Baby elephant is growing quickly in the room

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@justboy68 @Pogue Mahone
Pogue Mahone said:
I think it's unfair to say "player x cost 40m so he's a flop if he's not better than player y who cost 20m". There are loads of factors which affect price, many of which have no correlation with quality.

That said, it's equally wrong to imply there is NO correlation between price and what we should expect in terms of quality.

The fact we were willing to pay such a stupendous fee means we should expect him to be a stand-out performer. Consistently dominating games and standing out as one of the best players on the pitch, for either team. He's done this once, maybe twice already. Which isn't bad but it's not great either. And we absolutely shouldn't consider performances like Sunday's as being as good as we should expect. He can and should play a lot better. Hopefully he will, but the constant efforts from people to say we expect too much from him or that his form is the fault of the manager or other players is frustrating and a little bit worrying, because - if they're right - then we've signed an extremely limited player.
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The logic here is flawed though, Leicester won the Premier League last year. The amount of money spent is not a predictor, measure or enabler of on field performance. Otherwise we wouldn't have finished 7th, 4th and 5th the last three years.

In my opinion, you are using opposite arguments conjunctively, an oxymoron if you will (others might say forget the 'oxy' but I'm a more patient fellow). Logic would say that the statements (your statements) "its unfair to say that player x cost 40m so he's a flop if he's not better than player y who cost 20m" or "there is NO correlation between price and what we should expect in terms of quality" and "to pay such a stupendous fee means we should expect him to be a stand-out performer. Consistently dominating games" cannot be used in the same line of reasoning.

In that last quote you directly link his on field performance to the stupendous fee and subsequent dominance on the field. Dominance defined is 'power and influence over others' (a good synonym would be supremacy). So the way I interpret this is that you expect him to be better than everyone else on the field based on the "stupendous" fee. Yet you also say its unfair to assess a player in this manner. Excellent work.

The difficulty with responding to your post is that you've made arguments for both sides so I don't really know where I stand and/or whether I agree with you? Please help me out, have you made your mind up yet?


Just FYI (because I think I disagree with you...) Pogba has been entertaining to watch and although he hasn't set the world alight yet his transfer fee is irrelevant to this. It's been only a handful of games, it's premature to be making these assessments now and the lad clearly has masses of potential. Personally I can see a vast improvement since the arrival of this summers acquisitions. Calm down, let the boy play and let's see where we are at Christmas.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Maybe you shouldn't have wasted all summer arguing with the numpties. Keep telling everyone how wise you are though, it's really endearing
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I try. Might as well keep up pissing everyone off with my Pogba posts. Just seems to me the vast majority of fans thought he was going to be a rampaging beast of a midfielder who would dominate every single game. He was never ever going to be that and yet anyone who suggested otherwise during the summer was shouted down. One lives and learns. Stay away from the transfer forum.
 
With a bit more luck and better finishing by Ibra he could of had 3 goals and 3 assists minimum.

People are talking rubbish.
 
Luke Parker said:
@justboy68 @Pogue Mahone


The logic here is flawed though, Leicester won the Premier League last year. The amount of money spent is not a predictor, measure or enabler of on field performance. Otherwise we wouldn't have finished 7th, 4th and 5th the last three years.

In my opinion, you are using opposite arguments conjunctively, an oxymoron if you will (others might say forget the 'oxy' but I'm a more patient fellow). Logic would say that the statements (your statements) "its unfair to say that player x cost 40m so he's a flop if he's not better than player y who cost 20m" or "there is NO correlation between price and what we should expect in terms of quality" and "to pay such a stupendous fee means we should expect him to be a stand-out performer. Consistently dominating games" cannot be used in the same line of reasoning.

In that last quote you directly link his on field performance to the stupendous fee and subsequent dominance on the field. Dominance defined is 'power and influence over others' (a good synonym would be supremacy). So the way I interpret this is that you expect him to be better than everyone else on the field based on the "stupendous" fee. Yet you also say its unfair to assess a player in this manner. Excellent work.

The difficulty with responding to your post is that you've made arguments for both sides so I don't really know where I stand and/or whether I agree with you? Please help me out, have you made your mind up yet?


Just FYI (because I think I disagree with you...) Pogba has been entertaining to watch and although he hasn't set the world alight yet his transfer fee is irrelevant to this. It's been only a handful of games, it's premature to be making these assessments now and the lad clearly has masses of potential. Personally I can see a vast improvement since the arrival of this summers acquisitions. Calm down, let the boy play and let's see where we are at Christmas.
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I've made my mind up that he's been underwhelming so far but I definitely haven't written him off. I give the impression I'm slagging him off but only because I want (and expect) more from him. Which might explain why I seem a bit conflicted...
 
