Being realistic

I'm not sure where the idea that many aren't happy with the job Ten Hag has done comes from.

People just confuse any mention of potential room for improvement with being unhappy with Ten Hag.

As someone who has consistently said quality of players are more important than any manager I'm well aware that our recent drop off in performances is to do with lack of options.

Also criticising the general performance of the team or being annoyed at a result like Southampton does not = criticising Ten Hag.
 
Rome wasn’t built in a day.
Next season we’ll challenge for the league but come up a little short but in year 3 we will win it.
Put this in the “quote me” thread.
Nothing surer.
 
I think it’s never been more clear that fans got wrapped up in the season than the stupid title challenge thread and complete meltdown from the Arsenal result. We are playing essentially the entire season with no striker (Weghorst is a glorified DM), with an absurd amount of fixtures (most in Europe), while not rotating much because of the piss poor depth of the squad and tremendous drop off in quality it brings.

I’m happy with ETH and know he’s the best manager we’ve had since Fergie. Does his love of Weghorst piss me off? Sure. Do I think he’s a bit obsessed with playing the same XI at all times? Probably a little. Is this season a success if we finish 3rd regardless of the other competitions we are in? No doubt.
 
I honestly think it is a big ask for us to win the other two trophy's, but I am more than happy with top four and one. It would be gutting to get to the FA Cup Final and lose to City, but if we get past Brighton...
 
Loon said:
I honestly think it is a big ask for us to win the other two trophy's, but I am more than happy with top four and one. It would be gutting to get to the FA Cup Final and lose to City, but if we get past Brighton...
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I tell you what would be worse, qualifying for the CL and losing in a pre-group stage fixture which winning the EL would avoid
 
Red in STL said:
I tell you what would be worse, qualifying for the CL and losing in a pre-group stage fixture which winning the EL would avoid
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So does finishing in the top 4 nowadays in fairness.
 
Putting Moyes aside, we have had this yo-yo feeling, under LVG, Mourinho in particular, and even Ole. 1 good season then despite all the reinforcement, we went south. So the bounce back came 1 season early, but the dip is yet to be unproven. I would be convinced of our revival, if we can achieve 2.2 points per game on average next season, i.e. 80+ points, may not be good enough to be Champion, but definitely there. Then another season of Big Push.

Just have to remember how long it take Kloop to work on Liverpool
 
If you ignore the ‘United are back’ bullshit you should be extremely happy so far with this season. I still think we’ll finish a respectable distance from the top and do well in both cups we’re in.
 
JB7 said:
So does finishing in the top 4 nowadays in fairness.
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Actually it doesn't, finishing third or fourth is not automatic qualification for the group stages, EL is
 
I think on reflection most people would consider it a good season even if we finished 4th and didn't win anymore cups.

Next season is when it will get harder for Ten Hag as people will be expecting similar improvement again and that can only happen with the help of signings, and the ownership uncertainty will quite possibly make that very difficult. It could easily drag on into the summer.
 
TheReligion said:
It’s a question mate. You know a discussion about perspective. It’s what a forum is for.

If you look closely enough there’s plenty of criticism here on the Caf too.
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Maybe his tone was a tad aggressive, but i believe his general point is valid.

There was a poll about who should get the permanent gig after Rangnick and ETH won by a landslide.

We also held a poll about our expectations going into this season, and this forum showed a good amount of patience and understanding regarding the job that has to be done at the club.

After a very bad start in the opening two games of the PL campaign, the criticism was focused on the lineups and the time ETH would need to adjust to English football while getting to know his squad at the same time. We got trashed at the Etihad and the vast majority of the forum didn't bat an eyelid. We got annihilated at Anfield and, after a week, all people talk about is what a freakish result it was and that it doesn't take away all the good things we have seen from the team. Do you honestly think that other fanbases are as "forgiving" when they see their club concede six and seven goals in the same season against their bitter rivals?

If all this isn't a clear indication that the majority of the Caf trusts ETH and acknowledges his worth as a manager, i don't know what can convince some people.

