Bastian Schweinsteiger | Exit Speculation

[Bastian]

A cookie and a medal to the first original post to undermine my comments because of the user name.

That being said, to attack his character or decide Jose's right about Basti because he's not willing to move is beyond daft. He obviously believes in himself, otherwise he would not have had the career he's had, which is far superior to everyone in our team bar Zlatan and Rooney (I'd say in the same region). This is his final challenge, to dig in and change Jose's mind. Maybe Jose will enjoy the clarity of mind and ego to appreciate that if Basti works well in training. I certainly hope so.

 

[Blackwidow]

He's whack. From 2014-2015 (Bayern) he was nothing special in his 20+ league games. In fact when comparing defensive and offensive duties, even Ander Herrera in his 1st season at United was superior. Look at things like chances created, tackles won, interceptions, goals, pass completion, Key Passes etc and Bastian falls short. People who think he is good are living in the past. its nostalgia. Pep is no fool. To call him our 2nd best midfielder is a crime against humanity. He's washed up kid!

A central midfielder - that in 14/15 when he was match fit but not top fit - has an assist or a goal every 155 minutes (better data than Rooney had last season who was one of the offensive 4) cannot be that bad...

No Pep is really no fool - he played him whenever possible in 14/15...

Pep never told that Schweinsteiger was not match fit - he only told that he has not had the top fit Schweinsteiger - a match fit Schweinsteiger is class - a top fit Schweinsteiger is extraordinary.

 

[Stacks]

I did just that and they are actually pretty even.

Comparison 2014/2015

Schweinsteiger created more chances, had more assists, more key passes and played more forward passes (beeing almost equal in pass completion) than Herrera while playing six games less.
Part of that surely coincides with Bayern being as dominant as they are and United having an underwhelming season finishing fourth.
Herrera had more defensive errors, won more tackles, had more clearances etc. because Bayern usually don't get pressured all that much in the league, while United had to do a lot more defending.
Stats of players can be misleading because they don't factor in the teams they play for. I'd say Herrera having better stats in defense and Schweinsteiger having better stats in offense during the 2014/15 campaign comes down to their respective team's style of play and won't tell us much about the difference in quality, which should be marginal.

Still Schweinsteiger's injury problems are a concern. During 2014/15 he missed the first 11 league games du to injury and it took him quite some time to get back into shape. That considered his stats are actually quite good for a central midfielder without a preseason. Herrera had to adapt to the league which is something quite a few players struggle to do successfully, so his stats are quite good as well. If both players are fit it's more about preferences. Ander gives you more movement and agressiveness while Schweinsteiger (if fit) has better vision, a better shot and more aerial presence. Still, if partnered with Pogba I'd probably prefer a fit Schweinsteiger over Ander, and since he's bound to stay for a few months more at least, why not play him if fit? I'd be very surprised if Mourinho continues to let him train with the reserves now that forcing him out didn't work.

Schweinsteiger is getting old and his legs are going. Ander is prime age and has more left in the tank.

EDIT: Bastian does not have a better shot. Ander had double the amount of shots from range. Thats the difference in accuracy. Also Ander made nearly double the amount of tackles and interceptions which is what you need as that makes a more complete CM just like Pogba.

 

[JustFootballFan]

I think the fact that Sweinsteiger is willing to sit in the stands and literally play no part in any of our games (until potentially being picked for the squad of 23 when the window re-opens in January) instead of moving on, says a lot about his character. Certainly makes Mourinho's choice to drop him appear to be justified.

Yeah we see this play out in the real world every day. Person gets signed to great three year contract, say a million dollars. Employer says: Well I changed my mind. I don´t need you anymore. Why don´t we terminate your contract and you can go work elsewhere for 20k a year instead. Person says: YES Thank You. I really didn´t want the two year paid vacation for my full million dollars anyway. I have my pride.

 

[SV_Planegg]

Schweinsteiger is getting old and his legs are going. Ander is prime age and has more left in the tank

That's what I wrote, is it not?

