BBC: United hold talks with Mourinho

[Traub]

They won the league and had their medium to long term future destroyed. Filipe Luís gone, De Bruyne gone, Lukaku gone, Mata gone. Not one youth prospect any closer to being a first team regular. No European football next year.

That's one hell of a price to pay for one league title. No top team around operates with the thinking that a destructive attitude like that is acceptable at the highest level. Which is why Mourinho never lasts at top clubs and won't last long at Man Utd.

Didn't he bring through Zouma? Even in place of his captain? He was also willing to let Lampard go I think - a massive move on his part.

Regarding the players you listed:
1. Luis - I don't think he ever settled properly. Add to this that Azp really couldn't be dropped as he was playing so well.
2. De Bruyne - wasn't willing to fight for his place. Arguably he was good enough to not have to fight for it - very debatable though.
3. Lukaku - same situation as De Bruyne IMO. Also, he had proven nothing at that stage yet wanted to be a title chasing side's first choice striker. Comparing it to Rashford now, I'd still want United to sign a top striker - Rashford isn't good enough yet. Now if we do sign a class striker, and Rashford complains that he wants to be first choice (like Welbeck did), I think we'd probably do the same thing as Chelsea did with Lukaku.
4. Mata - well based on his United's form, not so sure Mou made a mistake here. Plus Mata was pushed aside for Oscar IIRC. That's definitely a move for long-term.

Overall, I do agree that Mourinho definitely favours the final product over developing youth. I still maintain though that for every team being used as a stick to beat him with, he didn't have the option of developing youth. His target was always league title and the champions league. I think his first season here will be the standard top 4 target, which will allow us to see whether he is going to give youth a chance.

 

[Attila]

LVG said he wanted us to have a small squad so the youth could get some game time than having the team padded out with a lot of squad players.

But yeah, the injury situation was worse this season than anyone could have imagined and if we had less injuries, youth wouldn't have got near as much game time. Big example probably being injury to Shaw and Rojo resulting in CBJ and Riley getting a few games. If both were fit we probably wouldn't have seen either.

No Mensah or Varela at right back if the Debuchy loan went through either

 

[Traub]

Many fans on this forum have stated that they want Jose to win us the title, in the first season.
I personally feel that the 2nd season will be title winning year.

Aye, if he does come here, first season target is top 4 IMO. I don't think it is a realistic target to win the title in the first season.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Didn't he bring through Zouma? Even in place of his captain? He was also willing to let Lampard go I think - a massive move on his part.

Regarding the players you listed:
1. Luis - I don't think he ever settled properly. Add to this that Azp really couldn't be dropped as he was playing so well.
2. De Bruyne - wasn't willing to fight for his place. Arguably he was good enough to not have to fight for it - very debatable though.
3. Lukaku - same situation as De Bruyne IMO. Also, he had proven nothing at that stage yet wanted to be a title chasing side's first choice striker. Comparing it to Rashford now, I'd still want United to sign a top striker - Rashford isn't good enough yet. Now if we do sign a class striker, and Rashford complains that he wants to be first choice (like Welbeck did), I think we'd probably do the same thing as Chelsea did with Lukaku.
4. Mata - well based on his United's form, not so sure Mou made a mistake here. Plus Mata was pushed aside for Oscar IIRC. That's definitely a move for long-term.

Overall, I do agree that Mourinho definitely favours the final product over developing youth. I still maintain though that for every team being used as a stick to beat him with, he didn't have the option of developing youth. His target was always league title and the champions league. I think his first season here will be the standard top 4 target, which will allow us to see whether he is going to give youth a chance.

On the players you listed there:
1. Azpilicueta could and should have started as well as Filipe. Ivanović should have been rotated but Mourinho most likely found Filipe to be too adventurous to play as one of his full backs.
2. He never got a chance to fit for it. If he played well he was dropped anyway, Mourinho cared too much about training and not enough about performances - his scout has said the same. Look at what a good player they've missed out on now, stupid by Mourinho.
3. Lukaku or Demba Ba? Enough said. Mourinho prefers mediocre experienced players to talented young ones. You're talking there as if Lukaku was shifted for a top striker but Diego Costa wasn't there when Lukaku was loaned out in Mourinho's first season.
4. Agree he's not as big a miss as the others. I still stand by what I said at the time though - Mata was a much better player than Oscar, Mata and Oscar could have started alongside each other as they did under Rafa and Di Matteo, and if they'd kept Mata they'd have won the league.

