Bloomberg: Jim Ratcliffe on plans for Man Utd

devilish said:
I like the looks of Guehi. He's smart, he's fast and he has good positioning. However he's 6ft tall. That's ok if he was the shorter CB in a 2 CB pairing. Unfortunately our other CB option is shorter then Gary Neville. So unless you want to see midfielders being tucked in not because they are talented but because they are tall :cough: McT :cough: then we need a giant at the back.

Braintwaithe is 6ft5. He is also astonishingly fast. He's even faster then Guehi (35.1km/h vs 33.92km/h) and he's way faster then Stones and Maguire. Guehi is a superior passer of the ball (87 percent vs 80 percent) and that's a concern considering that most ball playing CBs has that between 88% - 94% (Saliba, Martinez, Stones etc). For the rest though Jarrad was a better CB to Guehi last season. He won more then three times more aerial duels (95 vs 29), more interceptions (50 vs 18) and successful tackles (32 vs 19).
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To be fair, None of these stats make any sense as points of comparison as they play in different systems for different teams.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
To be fair, None of these stats make any sense as points of comparison as they play in different systems for different teams.
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They both play in a low block defense. The issue is whether their efficiency would translate well in a team with a high line. On that regard one needs a good eye and football experience
 
devilish said:
They both play in a low block defense. The issue is whether their efficiency would translate well in a team with a high line. On that regard one needs a good eye and football experience
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It’s just blinding stats waffle mate. The pace stat is perhaps the worst. Top sprint speed in km/h is a nonsensical metric.

Braithwaite - 30m in 3 seconds
Gueli- 30m in 3.3 seconds.

That doesn’t take into account acceleration, pace on the turn, how often they get caught flat footed. Nor does it account for how many times they’ve maxed out, whether they did max out. If the max speed was at the end of a 50m sprint for one and a 30m sprint for another. It’s just noise

For passing stats you’re comparing a struggling Everton side under Dyche to a sporadic Palace team under two different coaches. It doesn’t take into account what their respective instructions are, where they pass to. How safe they have to be.

For aerial duels you’ve got a fella that’s 6’5” facing 10% more corners every match and 13% more defensive final third free kicks. Of course he’s going to get his nut on the ball and clear more.

For what it’s worth, I’d take them both at sensible money. They’re really talented and easily replace Lindelof and Evans. Neither are elite centre backs but they’re plenty good enough for a top four challenge and cup runs.
 
Cassidy said:
The real question is Ashworth waiting for, from what I have seen Im not convinced. Secondly the fact we can’t negotiate for a suit does not bode well for negotiating for players
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You can only negotiate if both sides are willing, plus this is in the hands of external sources now.

What have you seen by the way?
 
ArbeitervonWien said:
Why would the poor be poorer? How about we just produce, what we need and give it to the people who need it? With noone between, skimming billion over billion. We may not produce 1500 different types of cars and 2600 types of different strawberry-yogurts. But who gives a feck about that?

Again, you are not able to even imagine a fair world. When you put a single developing country out of the global capitalist economy, of course it wouldn't fare well. The change will have to come globally. And it will, but as things stand in a different way, then I'd hope for. Climate change will probably lead to some kind of fascism. To rich countries shooting climate-refugees from their borders, while struggling inside the borders with natural disasters and crop failures.

This Churchill-quote, you might have believed it 60 years ago, but to cite it today is beyond me. Everyone with eyes can see that this system, that is driven by the delusion of eternal growth will kill the environment. It will kill our children and grandchildren. We have to come up with another system. Like we changed from feudalism to capitalism, we have to change now, or it will have catastrophic consequences.

You may say that a social-democracy like in the Scandinavic countries is the way to go. But they also lived way beyond their means while still profiting from global injustice.
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I 100% agree with you. But our society made of the average citizen an addicted consumer. So the collapse is inevitable. No one is listening to scientists.
The capitalism as we know it now will stop only when it collapse. It will be too late and a lot of people will suffer and die.
 
wolvored said:
I just saw that Ratcliffe is stating our next 3 windows will be fecked because Newcastle won’t budge on wanting 20 mill for Ashworth. If he thinks Ashworth can find the talent and save the club millions, then surely you would pay the release clause for him. Am I missing something here?
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Don't even need to read the quote to know this is absolutely 100% not what he'd have ever said.
 