Why can't higher expectations be a compliment to ETH? I'd take high expectations every time over having posters constantly moving the goalposts to rationalize mediocre performances and lowering the bar so that their favourite manager (whoever that was) can be deemed a success.

There are a few who backed the previous regimes to the bitter end and can't let go. Fair enough. But i also see some who were on the receiving end of the stick back then but now they are willing to assume the role of the gatekeeper on this forum (not you).
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
Maybe his tone was a tad aggressive, but i believe his general point is valid.

There was a poll about who should get the permanent gig after Rangnick and ETH won by a landslide.

We also held a poll about our expectations going into this season, and this forum showed a good amount of patience and understanding regarding the job that has to be done at the club.

After a very bad start in the opening two games of the PL campaign, the criticism was focused on the lineups and the time ETH would need to adjust to English football while getting to know his squad at the same time. We got trashed at the Etihad and the vast majority of the forum didn't bat an eyelid. We got annihilated at Anfield and, after a week, all people talk about is what a freakish result it was and that it doesn't take away all the good things we have seen from the team. Do you honestly think that other fanbases are as "forgiving" when they see their club concede six and seven goals in the same season against their bitter rivals?

If all this isn't a clear indication that the majority of the Caf trusts ETH and acknowledges his worth as a manager, i don't know what can convince some people.

Why can't higher expectations be a compliment to ETH? I'd take high expectations every time over having posters constantly moving the goalposts to rationalize mediocre performances and lowering the bar so that their favourite manager (whoever that was) can be deemed a success.

There are a few who backed the previous regimes to the bitter end and can't let go. Fair enough. But i also see some who were on the receiving end of the stick back then but now they are willing to assume the role of the gatekeeper on this forum (not you).
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That’s fair enough however I do think the reasons for our struggles have been downplayed somewhat or ignored.

We all know this is a squad rebuild. We have Arsenal fans saying Arteta is well ahead of schedule at nearly 4 years in to the job (I disagree and think 3 is about par = to six transfer windows).

We have had Ten Hag here for several months and he’s had one summer window where he’s brought in 5 players. I’m not going to count winter as he wasn’t allowed to do anything he wanted in terms of the long term vision.

The squad we have is still primarily the one from last season. To add to that, we’ve been missing Casemiro, Eriksen and Martial for the vast majority of it - again if you translate this to the clubs around us, how do we think Arsenal would be getting on without Partey, Odegaard and Jesus? They can’t even manage their squad to compete in cup competitions as it is! Similarly City without their engine room centrally, Rodri and KdB, and their number one CF Haaland..

I’m not sure we all realise just how difficult it’s been for Ten Hag. When you add to the injury issues, Ronaldo, Greenwood, no winter budget you do start to get some perspective as to why we are running out of steam and our play looks disjointed.
 
TheReligion said:
That’s fair enough however I do think the reasons for our struggles have been downplayed somewhat or ignored.

We all know this is a squad rebuild. We have Arsenal fans saying Arteta is well ahead of schedule at nearly 4 years in to the job (I disagree and think 3 is about par = to six transfer windows).

We have had Ten Hag here for several months and he’s had one summer window where he’s brought in 5 players. I’m not going to count winter as he wasn’t allowed to do anything he wanted in terms of the long term vision.

The squad we have is still primarily the one from last season. To add to that, we’ve been missing Casemiro, Eriksen and Martial for the vast majority of it - again if you translate this to the clubs around us, how do we think Arsenal would be getting on without Partey, Odegaard and Jesus? They can’t even manage their squad to compete in cup competitions as it is! Similarly City without their engine room centrally, Rodri and KdB, and their number one CF Haaland..