 

[VP89]

Aye, if he does come here, first season target is top 4 IMO. I don't think it is a realistic target to win the title in the first season.

Our target should be to be in the title race at the very least. He'l be backed with a lot of money and we're only a couple points behind Arsenal/City. Spurs is the only team who look miles ahead of us, but that can shorten considerably with Mourinho and a budget.

 

[JohnnyKills]

There is also the fact that both Chelsea and Madrid have zero appetite to bring through young players. Abramovich values trophies and success above all and Madrid are an utter circus of a club to put it mildly. That said, he played Varane when most Madrid fans couldn't see it. He saw potential of Zouma. He put faith in Santon at Inter.

Utd are different. Yes we want success but the fans do give younger players slack because they love seeing one of their own come through. He would have no problem playing players he thinks are good enough. This idea that Utd will all of sudden not produce young players because of a manager is utter tripe.

All this squabbling about Mourinho's record with young players is slightly irrelevant, isn't it?

Thanks to LvG, pretty much all our promising kids, bar perhaps Pereira and Tuanzebe, are already in the first team. The hardest part is already done. Mourinho won't need to bring any players through for a good while if he comes.

So what's people's fear? That Mourinho will sell players like Rashford, Martial and TFM, simply because they're young? That would be absolute madness and I can't see him doing that.

 

[Walrus]

All this squabbling about Mourinho's record with young players is slightly irrelevant, isn't it?

Thanks to LvG, pretty much all our promising kids, bar perhaps Pereira and Tuanzebe, are already in the first team. The hardest part is already done. Mourinho won't need to bring any players through for a good while if he comes.

So what's people's fear? That Mourinho will sell players like Rashford, Martial and TFM, simply because they're young? That would be absolute madness and I can't see him doing that.

The assumption that just because they have played a few games this season, that they will continue to play under any other manager is a bit misguided. And I say that as a Mourinho fan.

 

[Damien]

A few games of Chelsea's last season. Likes of Mikel, Schürrle, Drogba, Ramires and Remy prefered for those games.

http://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2495315
6:0 home win v NK Maribor (Chelsea goals: 13', 23', 31', 54', 77', 90')
Team: Cech; Ivanovic, Zouma, Terry, Luis; Matic, Fabregas; Willian, Oscar, Hazard; Remy
Subs: Drogba (16'), Ake (60'), Solanke (73')

http://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2486837
3:0 away loss to West Brom on MD37 (at that point Chelsea had won the league and West Brom were safe - all 3 goals were scored before 60')
Team: Courtois; Ivanovic, Terry, Cahill, Luis; Matic, Loftus-Cheek; Remy, Fabregas (sent off: 29'), Hazard; Costa
Subs: Cuadrado (64'), Ake (73'), Brown (79')

http://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2528144
4:2 home loss v Bradford City
Team: Cech; Christensen, Zouma, Cahill, Azpilicueta; Ramires, Mikel; Remy, Oscar, Salah; Drogba
Subs: Willian (70'), Fabregas (70'), Hazard (76')
Score was 2:1 to Chelsea when first two subs were made, and 2:2 when Hazard sub was made

http://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2490238
2:1 home win v Bolton Wanderers (Bolton were 21st in the Championship at this time)
Team: Cech; Azpilicueta, Zouma, Cahill, Luis; Ake, Mikel; Salah, Oscar, Schürrle; Remy
Subs: Drogba (72'), Hazard (80'), Matic (90+1')

http://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2508618
3:1 away win v Derby County (Derby were 3rd in the Championship at this time)
Team: Cech; Azpilicueta, Zouma, Terry, Luis; Matic, Mikel; Schürrle, Fabregas, Hazard; Drogba
Subs: Ivanovic (45'), Remy (63'), Ramires (84')
No youth subs were named on the bench for this game..