Escobar said:
There is an obvious difference between hating him as the owner (where he will be judged by the fans) and his wealth or political views. If anyone judges him on a United forum on the 2nd part, then it’s idiotic
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Dislike and hate not the same thing. And again I will repeat people are free to like or dislike who they want for there own reasons. People dislike people for political views all the time I don’t particularly like Netanyahu for instance nor do I like Nigel Farage never met either of them and Ive discussed both in the general section of a United forum
 
wolvored said:
I just saw that Ratcliffe is stating our next 3 windows will be fecked because Newcastle won’t budge on wanting 20 mill for Ashworth. If he thinks Ashworth can find the talent and save the club millions, then surely you would pay the release clause for him. Am I missing something here?
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He never said that.

He was annoyed with the gardening leave clause in football.

Ashworth is part of the mgmt team he is putting together as he says it "best in class". The sooner it's together and working the sooner Utd can properly get on with making the improvements and changes they want. Our new CEO starts in mid July for example. Ashworth is Q3 of this year unless we pay Newcastle stupid money to have the gardening leave clause recinded.
 
devilsadvoca8 said:
No it doesn't, no team would be as petty as Newcastle is being now regarding a player transfer. Newcastle are the issue here not United's negotiating prowess. Even Harvey Specter would find it difficult cutting a deal with a small time petty team like Newcastle Divided. We should sit it out and he'll join in 9 months or sooner once Newcastle realise they won't see a penny
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How did we end up paying 85m for Maguire, 90m for Antony? Their clubs were not being “petty” or a better description sticking to their valuation of the loss to United?
 
Marcelinho87 said:
You can only negotiate if both sides are willing, plus this is in the hands of external sources now.

What have you seen by the way?
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He personally has mishandled this situation which is not a good look him not knowing he should not forward emails to his Newcastle email account with discussions with United whilst telling Newcastle he hasn’t had any.

At Brighton he was not actually involved in any of the staff or player acquisitions. At Newcastle he did not have a good relationship with Eddie Howe.

Not that Im saying he would be a bad hire but Im not convinced he is the savior everyone is making him out to be. To me he is still living off his reputation with England
 
Cassidy said:
The real question is Ashworth waiting for, from what I have seen Im not convinced. Secondly the fact we can’t negotiate for a suit does not bode well for negotiating for players
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We're always negotiating from a position of weakness unfortunately.
Other clubs these days have a tonne of money, so can hold out for a top price, whether it's a suit or a player.

The fact we can't get near a centre back for less than 40m these days is worrying. But then anyone under that will be a punt or a development player at our level.
 
Cassidy said:
How did we end up paying 85m for Maguire, 90m for Antony? Their clubs were not being “petty” or a better description sticking to their valuation of the loss to United?
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Maguire was loosely justifiable and he would be (arguably) good value at £60m. The VvD fee kind of fecked our spend.

Antony at that fee will forever be insane.
 
Sandikan said:
We're always negotiating from a position of weakness unfortunately.
Other clubs these days have a tonne of money, so can hold out for a top price, whether it's a suit or a player.

The fact we can't get near a centre back for less than 40m these days is worrying. But then anyone under that will be a punt or a development player at our level.
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Other clubs seems to do alot better than we do and thats a huge problem
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Maguire was loosely justifiable and he would be (arguably) good value at £60m. The VvD fee kind of fecked our spend.

Antony at that fee will forever be insane.
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Maguire fee was never justifiable even when we refused a lower fee a year earlier. The point being though that we seem to be a position where United struggle to negotiate sensibly with a number of clubs
 
Cassidy said:
Other clubs seems to do alot better than we do and thats a huge problem
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Which clubs and which players?

Chelsea are a joke in their dealings, and even City have been lashing 90-100m recently. Arsenal, 100m on Rice.
The Haaland fee can't be taken seriously at face value for a few reasons of course too.
 