"Ander gives you more movement and agressiveness..." which translates into: Ander has more speed and stamina and is willing to use it.
Still for me it's a matter of partnership and form. If Ander got a bad spell or gets injured there's no reason to freeze Schweinsteiger out unless some other player can offer us the same qualities Schweinsteiger can. As long as he's fit to play I'd use him. If he struggles with fitness he can rot in the stands for all I care.

 

[Seveneric]

Honestly since he's here now till January and collecting wages, what's the point of not using him? I thought he should have gone, but he's still here.

Bring him on in some CC games, closing stages of a secured match etc

 

[JustAFan]

Honestly since he's here now till January and collecting wages, what's the point of not using him? I thought he should have gone, but he's still here.

Bring him on in some CC games, closing stages of a secured match etc

Nah better to give players who have a future here that game time.

 

[starman]

I reckon him told he can leave is parlty the club does not want to be spending 250k on a player that is just a squad player. I reckon Mou doesn't mind him being there if he was on Scholes/Giggs (around 60k) wages at the end of their career, which is what he really should on but it was a colossus cock up by the club

 

[2 man midfield]

Shame he didn't get at least an FA cup medal from his time here. Hard to see him picking up one from anything we might win this season.

 

[Carlsen19]

I reckon him told he can leave is parlty the club does not want to be spending 250k on a player that is just a squad player. I reckon Mou doesn't mind him being there if he was on Scholes/Giggs (around 60k) wages at the end of their career, which is what he really should on but it was a colossus cock up by the club

Maybe so, but you can't just freeze him out and effectively punish him for agreeing to the wages offered by the club.

 

[CM]

I don't know the ins and outs of player contracts so could be wrong, but doesn't a proportion of their pay come from appearance fees? If he's not playing, it may be that he doesn't pick up as much.

Either way, I'm really not bothered whether or not he plays. A professional footballer at Premier League level should be in pristine physical condition and that clearly wasn't true of him last season.

 

[The Man Himself]

Shame he didn't get at least an FA cup medal from his time here. Hard to see him picking up one from anything we might win this season.

He will always have the pic of him & Rooney holding FA cup though. No one can take that away from him!

 

[Randall Flagg]

He is here now, for at least until January

He should be given a chance to prove himself now

It could be one of those great comeback stories

Stranger things have happened

 

[SwansonsTache]

Is that you, @SwansonsTache ?!

As a matter of fact I am having two bratwürst for dinner today , with some mustard and sauerkraut. Shit thing is that we can't get the proper fermented stuff here in Norway, only wimpy sauerkraut. Ours taste almost like the red kale sauerkraut, all sweet. I want the proper pungent stuff.

I envy you accordion playing bastards the real sauerkraut. I wonder if I should start making and fermenting it myself.

 

[SV_Planegg]

EDIT: Bastian does not have a better shot. Ander had double the amount of shots from range. Thats the difference in accuracy. Also Ander made nearly double the amount of tackles and interceptions which is what you need as that makes a more complete CM just like Pogba.

Just saw the edit.
Yeah, he had 20 shots from outside the box and scored 1 while Schweinsteiger had 10 attempts scoring 1 as well. All in all Ander had 37 shots 2014/15 and got 29% on target, while Schweinsteiger had 29 shots and got 44% on target. And that's the definition of having a better shot. Not the sheer amount of shots you managed but how well you took them.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Since when does the amount of tackles, interceptions or blocks tell you anything about the player? As I wrote earlier it might give you hints about his position and duty on the pitch or his (and his team's) style of play but it won't tell you anything about the quality of the player compared to another one. Is James Morrison a better CM than Herrera? Because in 2014/15 Morrison had more successfull tackles, clearances and iterceptions than Ander, as well as more key passes and chances created. Enlighten me.

You won't gain much by comparing two players in different teams with a different set up playing against different opponents. Schweinsteiger and Herrera may both be used as CM but they play that position in a completely different way. That's why I said it's a matter of preference. If the time comes when Mourinho needs the qualities (a fit) Schweinsteiger can offer, I bet you any amount he'll have no problems playing him, in big games even. If Mourinho doesn't need those qualities in his CM position but has other requirements, even a fit Schweinsteiger won't get any game time. Ander Herrera can't be a 1 on 1 replacement though, since his strengts and weaknesses differ from Schweinsteiger's.