 

[Damien]

All this squabbling about Mourinho's record with young players is slightly irrelevant, isn't it?

Thanks to LvG, pretty much all our promising kids, bar perhaps Pereira and Tuanzebe, are already in the first team. The hardest part is already done. Mourinho won't need to bring any players through for a good while if he comes.

So what's people's fear? That Mourinho will sell players like Rashford, Martial and TFM, simply because they're young? That would be absolute madness and I can't see him doing that.

Just because youth have played this season doesn't mean they will next season: see likes of Wilson and Adnan.

Martial will be fine. The 'fear' from some is that the squad will be padded out with players (and not necessarily very good players - see my previous post) which'd obstruct the game time likes of Rashford and TFM might get.

 

[Klopper76]

Assuming Mourinho becomes your manager, are we going to then assume that it's the end of Mata at United? They didn't finish on the best of terms when Mata signed for United and I'm sure he left because Mourinho preferred other players.

 

[JPRouve]

The assumption that just because they have played a few games this season, that they will continue to play under any other manager is a bit misguided. And I say that as a Mourinho fan.

I always knew you were evil but your point is correct LVG plays them but there is no guarantee that he or any other manager would do the same in different circumstances.

 

[JohnnyKills]

It cost us to be fair. The 2010 and 2012 narrow title losses could have been easy wins if we just bought a decent bloody midfielder!

Van Persie felt like the first statement signing in years when he arrived and look how many points we won the league by.

We have spent huge since Fergie left but not many players have come along to be brilliant. Mou's record is very good though in the market if you exclude the Essien's (Madrid), Falcao's and Shevcenko's and other flops that he seems to get hold of always in his 3rd Summer window.

Wasn't Shevchenko signed By Abramovich?

 

[Walrus]

I always knew you were evil but your point is correct LVG plays them but there is no guarantee that he or any other manager would do the same in different circumstances.

At the moment, given the circumstances, Jose is pretty much the only one I would trust to go toe-to-toe with Pep and have a good chance of coming out on top. Its just business

 

[Attila]

Assuming Mourinho becomes your manager, are we going to then assume that it's the end of Mata at United? They didn't finish on the best of terms when Mata signed for United and I'm sure he left because Mourinho preferred other players.

Think its pretty certain he will be sold

He won't be missed either

 

[SirAF]

Wasn't Shevchenko signed By Abramovich?

Yup, well known that Mourinho didn't fancy him.

 

[Klopper76]

Think its pretty certain he will be sold

He won't be missed either

I think he's still a very good player. It doesn't help when he's played on the right despite being much better through the middle. Any other players you think Mourinho would show the door to?

 

[Mainoldo]

They won the league and had their medium to long term future destroyed. Filipe Luís gone, De Bruyne gone, Lukaku gone, Mata gone. Not one youth prospect any closer to being a first team regular. No European football next year.

That's one hell of a price to pay for one league title. No top team around operates with the thinking that a destructive attitude like that is acceptable at the highest level. Which is why Mourinho never lasts at top clubs and won't last long at Man Utd.

Whats the age difference between Eden Harard, Oscar and De Bruyne? Is Mata alot younger than Willian? What exactly did he ruin? He tried to bring in winger.. 2 never worked out for the simple reason they weren't up to standard. Cuadrado and Shalah are not United quility why should they be Chelsea quality? Filipe Luis was second choice and i take it was sold because he didn't want to be second choice nothing to do with not being good enough.

I'm not going on a rant to try and defend the guy but some of the criticism are just unfair. He wanted a CB, LB and a winger in the summer. If the board had delivered him the correct signings like Big Deal Ed would probably have (lets be honest if Mourinho sanctioned £50m for Stones, Woodward would pay it) they would have had the strongest squad in the league. They invested poorly and it showed. I don't get how getting rid of players the season before he even won the title. Justifies it being a price to pay?

 

[BennyBlanco]

Assuming Mourinho becomes your manager, are we going to then assume that it's the end of Mata at United? They didn't finish on the best of terms when Mata signed for United and I'm sure he left because Mourinho preferred other players.

