well you're correct I am implying that these documents don't prove anything, because they don't
Barcelona: Charged with corruption .... again!
- Thread starter The Boy
- Start date
well you're correct I am implying that these documents don't prove anything, because they don't
That’s not quite right. You could just admit that something shady as feck has gone on at your club. Right now there’s 2 groups involved in this. The amateur detectives trying to unravel the web and the accused trying to blur the truth. While your welcome to some healthy skepticism regarding rogue reports, blatantly ignoring the crimson red flags flying high at the camp Nou is going to get you no respect.
No one is going to wait for Laporta to open his lying whore mouth about smear campaigns and agendas. People are rightly angry and want the truth.
The reason people believed there were no documents is because Barcelona were asked to provide documents by the tax agency and they failed to do so. That is what the prosecutor's brief said.
Do you have an explanation for why the first evidence of these reports comes not from Barcelona FC, but from a police search of the house of a guy who was involved in the payments under investigation?
Everyone that can read Spanish knows these documents are a joke. Any 13 year old could do something similar. For frecks sake, they are not even correctly written. With this I mean, that there is nowhere in hell someone would pay millions of euros only for that.
Also, I think those documents were made by Negreira's son, who we already know did in fact produce some reports.
I think it is Negreira who couldn't show any report as explanation for his payments.
As there were separate payments both to Negreira and his son
I have tried to follow this case and unfortunately it's not really that straightforward. It is not really as simple as "Barcelona claim they paid for referee reports from a guy who works with refs." The suspicious invoices that we know of are for "assistance with technical videos." Some of those have leaked. There are multiple 'companies' involved, various ways in which money was paid, etc.
The mistake is looking only at the most salacious details. "They asked this guy why he had this money and he said 'to keep referees neutral'" or whatever.
The mistake is looking only at the most salacious details. "They asked this guy why he had this money and he said 'to keep referees neutral'" or whatever.
It would be very difficult for anyone to give Barça the benefit of the doubt. Not exactly known for following the rule book.
It is extremely funny that various Spanish websites started re-reporting yesterday on an old story from 2021 where Clattenburg admits the 2016 CL final goal by Ramos was offside.
I don't always pay the Vice President of Referees millions of Euros over decades but when I do I make sure that it is exclusively for the creation of reports an intern could have produced in return for coffee and bocadillos.
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Like really, who pays hundreds of thousands of pounds for a product worth less than a match ticket and then orders the same substandard prescription on repeat for a further 17 years? Why stop in 2018? Was being the Vice President of Ref's a prerequisite to produce this drivel? Now he's stepped down is he no longer competent to copy paste from wiki?
I mean I guess that Barca must be going for the "we're not corrupt we're just hapless wankers" defence, but this product is too shoddy to even elevate that argument above the risible.
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Like really, who pays hundreds of thousands of pounds for a product worth less than a match ticket and then orders the same substandard prescription on repeat for a further 17 years? Why stop in 2018? Was being the Vice President of Ref's a prerequisite to produce this drivel? Now he's stepped down is he no longer competent to copy paste from wiki?
I mean I guess that Barca must be going for the "we're not corrupt we're just hapless wankers" defence, but this product is too shoddy to even elevate that argument above the risible.
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I like this part:
"We use the word values not to look good, but because values really are a fundamental, fundamental part of our sporting excellence model. And that is why Barca is admired and recognised throughout the world. It also happens that some, motivated by envy, try to erode our reputation with campaigns carried out in bad faith."
The fecking nerve from this guy!
I hope those journalists and medias have good lawyers, otherwise it could get very expensive for them.
COPE already paid Barca a hefty fine for defamation back then and had to apologize publicly. Let's see how many have to pay/apologize now. Everyone who rode that bribery train without any evidence or even a testimony should be sued for defamation.
Maybe the entire sum will be big enough to pay Messi's wage for his last european season
COPE already paid Barca a hefty fine for defamation back then and had to apologize publicly. Let's see how many have to pay/apologize now. Everyone who rode that bribery train without any evidence or even a testimony should be sued for defamation.
Maybe the entire sum will be big enough to pay Messi's wage for his last european season
I hope those journalists and medias have good lawyers, otherwise it could get very expensive for them.