I’m not sure we all realise just how difficult it’s been for Ten Hag. When you add to the injury issues, Ronaldo, Greenwood, no winter budget you do start to get some perspective as to why we are running out of steam and our play looks disjointed.
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I understand where you're coming from. For me, it's a matter of perspective. I see the "need" to protect ETH from any sort of unwarranted criticism because he's showing how valuable he is to this club through his work with the squad he inherited. More so at a club like United, who rely solely on the manager to provide us with a clear vision and a sense of direction, as well as a playing style. On the other hand, football fans are greedy by nature. This doesn't make them necessarily unappreciative of the work that's being done, though. I was among those who argued, at the start of the season, that i'd prefer to see a clear plan being gradually instilled over hurtling toward a top-four finish by tinkering constantly with tactics and formations. You can check my post in the aftermath of the Liverpool game for further proof. I understand the difficulties, the injuries, the hectic schedule, the lack of depth etc. I'd still feel a bit disappointed if we end up only with the EFL Cup as our only silverware of the season. Not because i want to criticize ETH, but the opposite. I actually believe he has what it takes to beat Pep in a final or to eliminate Juventus when the latter are dying to win the EL. It's a testament to the progress he's made with these players.

The soap opera with Ronaldo was further evidence of how this forum backs ETH to the hilt. Don't forget that it's easy to support the manager when things are rosy. At the time, we weren't exactly getting the results we wanted on the pitch. It wasn't even a question on this forum. You can also see in the Performance threads for yourself the panic whenever Casemiro isn't available, the frustration that comes with relying on Wout or with starting Maguire/Lindelof and McFred, the discussions about how the situation with Sancho and Martial has let the manager down or how certain players could be upgraded to suit his style better.

This forum is a good place for discussion. It has its fair share of good and bad days, but it's nothing like the rest of the internet. Give me one footy forum, besides Red Cafe, where the majority of the fans will be standing firmly behind the manager after losing 6-3 and 7-0 in the biggest derbies. Without operating like a hive mind, like RAWK, that is. A manager who still has everything to prove in terms of silverware, more so when winning trophies is the bar ETH sets for himself (another fresh of breath air compared to previous regimes). All in all, i believe he is getting the support he needs and deserves.
 
We’ve exceeded my wildest expectations in terms of results. I expected those to be patchy but for us to establish a very noticeably different style of play by this point of the season. We’ve kind of done the opposite to what I expected (I’m not complaining, just surprised). It’ll be interesting to see what changes happen to our playing style next season after he’s had another window.

First time I’ve been genuinely excited and confident (as opposed to just hopeful) about us in a long while. I actually expect us to win most weeks and am fairly relaxed before games. I’ve definitely not felt like that since about two weeks into the Moyes regime.
 
Robbie Boy said:
If you look at the posters who are most critical of ETH, you'll see a very obvious connection...
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Sorry to be a bit thick but could you spell it out for me so I don't have to pollute my brain with all their nonsense.
 
Firstly the progress has been superb and thats down to ETH and his staff as well as the influence of proven experienced winners like Cas. The OP makes good points and there is an element of over achievement for this squad and the playing staff needs improvements in the summer (highlighted by some humbling beatings this season). To make this progress sustainable the Glazers have to be gone asap otherwise they will just bask in the glory of ETHs work now and let things drift in the summer without any major spending. Also of course ETH and his staff will need to keep progressing as other teams will know more about him now (but i think thats a given with him).
 
It's worth noting we're on the same points we were at the same point in the 20-21 season in the league (50), with fewer goals scored (53 vs 41) and more goals conceded (32 vs 35).
 
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Some of you must be masochists or enjoy preaching. Reading posts/threads from users trying to be "the most rational fans on the caf", you'd think most of the forum and fans are melting down and turning against ETH when in reality it's mostly support, fans being happy with the season so far, with a few dumb/bizarre opinions thrown in.
 
We're moving in the right direction and that's all we ask for as fans. Just don't be incompetent feckups or corrupt b/wankers
 
Dion said:
It's worth noting we're on the same points we were at the same point in the 20-21 season in the league (50), with fewer goals scored (53 vs 41) and more goals conceded (32 vs 35).
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Why is that worth noting out of interest?
 
I think a lot of it comes from opposition fans. The amount of crap I read about how Ten Hag is a fraud because he’s only third after spending 200 million. Like somehow all their favourite managers did better?

Pep’s first season at City - 3rd and no trophies.
Klopp - 8th (4th in the first full season) and no trophies.
Arteta - 8th and an FA (first full season 8th again and no cups).
 
SER19 said:
Take out everything (eg what he inherited, a couple of tough player situations etc) and only focus on results.