Mata is 100% gone if Mourinho comes in. Quite clearly.
Man Utd fans can see why Mourinho didn't fancy him now and echo the same flaws to his game Mourinho reportedly had issue with.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Not enough.

Mourinho would have had a much better chance this year if he had kept De Bruyne, Lulaku and Luis. All fantastic players. He risked the long term health of the club because he needed to win something here and now. Such a bad stratagem to have.

Luiz is atrocious.

 

[SirAF]

Luiz is atrocious.

This. They made a killing when they sold him. Amazing deal.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Luiz is atrocious.

Filipe Luís, not David Luiz.

 

[duffer]

Luiz is atrocious.

He said Luis (left back we sold to Atletico), not Luiz (sideshow bob).

 

[Robbie Boy]

Filipe Luís, not David Luiz.

Oh

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

Luiz is atrocious.

I think Twigg meant Filipe Luis.

 

[SteveJ]

Assuming Mourinho becomes your manager, are we going to then assume that it's the end of Mata at United? They didn't finish on the best of terms when Mata signed for United and I'm sure he left because Mourinho preferred other players.

Rightly or wrongly, I've always believed that Juan's fondness for Rafa Benitez was at the heart of Mourinho's problem with Mata.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Whats the age difference between Eden Harard, Oscar and De Bruyne? Is Mata alot younger than Willian? What exactly did he ruin? He tried to bring in winger.. 2 never worked out for the simple reason they weren't up to standard. Cuadrado and Shalah are not United quility why should they be Chelsea quality? Filipe Luis was second choice and i take it was sold because he didn't want to be second choice nothing to do with not being good enough.

I'm not going on a rant to try and defend the guy but some of the criticism are just unfair. He wanted a CB, LB and a winger in the summer. If the board had delivered him the correct signings like Big Deal Ed would probably have (lets be honest if Mourinho sanctioned £50m for Stones, Woodward would pay it) they would have had the strongest squad in the league. They invested poorly and it showed. I don't get how getting rid of players the season before he even won the title. Justifies it being a price to pay?

He cost them 2 players who were good enough to be first team players for the next decade (De Bruyne, Lukaku) and two who were good enough for a couple more years (Filipe Luís, Mata). That's an appalling fact to have against your name.

 

[Attila]

I think he's still a very good player. It doesn't help when he's played on the right despite being much better through the middle. Any other players you think Mourinho would show the door to?

I think he's been poor in the middle as well. He drifts around a lot on the right so I don't think it's a good excuse for some of his bad performances

Mourinho doesn't seem to have a lot of patience for injury prone players so Jones might go as well. Will also be interesting to see how he deals with Depay's defensive mistakes and laziness at times (with not a lot of offensive output so far either to make up for it)

 

[BennyBlanco]

He said Luis (left back we sold to Atletico), not Luiz (sideshow bob).

Did Luís actually ever play well for you lot though? seemed pretty lost at times the few times I saw him play for Chelsea.

 

[duffer]

Did Luís actually ever play well for you lot though? seemed pretty lost at times the few times I saw him play for Chelsea.

Not really. Azpilicueta had a fantastic season so Luis didn't actually get a long run in the side though. He scored a couple of nice goals.

I'd sooner have him than Baba.

 

[Mainoldo]

He cost them 2 players who were good enough to be first team players for the next decade (De Bruyne, Lukaku) and two who were good enough for a couple more years (Filipe Luís, Mata). That's an appalling fact to have against your name.

Juan Mata is bang average!!! Very talented player but we would all replace him in a heart beat with better quality number 10's. Kevin De Bruyne didn't want to stay and the only example i can give for Lukaku would have been the equivalent of sending Danny Welbeck on loan and then selling him the seaon after because we brought RVP. Win some - lose some, at the end of the day all decisions were justified and didn't harm the club, as they won the flipping league.

 

[Mainoldo]

Oh

they still got their money back though, if it makes you feel better.

