread about the Qatar World Cup. If you want to start a thread linking the American world cup and the Iraq war then knock yourself out.

You can't say a bad word or have a negative discussion about any of the middle eastern regimes on here without some feckwit jamming the US Government and/or the Iraq War into the discussion within 5-10 posts usually.

 

[Normandy]

It will certainly be interesting to see whose resolve passes the test, if their nation goes deep into the tournament.