COPE already paid Barca a hefty fine for defamation back then and had to apologize publicly. Let's see how many have to pay/apologize now. Everyone who rode that bribery train without any evidence or even a testimony should be sued for defamation.
Maybe the entire sum will be big enough to pay Messi's wage for his last european season
You should hold a press conference at Casa Mila Total Landscaping to announce the lawsuits.
I hope those journalists and medias have good lawyers, otherwise it could get very expensive for them.
COPE already paid Barca a hefty fine for defamation back then and had to apologize publicly. Let's see how many have to pay/apologize now. Everyone who rode that bribery train without any evidence or even a testimony should be sued for defamation.
Maybe the entire sum will be big enough to pay Messi's wage for his last european season
I hope those journalists and medias have good lawyers, otherwise it could get very expensive for them.
COPE already paid Barca a hefty fine for defamation back then and had to apologize publicly. Let's see how many have to pay/apologize now. Everyone who rode that bribery train without any evidence or even a testimony should be sued for defamation.
Maybe the entire sum will be big enough to pay Messi's wage for his last european season
Using the De Jong tactic I see.
I know who he is. Just a pro barca account who collects and translates barca news. I could also quote Laporta's friend directly:
There are many reports coming out right now with the same content. Barca sueing all those journalists and outlets for defamation. Weeks have passed and we have still zero evidence or testimonies for influencing or even bribing referees. Journalists today don't care about the truth. They just use any drama topic that brings them klicks and traffic and they don't care who they harm along the way. It's disgusting in my opinion and I hope the judges feel the same way. As I wrote, barca knows how to win a defamation trial. COPE had to pay a 200.000€ fine and apologized publicly.
This whole topic is way out of line right now. Without any evidence, the public media crucifies barca for klicks and traffic and it is perfectly legal to take them to court for it.
If they find evidence or some refs who can back up the charge, then they can write about it. But without the one or the other, its just defamation.
So FCB is doubling down, probably advised by their legal team.
What needs to be answered though is, why did Barcelona paid to the VP of referees' company, outside the books, for more than 10 years exactly up to the moment he stopped being the VP of referees?
What needs to be answered though is, why did Barcelona paid to the VP of referees' company, outside the books, for more than 10 years exactly up to the moment he stopped being the VP of referees?
Without evidence
I really don’t understand this case at all Why would any teams pay a referee? Is that not, you know, their employers responsibility? Spanish FA or the league or whomever.
Why would any teams pay a referee? Is that not, you know, their employers responsibility? Spanish FA or the league or whomever.Clearly giving gifts to referees and paying Negreira is fine as long as those referees don't leave evidence saying that they were influenced by it
So are you denying that the payments occurred? Or that they're evidentiary?
So are you denying that the payments occurred? Or that they're evidentiary?
No one is denying the payments. Barca is denying that those payments were used to influence or bribe the referees. So far no evidence was brought forward to support the charges against the club, but on the contrary yesterday's reports claim that referee reports were found which support Barca's explanation. I expect Laporta holding a press conference next week while the players are on international break. Then we all will know more.
What about the Andújar Oliver interview? It isn't evidence or it isn't a testimony?
Ah yes of course, making large payments for no reason or benefit whatsoever. Just curious whether any other clubs were making similar payments? You know, because they're so innocuous?
Quite clearly paying the vice president of your refereeing association hundreds of thousands of euros a year through intermediaries is in and of itself a corrupt practice. Barcelona have already been caught red handed and it's comical to see them and their fanbase now scrambling around to find some post-hoc justification for a practice that clearly shouldn't be allowed and that they clearly tried to hide. Even if they get away with it legally it's still an utter travesty. You cannot have members of your supposedly impartial arbitration structure accepting payment from individual clubs for any reason and still expect it to be considered unbiased. That's the case even if the individual taking payment took on the Herculean task of writing up some 3 page reports a pissed apprentice could knock out in a couple of hours.
You don't risk the reputation of your club and the integrity of the league for a series of shit reports. The return is so much smaller than the potential reputational damage. Even if you lost your mind and in the midst of your insanity paid for one serving of this paltry crap you wouldn't do it twice, let alone 17 more times while systematically doubling the payments.