 

[Traub]

On the players you listed there:
1. Azpilicueta could and should have started as well as Filipe. Ivanović should have been rotated but Mourinho most likely found Filipe to be too adventurous to play as one of his full backs.
2. He never got a chance to fit for it. If he played well he was dropped anyway, Mourinho cared too much about training and not enough about performances - his scout has said the same. Look at what a good player they've missed out on now, stupid by Mourinho.
3. Lukaku or Demba Ba? Enough said. Mourinho prefers mediocre experienced players to talented young ones. You're talking there as if Lukaku was shifted for a top striker but Diego Costa wasn't there when Lukaku was loaned out in Mourinho's first season.
4. Agree he's not as big a miss as the others. I still stand by what I said at the time though - Mata was a much better player than Oscar, Mata and Oscar could have started alongside each other as they did under Rafa and Di Matteo, and if they'd kept Mata they'd have won the league.

1. Ivanovic had a decent season when they won the league IMO. Difficult to argue rotation in that case. Also, Ivanovic does get forward quite a bit I think. Having said that, Ivanovic definitely isn't top class anymore, but I still think it was the right call at the time.
2. Agreed in hindsight it was a stupid decision. But how can you keep a squad happy when one of the youngsters who hasn't proved much yet (actually this applies to a senior player as well IMO) can demand to be in the team whilst not training properly?
3. Rashford or RVP? Start of the season, I would've said RVP. Granted it's not a perfect comparison, but if you read through old posts on this forum (and even current ones), everyone was complaining how we didn't have enough experienced strikers. Also, was Lukaku willing to be a sub or did he want to be the main man?

Our target should be to be in the title race at the very least. He'l be backed with a lot of money and we're only a couple points behind Arsenal/City. Spurs is the only team who look miles ahead of us, but that can shorten considerably with Mourinho and a budget.

If we not in the title race but comfortably top 4, should we get rid of Mourinho after one season?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

1. Ivanovic had a decent season when they won the league IMO. Difficult to argue rotation in that case. Also, Ivanovic does get forward quite a bit I think. Having said that, Ivanovic definitely isn't top class anymore, but I still think it was the right call at the time.
2. Agreed in hindsight it was a stupid decision. But how can you keep a squad happy when one of the youngsters who hasn't proved much yet (actually this applies to a senior player as well IMO) can demand to be in the team whilst not training properly?
3. Rashford or RVP? Start of the season, I would've said RVP. Granted it's not a perfect comparison, but if you read through old posts on this forum (and even current ones), everyone was complaining how we didn't have enough experienced strikers. Also, was Lukaku willing to be a sub or did he want to be the main man?


If we not in the title race but comfortably top 4, should we get rid of Mourinho after one season?

Rashford or RVP?

If you're seriously suggesting Lukaku was only at Rashford's level back then and Demba Ba was at RVP's level then I'm done here.

What the actual feck? That's one or the worst comparisons I've ever heard.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Juan Mata is bang average!!! Very talented player but we would all replace him in a heart beat with better quality number 10's. Kevin De Bruyne didn't want to stay and the only example i can give for Lukaku would have been the equivalent of sending Danny Welbeck on loan and then selling him the seaon after because we brought RVP. Win some - lose some, at the end of the day all decisions were justified and didn't harm the club, as they won the flipping league.

Chelsea didn't bring in a striker to replace Lukaku though. They had Demba fecking Ba and Loïc Remy up front. It's not a comparison.

Edit: not sure about Rémy actually. Might have been Eto'o.

 

[Klopper76]

Rightly or wrongly, I've always believed that Juan's fondness for Rafa Benitez was at the heart of Mourinho's problem with Mata.

I didn't even realise Mata was particularly fond of Benitez. To be honest it's rare that you hear a player come out and say that about him.

I think he's been poor in the middle as well. He drifts around a lot on the right so I don't think it's a good excuse for some of his bad performances

Mourinho doesn't seem to have a lot of patience for injury prone players so Jones might go as well. Will also be interesting to see how he deals with Depay's defensive mistakes and laziness at times (with not a lot of offensive output so far either to make up for it)

When you look at how good Mata was at Chelsea, it's hard to comprehend how far he's fallen at United. He's a bit unfortunate to have played under Moyes and Van Gaal during more uncertain times at United, but he hasn't always done himself any favours with some of his performances.