 

[Stacks]

That's what I wrote, is it not?

"Ander gives you more movement and agressiveness..." which translates into: Ander has more speed and stamina and is willing to use it.
Still for me it's a matter of partnership and form. If Ander got a bad spell or gets injured there's no reason to freeze Schweinsteiger out unless some other player can offer us the same qualities Schweinsteiger can. As long as he's fit to play I'd use him. If he struggles with fitness he can rot in the stands for all I care.

Carrick looked far more adept than Bastian last season. more penetration with his passes and better defensive positioning. Pogba Ander Carrick Schneiderlin, Fellaini should all be ahead as they have shown adeptness in the Prem. I can understand why Jose may try Fosu Mensah also as he could be a beast. Bastian is 5-6th choice at best to partner Pogba

 

[Piratesoup]

I envy you accordion playing bastards the real sauerkraut. I wonder if I should start making and fermenting it myself.

Bad choice!
We are accordion playing bastards, but that also applies to the french...

Spoiler: Try the Alphorn

 

[Stacks]

Just saw the edit.
Yeah, he had 20 shots from outside the box and scored 1 while Schweinsteiger had 10 attempts scoring 1 as well. All in all Ander had 37 shots 2014/15 and got 29% on target, while Schweinsteiger had 29 shots and got 44% on target. And that's the definition of having a better shot. Not the sheer amount of shots you managed but how well you took them.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Since when does the amount of tackles, interceptions or blocks tell you anything about the player? As I wrote earlier it might give you hints about his position and duty on the pitch or his (and his team's) style of play but it won't tell you anything about the quality of the player compared to another one. Is James Morrison a better CM than Herrera? Because in 2014/15 Morrison had more successfull tackles, clearances and iterceptions than Ander, as well as more key passes and chances created. Enlighten me.

You won't gain much by comparing two players in different teams with a different set up playing against different opponents. Schweinsteiger and Herrera may both be used as CM but they play that position in a completely different way. That's why I said it's a matter of preference. If the time comes when Mourinho needs the qualities (a fit) Schweinsteiger can offer, I bet you any amount he'll have no problems playing him, in big games even. If Mourinho doesn't need those qualities in his CM position but has other requirements, even a fit Schweinsteiger won't get any game time. Ander Herrera can't be a 1 on 1 replacement though, since his strengts and weaknesses differ from Schweinsteiger's.

The more shots you have inside the box compared to outside, the more accurate your attempts will be because less power and wildness comes into play. that explains why Bastian had higher on target.

 

[SwansonsTache]

Bad choice!
We are accordion playing bastards, but that also applies to the french...

Spoiler: Try the Alphorn

Isn't that strictly stereotypical speaking more of an Heidi and the rest in the Austrian alps kind of thing? While you are more the accordion in a bierstube sort of guys?

 

[SV_Planegg]

The more shots you have inside the box compared to outside, the more accurate your attempts will be because less power and wildness comes into play. that explains why Bastian had higher on target.

It's 19 shots inside the box for Schweinsteiger and 17 for Ander. Hardly that great a difference to warp shot accuracy by 15%.

 

[JustAFan]

Unless we get hit by a massive bout of injuries, don't see much really changing for Bastian. Would Jose really say, "I don't want you or need you, find a new place to play" and suddenly change that to "Oh you are still here, might as well put you into the rotation to take up playing time of players I actually want here."

Seems a strange change of direction to make honestly.

 

[Piratesoup]

Isn't that strictly stereotypical speaking more of an Heidi and the rest in the Austrian alps kind of thing? While you are more the accordion in a bierstube sort of guys?

I'm half half, so it's all one big stereotype to me, but I think the go to instrument would actually be the Tuba (or just the full humpta outfit)

 

[SV_Planegg]

Unless we get hit by a massive bout of injuries, don't see much really changing for Bastian. Would Jose really say, "I don't want you or need you, find a new place to play" and suddenly change that to "Oh you are still here, might as well put you into the rotation to take up playing time of players I actually want here."

Seems a strange change of direction to make honestly.