Pull the other one, it hath bells on.
You don't risk the reputation of your club and the integrity of the league for a series of shit reports. The return is so much smaller than the potential reputational damage. Even if you lost your mind and in the midst of your insanity paid for one serving of this paltry crap you wouldn't do it twice, let alone 17 more times while systematically doubling the payments.
Pull the other one, it hath bells on.
Didn't someone from Barcelona say that they made those payments in order to influence the refs because the refs were helping Real Madrid? I suppose it probably wasn't anyone currently employed by the club, but it was someone who had been, right?
I hope those journalists and medias have good lawyers, otherwise it could get very expensive for them.
COPE already paid Barca a hefty fine for defamation back then and had to apologize publicly. Let's see how many have to pay/apologize now. Everyone who rode that bribery train without any evidence or even a testimony should be sued for defamation.
Maybe the entire sum will be big enough to pay Messi's wage for his last european season
What the absolute feck
Barca'a final leaver is suing the bejaysus out of everyone and coming out smelling of roses?
How long have you been saying cnut face is going to hold a press conference to prove everything is false. Get the feck over it. cnut face is not going to prove anything, he is playing the same tactic an uninformed feminist would - shout loud enough and maybe people might stop thrusting reasonable arguments in my face.
That alone makes you guilty and should lead to significant punishment. You get that right?
These Barca fans seem to be saying that it's common practice for clubs to pay an official connected to referees €7,000,000 over what, 16 years? Just to get some reports? Does that mean every club in the division had to pay the same? Meaning this guy would have collected a cool €140,000,000 during his reign - around €168,000 a week.
Not bad for simply sending some match reports.
Not bad for simply sending some match reports.
If refs hadn't been blatantly going out of their way to help them to absurd degrees, it might be possible to find it in oneself to believe that they really hadn't been buying favorable treatment. Anyone who has kept even half an eye on La Liga throughout this period knows that refs have practically been fellating Barcelona in the pitch, though.
If we disregard that fact, it's still incredibly suspicious and indefensible to pay millions (and go to great lengths to hide that fact) to the head of the ref's association. And if we don't disregard that fact, it's impossible to believe that they did in fact pay for innocuous "reports" that weren't in any way unethical or underhanded. Simply impossible.
Whatever the case, since we know for a fact that these payments took place, that alone is bad enough that if Barcelona go unpunished, the credibility of La Liga is completely gone. What's to stop any other club from sending wads of cash to referees? Short of those refs personally admitting that they've been repaying that with favorable calls, which they would never have any reason to do, how could anyone ever prove that such an exchange occurred? It would be a free license to cheat.
This is why officials in most industries and environments that have any pretense of fairness aren't allowed to accept gifts from those they're tasked with arbitrating. You can't just send a million euros to a judge presiding over your lawsuit and say that it was just a gesture of goodwill, no harm intended. If that were allowed, everyone would do it, and how could anyone then determine if it had an influence on the outcome unless the recipient just confesses it for no reason?
Realistically, all it would take for Barcelona to get away with this, if they have in fact been buying ref favors but the lack of concrete evidence of this fact meant they're acquitted, is for the refs who have been doing it to simply... say they hadn't. And for what possible reason would a ref admit they had done this? It's not as if these guys will have been stupid enough to arrange it via e-mails that they printed out and stuck in a filing cabinet. If it took place, it'll have been through untraceable channels, like verbal agreements.
That's why you can't pay under-the-table money to the guy in charge of the fecking ref's association. Anyone who can't see this has probably never worked in any field where ethics concerns are a factor. This is the most basic principle of professional ethics. Even if they never prove that it influenced refs, the payments themselves are profoundly incriminating, and if La Liga has any pride in itself, it justifies a severe punishment. In what world should a club be allowed to do this? It'd be absolutely insane.
If there was any legitimate, above-board reason to pay millions to the head of the refs, Barcelona would not have gone to such great lengths to hide the fact that they did. It's as simple as that, and that's enough to make them deserving of a heavy punishment. I'd say that if it can't be proven that they were actually paying for favorable treatment, a large points deduction is still in order, as well as a truly huge fine. If it can be proven, however, relegation (preferably by more than a single tier) is required, and possibly revoking titles.