Yeah I was thinking that Jones would be an obvious one. Do you think Rooney will stay?

 

[itso 7]

The only reason those two have come through this season is because LVG left us with a tiny squad and we were torn apart with injuries. Quite how he has the audacity to claim credit for them is beyond me.

Mourinho may give youth a chance he may not. Our priority at the minute though has to be halt this downward spiral we are on and get back to the top, before we lose more ground to those around us.

This... We have failed, in the last three years, to achieve even what Arsenal did in the mid 2000s upto recently - to stabilize in the top four. Our post-Fergie decline has been dramatic despite spending a fortune. Basically we are not in a position to put youth development ahead of results when we've been overtaken by the likes of Spurs. Right now we need a guy that can halt this slide and make us competitive whilst we plot our long term playbook. I'm not saying abandon the youth program but focus more on the goose that lays the golden egg - the first team.

 

[Attila]

I didn't even realise Mata was particularly fond of Benitez. To be honest it's rare that you hear a player come out and say that about him.

When you look at how good Mata was at Chelsea, it's hard to comprehend how far he's fallen at United. He's a bit unfortunate to have played under Moyes and Van Gaal during more uncertain times at United, but he hasn't always done himself any favours with some of his performances.

Yeah I was thinking that Jones would be an obvious one. Do you think Rooney will stay?

I don't think Mourinho could come in and sell the captain straight away. Plus no one would take him for his 300k wages. I hope he at least has the balls to drop Rooney when he's in his 3-4 month sticky patch next season instead of doing a 'my captain shall always play'. I think Rooney could prove useful under Mourinho though...maybe

 

[Traub]

Rashford or RVP?

If you're seriously suggesting Lukaku was only at Rashford's level back then and Demba Ba was at RVP's level then I'm done here.

What the actual feck? That's one or the worst comparisons I've ever heard.

Firstly, RVP was fecking atrocious after the Moyes and LVG's first season. Ba had done well up to that point. So, at that point in time, those two are a fair comparison IMO. Secondly, the point of using Rashford is I'm trying to show that a) you need experienced strikers in your squad, and b) would Lukaku have been happy to have been a squad player? Honestly, Lukaku wanted to be the main man in a title challenging side after a good season on loan at a shit team. I don't put that blame on Mourinho - what do you do when you want to challenge for the title and a 20 year old pops up expecting to be first choice? I agree he was probably good enough to be the second choice striker at that point, but I don't think he was willing to be a squad player. I personally think he has a pretty shit attitude as well.

What about the rest though? Also, what about dropping Cech for Courtois? Yes, Courtois was one of the top keepers in the world, but it was still a huge call for Mourinho seeing how so many love to claim he would be willing to lose world class young players for his experienced bang average players.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Firstly, RVP was fecking atrocious after the Moyes and LVG's first season. Ba had done well up to that point. So, at that point in time, those two are a fair comparison IMO. Secondly, the point of using Rashford is I'm trying to show that a) you need experienced strikers in your squad, and b) would Lukaku have been happy to have been a squad player? Honestly, Lukaku wanted to be the main man in a title challenging side after a good season on loan at a shit team. I don't put that blame on Mourinho - what do you do when you want to challenge for the title and a 20 year old pops up expecting to be first choice? I agree he was probably good enough to be the second choice striker at that point, but I don't think he was willing to be a squad player. I personally think he has a pretty shit attitude as well.

What about the rest though? Also, what about dropping Cech for Courtois? Yes, Courtois was one of the top keepers in the world, but it was still a huge call for Mourinho seeing how so many love to claim he would be willing to lose world class young players for his experienced bang average players.

What are you on about? Lukaku was the best striker at the top in the summer Mourinho took over. There's no debate about whether he should have ben first choice never mind second choice. It was a moronic decision to loan him out and you don't need hindsight to know that.

 

[Sly]

btw read somewhere that Carvaliho may still be a target for us.

have you heard anything?

Yeah some United scouts in our matches and some rumours but nothing really strong.