Tosicsleftpeg said:
It's October and the witch hunt is or in full force after 2 losses and an unlucky draw of the back of hammering the champions.

People need to have a good look at themselves.
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didn't stop anyone with Rooney, Fellaini, Mata etc. Simply applying similar levels of rigour.
 
Tosicsleftpeg said:
It's October and the witch hunt is or in full force after 2 losses and an unlucky draw of the back of hammering the champions.

People need to have a good look at themselves.
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Whilst I agree with the sentiment (perhaps). Saying you have beaten the champions, whilst factually correct, is a bit of a stretch...you're talking about a team currently sitting in 12th.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I've made my mind up that he's been underwhelming so far but I definitely haven't written him off. I give the impression I'm slagging him off but only because I want (and expect) more from him. Which might explain why I seem a bit conflicted...
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"If I turn out to be particularly clear, you’ve probably misunderstood what I said.”
 
I'm not worried or disappointed. I knew that Pogba was neither absolutely top class nor the finished article. What he is, is a unique player who could be phenomenal but is still rough around the edges.

At the same time I think he's been fairly good so far, it's just that his pefornances have varied a tad much. When he's been good he's been sublime whereas he's had a lot of moments/some games where he's looked off the pace and somewhat all over the place, although he's still had an impact in those too, to an extent.

Give him time and a platform, and let's hope we reach somewhere special. It's hardly like you've seen mediocrity from him thus far. Hes already had many moments of quality. It's about delivering them more regularly.
 
Brightonian said:
If he'd put those two goals in - and I feel like 8 times out of ten he'd have scored both - we'd all be ******* over the highlights video right now.
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tomaldinho1 said:
...combined with us missing a host of chances, will never bode well for a positive result.
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Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
would this dumb thread exist if he had rightly bagged a hattrick vs Stoke?
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I hear what you guys are saying: "if Pogba had done this/that".
The problem is, we did miss chances and we didn't score enough of our own.
Lets talk about things that actually happened, not stuff that could/should have happened or what Pogba almost did.

The fact (based on what has actually happened) is that Pogba has been unable to get a game by the scruff of the neck and drive it forward.
For example, in the Stoke game, that ex-LFC player ran the show. He drove his team forward. He was a powerhouse.
When we played MCFC, De Bruyne powered their team forward.
So far Pogba has not been able to put in these types of performances which other players have done against us, in recent games. I admit he came close in his first game for us, but since then his level has dropped.
 
Elephant schmelephant.

I love his type - as a player.

But he (obviously) isn't a playmaker. Nor a metronome. Nor a player you can expect to "dominate" (as people say) matches for the full 90 on a regular basis. Nor a player you can expect to regularly cover/shield in the capacity of an actual defensive midfielder.

He'll work best in a free role of sorts - seems pretty clear.

He won't win us anything on his own - and, again, that was pretty feckin' obvious to begin with. World record transfer means feck all - gets the muppets giddy and Woody no doubt likes the idea from a marketing perspective. From a football perspective it has no meaning whatsoever. He is nowhere near the most valuable player in the world on the pitch - again, as anyone with half a brain knew before we signed him.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Elephant schmelephant.

I love his type - as a player.

But he (obviously) isn't a playmaker. Nor a metronome. Nor a player you can expect to "dominate" (as people say) matches for the full 90 on a regular basis. Nor a player you can expect to regularly cover/shield in the capacity of an actual defensive midfielder.

He'll work best in a free role of sorts - seems pretty clear.

He won't win us anything on his own - and, again, that was pretty feckin' obvious to begin with. World record transfer means feck all - gets the muppets giddy and Woody no doubt likes the idea from a marketing perspective. From a football perspective it has no meaning whatsoever. He is nowhere near the most valuable player in the world on the pitch - again, as anyone with half a brain knew before we signed him.
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What you are saying is that Pogba is a luxury player. And that we cannot depend on him to win games.

I disagree.

He is capable. He has the physical strength. He has ball control. He can run. He can dribble. He can shoot.

I don't see why he cannot use those attributes to win us games.

Perhaps he is lacking the mentality to do so. But this can be improved.
 
nick2004 said:
What you are saying is that Pogba is a luxury player.
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No. I'm saying that Pogba is best deployed as an attacking midfielder who isn't a playmaker.

He's yer free man. The ace up yer sleeve.

A luxury player is a lazy cnut who may chip in with a bit of genius when he's arsed. That ain't Pogba. He's not a lazy cnut. But he ain't a playmaker. Nor a player who is excellent positionally (meaning: the ability to be at the right place at all times).
 