Ask the owner of a company what'll happen if they try to secretly bribe the tax auditors. This is the same thing.
If we disregard that fact, it's still incredibly suspicious and indefensible to pay millions (and go to great lengths to hide that fact) to the head of the ref's association. And if we don't disregard that fact, it's impossible to believe that they did in fact pay for innocuous "reports" that weren't in any way unethical or underhanded. Simply impossible.
Whatever the case, since we know for a fact that these payments took place, that alone is bad enough that if Barcelona go unpunished, the credibility of La Liga is completely gone. What's to stop any other club from sending wads of cash to referees? Short of those refs personally admitting that they've been repaying that with favorable calls, which they would never have any reason to do, how could anyone ever prove that such an exchange occurred? It would be a free license to cheat.
This is why officials in most industries and environments that have any pretense of fairness aren't allowed to accept gifts from those they're tasked with arbitrating. You can't just send a million euros to a judge presiding over your lawsuit and say that it was just a gesture of goodwill, no harm intended. If that were allowed, everyone would do it, and how could anyone then determine if it had an influence on the outcome unless the recipient just confesses it for no reason?
Realistically, all it would take for Barcelona to get away with this, if they have in fact been buying ref favors but the lack of concrete evidence of this fact meant they're acquitted, is for the refs who have been doing it to simply... say they hadn't. And for what possible reason would a ref admit they had done this? It's not as if these guys will have been stupid enough to arrange it via e-mails that they printed out and stuck in a filing cabinet. If it took place, it'll have been through untraceable channels, like verbal agreements.
That's why you can't pay under-the-table money to the guy in charge of the fecking ref's association. Anyone who can't see this has probably never worked in any field where ethics concerns are a factor. This is the most basic principle of professional ethics. Even if they never prove that it influenced refs, the payments themselves are profoundly incriminating, and if La Liga has any pride in itself, it justifies a severe punishment. In what world should a club be allowed to do this? It'd be absolutely insane.
If there was any legitimate, above-board reason to pay millions to the head of the refs, Barcelona would not have gone to such great lengths to hide the fact that they did. It's as simple as that, and that's enough to make them deserving of a heavy punishment. I'd say that if it can't be proven that they were actually paying for favorable treatment, a large points deduction is still in order, as well as a truly huge fine. If it can be proven, however, relegation (preferably by more than a single tier) is required, and possibly revoking titles.
Ask the owner of a company what'll happen if they try to secretly bribe the tax auditors. This is the same thing.
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It's a really poor argument. It's clear as day Barcelona have used alternate means to gain an advantage for refereeing decisions. Unless there's a more compelling reason behind their logic of doing this. It's one thing to see this objectively and another to prove it in court however.
Barça can‘t explain the payments away. It doesn‘t matter what they say they were for. No further proof is needed to punish them.
Barça needs to be punished harshly or the credibility of La Liga is gone.
Barça needs to be punished harshly or the credibility of La Liga is gone.
Good luck with that.
The club has more corruption than the end of World of Warcraft BFA expansion.
So unless their phones are tapped and they have some voice recordings, you are saying Barca are not guilty, even though they paid the VP guy.
So what exactly did they get in return for their payments? I know Barca are a financial mess and a disaster, i hope they are not so dumb just to throw away money at a guy in important position with out any returns.
I would not put anything past Barcelona at this stage - do I care if they did this or not, no not really. But nothing this club does - will shock me anymore
The VP's favourite charity is UNICEF? Same values?
Do Barca fans expect evidence to be presented on TV?
It's a pretty clear case of corruption. They will definitely be prosecuted, but it'll come down to if La Liga actually want one of their powerhouses to go down, dragging the entire league down with them, particularly at a time when they're not very fashionable without Messi-Ronaldo. Think they'll get away with a 15point deduction or something.
Almost certain there will be punishment, it seems. Like with City, I wonder what the impact will be on other clubs. I remember a great article a few years back about the effect on the other big Scottish clubs, especially Celtic, of Rangers being banished to the lower leagues. It was quite drastic; drop in energy, income, lots of unanticipated effects from the competition being less intense. In the same way Real would probably suffer from Barca being relegated or whatever.
Espanyol can step up, right?