He's played 46 and won 33. (D6 L 7) Its a ridiculous record for where we were in August. I hope we finish top 4 without stumbling over the line and if we add another trophy I'll be over the moon, but its already been a successful season.

City for example (albeit in CL not Europa) have played 43 games this season, winning 30 (D 7 L6). So he's around neck and neck with guardiola with results this season, with the caveat of easier european competition.

For the first season, by any standard, its a brilliant record and even better when you take everything into account
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A really useful post, and essentially says it all really. As I have stated, if we could end the season as things stand, I think it would be quite an outstanding achievement considering the squad we have.
 
I dont have any complaints at all about the season so far. We could end up with 3 trophies at the end of this, everyone should be happy about that.

Casemiro is the fundamental block that made everything work in the end. I still think being too reliant on Marcus Rashford to keep up his current ridiculous goalscoring record to win games needs adressing, but I expect the club to offer some help there in the summer window.

The only letdown for me so far is Antony. For the money we paid for him, he should have made an immediate difference. This notion that players need to get used to this or that, fine, but lets not pretend that a pricetag like that does not come with a set of expectations that go beyond "He will get better eventually", that is finished product money.
 
Red in STL said:
Ah I see they changed it
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Finishing 4th used to be a playoff round but I feel like they changed that like 5 years ago. 3rd has been direct for ages. The Europa League advantage is pot 1, otherwise we'll probably be pot 2 or 3 I'd imagine.

After next season the CL format changes to the league table where you play 1 home (random team) and 1 away (random team) against teams from pots 1, 2, 3, and 4 (not the same teams for home and away). Teams who finish top 8 get a bye to the round of 16, teams placed 9-24 go into a playoff for the round of 16.
 
Biggest thing for me is my friends are concerned about us this season and moving forward for the first time since SAF which says everything... They can see we are moving in the right direction whereas before we were moments FC
 
Dion said:
It's worth noting we're on the same points we were at the same point in the 20-21 season in the league (50), with fewer goals scored (53 vs 41) and more goals conceded (32 vs 35).
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So just tell us what your point is? Much easier than suggesting we note things down. What’s your angle?
 
TheReligion said:
So just tell us what your point is? Much easier than suggesting we note things down. What’s your angle?
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TheReligion said:
missed this. Bar the stats similarities are we having a similar season though do you feel?
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You could ask that question without the snarky nonsense.

Yes we are, we've had a difficult start with a shock loss to a team we should be beating and a hammering from a rival. We recovered well but crumpled somewhat under the pressure when we looked like we might be involved in a title challenge. Wins in glamour ties in Europe, navigating tricky Spanish sides quite well in the EL. Reliant offensively on one player having a remarkable season (Bruno/Rashford). We're a bit less possession orientated now than we were back then, but we're still a transition focused team. Players clearly flagging due to game build up.

It will be interesting to see what happens next year if we get recruitment right in the summer.
 
In my book you have to have lost all perspective to not be completely loving this season. Its been fantastic
 
bosnian_red said:
Finishing 4th used to be a playoff round but I feel like they changed that like 5 years ago. 3rd has been direct for ages. The Europa League advantage is pot 1, otherwise we'll probably be pot 2 or 3 I'd imagine.

After next season the CL format changes to the league table where you play 1 home (random team) and 1 away (random team) against teams from pots 1, 2, 3, and 4 (not the same teams for home and away). Teams who finish top 8 get a bye to the round of 16, teams placed 9-24 go into a playoff for the round of 16.
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I knew I'd missed something, pot 1 is the important bit, we really don't wanna be playing the likes of Bayern in the group stages, pot 2 would be my guess, can't see us as a pot 3 team
 
Dion said:
You could ask that question without the snarky nonsense.

Yes we are, we've had a difficult start with a shock loss to a team we should be beating and a hammering from a rival. We recovered well but crumpled somewhat under the pressure when we looked like we might be involved in a title challenge. Wins in glamour ties in Europe, navigating tricky Spanish sides quite well in the EL. Reliant offensively on one player having a remarkable season (Bruno/Rashford). We're a bit less possession orientated now than we were back then, but we're still a transition focused team. Players clearly flagging due to game build up.