Cassidy said:
Maguire fee was never justifiable even when we refused a lower fee a year earlier. The point being though that we seem to be a position where United struggle to negotiate sensibly with a number of clubs
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Us buying English players from English clubs will always be difficult, due to premier teams being so loaded these days.
 
Cassidy said:
Other clubs seems to do alot better than we do and thats a huge problem
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Other clubs have alternatives, United doesn't. You can't push for a huge fee for a player if the potential buyer just signs another player from another club. You can push United because United decides on a single player they want and will come back for him.

The saddest part of the Ashworth saga is that it unfolds just like the Antony transfer, or Fellaini, or whoever... it doesn't look like change.
 
Sandikan said:
Which clubs and which players?

Chelsea are a joke in their dealings, and even City have been lashing 90-100m recently. Arsenal, 100m on Rice.
The Haaland fee can't be taken seriously at face value for a few reasons of course too.
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You are not seriously comparing 100m Rice to 90m Antony whilst the same club paid about 35m for Timber… as well as getting Trossard, Partry, Gabriel, Saliba, Tomiyasu for good fees
 
Redfrog said:
I 100% agree with you. But our society made of the average citizen an addicted consumer. So the collapse is inevitable. No one is listening to scientists.
The capitalism as we know it now will stop only when it collapse. It will be too late and a lot of people will suffer and die.
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Football, bloody hell.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Maguire was loosely justifiable and he would be (arguably) good value at £60m. The VvD fee kind of fecked our spend.

Antony at that fee will forever be insane.
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You're right, don't let them silence you.

The Maguire fee was justified if you factor everything in: player being English, 26 years of age, one of the best CBs in the PL at that time, established international, current ability and potential ceiling, etc.

Antony was never worth anywhere near 80+, though. He's the only real big mistake we've made if you look at the transfer fees we've paid out in recent years.
 
Cassidy said:
Maguire fee was never justifiable even when we refused a lower fee a year earlier. The point being though that we seem to be a position where United struggle to negotiate sensibly with a number of clubs
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Owe I agree. But his fee in isolation is unfair.

You could completely justify even the £80m if we also scouted and signed a young, pacey partner for him.

We signed him the same year that Arsenal signed Saliba for £27m. He didn’t play for them for 3 years. They signed Gabriel a few months after for under £30m.

Obviously those two for less than Maguire is far better business. But had we signed Gabriel in 2020 I think he and Maguire could have formed an incredible partnership. Strong, fit and complementary.

Problem is, all of our signings are done in isolation.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Owe I agree. But his fee in isolation is unfair.

You could completely justify even the £80m if we also scouted and signed a young, pacey partner for him.

We signed him the same year that Arsenal signed Saliba for £27m. He didn’t play for them for 3 years. They signed Gabriel a few months after for under £30m.

Obviously those two for less than Maguire is far better business. But had we signed Gabriel in 2020 I think he and Maguire could have formed an incredible partnership. Strong, fit and complementary.

Problem is, all of our signings are done in isolation.
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Or we could have just signed Gabriel and not signed Maguire…
 
Rojofiam said:
You're right, don't let them silence you.

The Maguire fee was justified if you factor everything in: player being English, 26 years of age, one of the best CBs in the PL at that time, established international, current ability and potential ceiling, etc.

Antony was never worth anywhere near 80+, though. He's the only real big mistake we've made if you look at the transfer fees we've paid out in recent years.
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Oh mate. I’ll justify the Maguire signing but we were the only club that would have paid what we did. Right player, wrong price.

To the bold… We pay AT LEAST 25% too much for everyone. We’re like a dumb punter in a foreign land asking a taxi driver “How much to the airport” while we fan out their monthly salary in front of them in bank notes.

The ‘Adult Disneyland’ and ‘We can do things other clubs can’t’ comments should have brought criminal charges. How he kept his job after his bosses witnessing him basically saying “We’ve got loads of cash, does anyone want it”… worse than the 7-0.
 
Cassidy said:
Or we could have just signed Gabriel and not signed Maguire…
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Of course mate. But I’m operating in a world where 2019 comes before 2020.

Live as abstract as you like. But I deliberately gave a young example that we could have waited on. Or a ready example to partner him a few months later.
 