That's exactly what's been bothering me. If Mourinho told Schweinsteiger straight out "I don't want you in my team" I believe Schweinsteiger would have left already. Why would he want to stay if the new manager made it completely clear that there's absolutely no chance for him to see game time? For some reason Schweinsteiger still sees a chance to break back into the squad. He doesn't need the money so that shouldn't be a reason to stay with no chance to be picked at all.

After what happened so far i can only speculate, but I think it's actually not Mourinho trying to force Schweinsteiger to move, but the board/Woodward since they want his wages off the list. Since it backfired I'm curious how this will go on. Even Mourinho indirectly hinted into that direction when he said "I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying its very difficult...", concerning Bastian's chances at game time. If he really didn't want Schweinsteiger at all, I believe he would have phrased that differently.

 

[starman]

Maybe so, but you can't just freeze him out and effectively punish him for agreeing to the wages offered by the club.

Hows he being punished? he still get paid. He is on Marquee wages. That sort of money should only be paid to indispensable players. The club/mou are in full rights to tell him to move on.

 

[Jaybomb]

Everyone else got a chance to prove their worth. So he should be given the same.

 

[Isotope]

Yeah we see this play out in the real world every day. Person gets signed to great three year contract, say a million dollars. Employer says: Well I changed my mind. I don´t need you anymore. Why don´t we terminate your contract and you can go work elsewhere for 20k a year instead. Person says: YES Thank You. I really didn´t want the two year paid vacation for my full million dollars anyway. I have my pride.

If he believes in himself, and value his future and prestige, he'd move on. Maybe not at that exaggerating drop in wages (from a million to 20k, though) as you're suggesting. That's almost 100% drop. And it's not vacation also. He still need to train and live in Manchester.

 

[JustAFan]

That's exactly what's been bothering me. If Mourinho told Schweinsteiger straight out "I don't want you in my team" I believe Schweinsteiger would have left already. Why would he want to stay if the new manager made it completely clear that there's absolutely no chance for him to see game time? For some reason Schweinsteiger still sees a chance to break back into the squad. He doesn't need the money so that shouldn't be a reason to stay with no chance to be picked at all.

After what happened so far i can only speculate, but I think it's actually not Mourinho trying to force Schweinsteiger to move, but the board/Woodward since they want his wages off the list. Since it backfired I'm curious how this will go on. Even Mourinho indirectly hinted into that direction when he said "I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying its very difficult...", concerning Bastian's chances at game time. If he really didn't want Schweinsteiger at all, I believe he would have phrased that differently.

Christ that would be hanging by a thread though. Basically you have almost zero chance......great I'll stay!

 

[Golden Nugget]

No he didn't. When Schweinsteiger actually played *injury plagued* he was comfortably our best deep laying midfielder. He was composed on the ball in a way nobody has been for us since Scholes. He was calm, and oozed class. LVG may have played him idiotically, but that can hardly be layed at the feet of the player. The player carries out the managers game plan.

In fact, the time Schweinsteiger played before Christmas, he was IMO comfortably our best midfielder full stop. Now, does that mean he is going to fit into this team if Mourinho thinks his legs are gone? No. However, despite his injury plagued season, he was still pretty good. If you watch our midfield performances last year, it was night and day between when he was playing and when he wasn't. He'd come on, instant stability, back four were protected. He went off, everything went to shit and we started conceding goals like crazy on the break.

I think that he'd be one of our two best partners for Pogba atm. He'd be a fantastic outlet for Pogba and his skill and composure on the ball and always being in position to receive that outlet pass is vital for when our more energetic midfielders find themselves in a blind alley. Schneiderlin would probably be the best partner to provide pure defensive cover if Pogba is going full rambo.

No he wasn't. People tend to overrate new signings (me included) - while I like Schweinsteiger and he did bring calmness to the game - that's about all he brought - playing backwards and sideway passes. It was a shadow of what we saw of him at the world cup or at Bayern and I just can't agree that he was better than Carrick.

claiming it was night and day when he was playing and he wasn't - I might not have a memeory as well as yours but all I can remember that it was horrible when Carrick and Schweinsteiger played together (in terms of attractiveness anyway)

 

[K2K]

Exactly, so no real harm in him coming off the bench in our least important games. Mourinho doesn't want him, but he is here for at most a year, so might as well use him to our advantage (his experience could be useful in some of these games).