It will be interesting to see what happens next year if we get recruitment right in the summer.
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The point about the equivalence with 20/21 is well made. And in both seasons we were overperforming in terms of league position relative to underlying metrics, so in neither case should we have been or be carried away in terms of where we stand relative to the rest of the league.

But the key bit of context is of course that 20/21 was Solskjaer's peak here, with him having been in charge since December 2018, as opposed to ETH's short run having taken over in arguably worse situation. In one case reaching this point is a lot more impressive than in the other which is why ETH carries a greater degree of confidence.

And saying we crumpled under the pressure when we looked like pushing for a title place is pushing a narrative that isn't particularly supported by the data or even the eye-test. Rather than us folding due to pressure, it would be more accurate to say that results eventually caught up to the fact that our level of performances this season have been below that of the league challengers. It wasn't due to us not dealing with the pressure, it was due to us not being as close to them as the briefly narrowed points total or overly optimistic claims of us being in a title race suggested.
 
sullydnl said:
The point about the equivalence with 20/21 is well made. And in both seasons we were overperforming in terms of league position relative to underlying metrics, so in neither case should we have been or be carried away in terms of where we stand relative to the rest of the league.

But the key bit of context is of course that 20/21 was Solskjaer's peak here, with him having been in charge since December 2018, as opposed to ETH's short run having taken over in arguably worse situation. In one case reaching this point is a lot more impressive than in the other which is why ETH carries a greater degree of confidence.

And saying we crumpled under the pressure when we looked like pushing for a title place is pushing a narrative that isn't particularly supported by the data or even the eye-test. Rather than us folding due to pressure, it would be more accurate to say that results eventually caught up to the fact that our level of performances this season have been below that of the league challengers. It wasn't due to us not dealing with the pressure, it was due to us not being as close to them as the briefly narrowed points total or overly optimistic claims of us being in a title race suggested.
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That's the case in both seasons, it's just a different descriptor.

Arsenal for example are over-performing to a far greater degree than we are, and have been all season. Lots of title winners do, consistent over-performance is a hallmark of every title winner other than City for most of the "xG" era. We were until the pressure of being in a title challenge started to bit (Palace being the big example) and then wilted. Arsenal didn't.
 
Dion said:
It's worth noting we're on the same points we were at the same point in the 20-21 season in the league (50), with fewer goals scored (53 vs 41) and more goals conceded (32 vs 35).
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Interesting. The main difference is the lack of fans in attendance.

I'd be happy with us matching the end of season points total of 74 but I'm not convinced we will. Hopefully we go one better in the Europa.
 
Red in STL said:
I knew I'd missed something, pot 1 is the important bit, we really don't wanna be playing the likes of Bayern in the group stages, pot 2 would be my guess, can't see us as a pot 3 team
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Not sure to be honest, but yeah looking at our last 5 years in Europe I'm guessing that's around pot 2 level.

18/19 - out at quarter final to Barca
19/20 - Europa League semi final loss
20/21 - Europa League final loss
21/22 - out in ro16 to atletico
22/23 - Europa League quarter final so far
 
Dion said:
You could ask that question without the snarky nonsense.

Yes we are, we've had a difficult start with a shock loss to a team we should be beating and a hammering from a rival. We recovered well but crumpled somewhat under the pressure when we looked like we might be involved in a title challenge. Wins in glamour ties in Europe, navigating tricky Spanish sides quite well in the EL. Reliant offensively on one player having a remarkable season (Bruno/Rashford). We're a bit less possession orientated now than we were back then, but we're still a transition focused team. Players clearly flagging due to game build up.

It will be interesting to see what happens next year if we get recruitment right in the summer.
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So ETH’s first season is equivalent to Ole’s best ever season, just with an actual trophy added.

Sounds like Erik’s doing a great job!
 
webbthepostie said:
Sorry to be a bit thick but could you spell it out for me so I don't have to pollute my brain with all their nonsense.
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Let's just say that a large percentage share very strong loyalties to a very recent ex-manager, who happened to be a former player.
 
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