Cassidy said:
You are not seriously comparing 100m Rice to 90m Antony whilst the same club paid about 35m for Timber… as well as getting Trossard, Partry, Gabriel, Saliba, Tomiyasu for good fees
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Not sure Timber makes this list just yet.

And Antony is obviously an outlier of madness. A player who was rated at half the price, we panicked and the rest if miserable history.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Of course mate. But I’m operating in a world where 2019 comes before 2020.

Live as abstract as you like. But I deliberately gave a young example that we could have waited on. Or a ready example to partner him a few months later.
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Gabriel existed in 2019 and so did plenty of CBs
 
Sandikan said:
Not sure Timber makes this list just yet.

And Antony is obviously an outlier of madness. A player who was rated at half the price, we panicked and the rest if miserable history.
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Antony is not really an outlier for United given Maguire
 
RedRocket9908 said:
No mention of Nicholas Pepe?
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Previous regime good thing they changed tact
Before the new regime they gave Ozil and Auba 300k a week and wasted money on plenty of players including Pepe
 
Cassidy said:
Antony is not really an outlier for United given Maguire
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He really is, as he's barely contributed 4-5 good games, whereas Maguire has had a couple of good seasons in amongst a couple of dodgy ones.
 
Cassidy said:
Gabriel existed in 2019 and so did plenty of CBs
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Yes mate you’re 100% correct. He had played 15 top flight matches in Ligue 1. And 21 games in Serie B. £27m was a big gamble.

He made his Arsenal debut a year after Maguire joined us.

If Arsenal had Woodward and our money, they’d have spent silly money on Maguire instead of sensible money on Gab.

These out of context discussions are so silly.
 
Sandikan said:
He really is, as he's barely contributed 4-5 good games, whereas Maguire has had a couple of good seasons in amongst a couple of dodgy ones.
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Im talking about before they were signed for said fees
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Yes mate you’re 100% correct. He had played 15 top flight matches in Ligue 1. And 21 games in Serie B. £27m was a big gamble.

He made his Arsenal debut a year after Maguire joined us.

If Arsenal had Woodward and our money, they’d have spent silly money on Maguire instead of sensible money on Gab.

These out of context discussions are so silly.
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Maybe you have a point about Woodward because he isnt very smart when it comes to transfers but quite obviosuly they had a different idea of what they wanted for a CB (speed, strength and 1 on 1 defending) which is why they signed Saliba and Gabriel and the point really is that there were other CBs also signed by other clubs.

Context - Plenty of people including myself said on this very forum that Maguire was the wrong signing especially for the fee. There was no justification for it it was just a poor transfer. Its silly to start talking about context trying to justify it to someone who said it was wrong at the time. We could have signed a different CB with a completely different makeup in terms of the attributes. We didn’t and we paid the price. Same goes for Lindelof
 
Most concerning comment was when SJR stated that wherever he looked within the club he could see an opportunity and that would be putting it delicately. I liked the confidence when he mentioned he would improve every aspect of the club though, I just hope he’s shrewd enough to get his hands on the whole club soon. I think it would be hugely beneficial. What on earth has he seen? It doesn’t bear thinking about. I do trust in SJR though, he’s aware of the responsibility of getting this club back
 
Cassidy said:
Maybe you have a point about Woodward because he isnt very smart when it comes to transfers but quite obviosuly they had a different idea of what they wanted for a CB (speed, strength and 1 on 1 defending) which is why they signed Saliba and Gabriel and the point really is that there were other CBs also signed by other clubs.

Context - Plenty of people including myself said on this very forum that Maguire was the wrong signing especially for the fee. There was no justification for it it was just a poor transfer. Its silly to start talking about context trying to justify it to someone who said it was wrong at the time. We could have signed a different CB with a completely different makeup in terms of the attributes. We didn’t and we paid the price. Same goes for Lindelof
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We mostly agree mate. Woodward was clueless. He sauntered around like Billy big bollocks and I think justified Maguire at that fee as VvD was close to the same.

Maguire was a solid signing at the right price though. We didn’t pay the right fee. But £60m for him was 100% ‘safer’ than Saliba or Gabriel for £30 each.

Regardless, our transfers have been a mess for ages and debate over that doesn’t exist.
 
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