I wouldn't be surprised if Jose has him on the bench in those games.

We are not a charity case.

We are bloody Manchester United. One of the biggest clubs in the world with ambitions to be the best.

For years we have been hamstrung by over sentimentality. Jose has come out multiple times basically saying that Bastian's time here is done. He is not going to send out a player to the reserves then have that player decide decide that he doesn't want to actually go. It questions his authority.

 

[K2K]

That's exactly what's been bothering me. If Mourinho told Schweinsteiger straight out "I don't want you in my team" I believe Schweinsteiger would have left already. Why would he want to stay if the new manager made it completely clear that there's absolutely no chance for him to see game time? For some reason Schweinsteiger still sees a chance to break back into the squad. He doesn't need the money so that shouldn't be a reason to stay with no chance to be picked at all.

After what happened so far i can only speculate, but I think it's actually not Mourinho trying to force Schweinsteiger to move, but the board/Woodward since they want his wages off the list. Since it backfired I'm curious how this will go on. Even Mourinho indirectly hinted into that direction when he said "I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying its very difficult...", concerning Bastian's chances at game time. If he really didn't want Schweinsteiger at all, I believe he would have phrased that differently.

This is the same Jose that said that players not in his plans will not play a single minute.

Then came out basically goading Bayern into buying him if they wanted him to play so badly.

What must the man say to get the message across? ''Bastian you're shite,Feck off''

Here is a more plausible theory. Bastian has already said he won't play for another European club. The American window is closed so he is simply waiting for it to open.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

We are not a charity case.

We are bloody Manchester United. One of the biggest clubs in the world with ambitions to be the best.

For years we have been hamstrung by over sentimentality. Jose has come out multiple times basically saying that Bastian's time here is done. He is not going to send out a player to the reserves then have that player decide decide that he doesn't want to actually go. It questions his authority.

No we are not... which is why we pay Bastian a salary and he is employed by us.

He's not in Jose's plans, but he is a body... and he's not exactly stopping the club's ambitions by being on the bench against Northampton Town should Jose decide he can be there to make up numbers.

 

[ThanksBoss26]

We'll know soon enough if he's made the Europa League squad. I think the deadline is tonight.

 

[K2K]

No we are not... which is why we pay Bastian a salary and he is employed by us.

He's not in Jose's plans, but he is a body... and he's not exactly stopping the club's ambitions by being on the bench against Northampton Town should Jose decide he can be there to make up numbers.

We have a youth academy for that very reason.

If we are desperate for bodies. For such a kid,that experience is invaluable.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

We have a youth academy for that very reason.

If we are desperate for bodies. For such a kid,that experience is invaluable.

Agree to disagree... but a spot on the bench in a league cup game isn't exactly going to make or break someone's career at United. Overall, it isn't really that valuable at all.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

I'd much rather see us give a spot on the bench to a kid than to a player in Schweinsteiger who has no future here.

I remember how annoying it was when Van Gaal kept playing Falcao even though he was terrible and clearly going to leave.

 

[K2K]

Agree to disagree... but a spot on the bench in a league cup game isn't exactly going to make or break someone's career at United. Overall, it isn't really that valuable at all.

It may be their chance in though.

Jose hardly rotates and so chances are limited as it is.

 

[Ixion]

This is probably Carrick's last season so we might as well give up his spot on the bench to a kid with a future here.

 

[horsechoker]

I don't see why we can't use him in the League Cup or the Europa League, I don't know the extent of Fellaini's injury but if he's out for a while Bastian is a good enough alternative to come off the bench or start in the less important games. Then again, I wouldn't mind Bastian not being played if it means Fosu-Mensah gets a chance to play.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

He's in the 25 man squad apparently so that's good news

 

[Smores]

If he proves in training that he's good enough then he'll get a place. Surely its that simple?

We shouldn't be giving him a spot out of pity. He's competing with our seniors not the youth.