Yep, I've said that before he even signed for us. If people wanted/expected a guy who'd run games for us, they'll either be disappointed or end up waiting a few years till he learns that as he's never done that so far in his career. If we wanted a young CM who'd run a game for the team, Verratti is the guy. Unattainable though unfortunately.
 
sunama said:
The fact (based on what has actually happened) is that Pogba has been unable to get a game by the scruff of the neck and drive it forward.
For example, in the Stoke game, that ex-LFC player ran the show. He drove his team forward. He was a powerhouse.
When we played MCFC, De Bruyne powered their team forward.
So far Pogba has not been able to put in these types of performances which other players have done against us, in recent games. I admit he came close in his first game for us, but since then his level has dropped.
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Not against Stoke, maybe, but he did against Leicester, and against Southampton. Remember that Pogba is not a Xavi. Even in his very best performance, you won't see him constantly on the ball or dictating the pace of the game. He's more of a Touré, who will make his mark in individual moments. If he'd scored those two chances against Stoke, it would be another example of the same thing. People are right to say that 'if' and 'if only' are pointless when talking about a match, but they're useful when talking about the season ahead, because if Pogba plays three games like he did against Stoke, he'll most likely score one or two of those chances in two of those games. What he nearly did against Stoke is indicative of what he'll probably do against other people.

Most in this thread are overthinking at the moment. He's just started with us, he's doing fairly well, he's put in a couple of special performances and a couple of 'ok' ones. Importantly, he's produced moments in both types of performance which evidenced his world-class quality - record-signing sort of quality - and with time we'll see those moments more and more.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
No. I'm saying that Pogba is best deployed as an attacking midfielder who isn't a playmaker.

He's yer free man. The ace up yer sleeve.

A luxury player is a lazy cnut who may chip in with a bit of genius when he's arsed. That ain't Pogba. He's not a lazy cnut. But he ain't a playmaker. Nor a player who is excellent positionally (meaning: the ability to be at the right place at all times).
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We have different definitions of the "luxury player".

For me a "lazy player" is simply a lazy player.

On the other hand, a "luxury player" is someone who looks great when everybody else plays well, but you can't expect him to save your team and give you the three points when everybody else does not perform so well. It is like a "trophy wife". She looks good when everything goes well, but if shit happens then you can't expect any help from her.

(Edit: No, I don't think that Pogba is a luxury player. And we should not treat him like one. We should expect him to win us games!)
 
Pogue Mahone said:
If creating/scoring goals is all you seem to want to judge a central midfielder by, why not just play a different attacking player in there?

Three in midfield. Hererra deep, with Mata and Mikhi ahead of him. Oodles of goals and assists right there. More than Pogba has ever, or will ever, achieve. What's wrong with this line-up?
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Well if you believe that Herrera, Mata and Mikhi will all provide more goals/assists than Pogba then we fundamentally disagree so no point arguing about it

Also, I never say that it what a CM should be judged on - I am saying it is what Pogba should ultimately be judged on since this is what we signed him to provide. We didn't pay £90m for a player to shield the back 4 or "keep the play ticking over" in the midfield.
 
I love all the football experts and analysts on here who keep telling me that "Pogba has frequently been out of position or played with ill-discipline"

First of all, in order to determine this, you would need to know what Mourinho has asked Pogba to do, which you don't.

Secondly, at least 25% of this Forum will have never played any football at all. The next 25% will never have played any organised football at all. Of the remaining 50% we maybe have 1% who have actually played at a good level. It baffles me how you think you can determine that Pogba has been ill-disciplined and out of position without understanding the nuances of a football match at the highest level

Just because Carragher or Merson or Charlie Nicholas said it on the telly doesn't mean you can or should keep repeating it as if its fact
 
Lentwood said:
Well if you believe that Herrera, Mata and Mikhi will all provide more goals/assists than Pogba then we fundamentally disagree so no point arguing about it

Also, I never say that it what a CM should be judged on - I am saying it is what Pogba should ultimately be judged on since this is what we signed him to provide. We didn't pay £90m for a player to shield the back 4 or "keep the play ticking over" in the midfield.
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Not Hererra. I'm specifically talking about Mata and Mikhi in terms of assists/goals. Their records shit all over Pogba in this regard. Do you really expect him to be more productive than those two? He's never come close before. What's going to change?
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Elephant schmelephant.

I love his type - as a player.

But he (obviously) isn't a playmaker. Nor a metronome. Nor a player you can expect to "dominate" (as people say) matches for the full 90 on a regular basis. Nor a player you can expect to regularly cover/shield in the capacity of an actual defensive midfielder.

He'll work best in a free role of sorts - seems pretty clear.

He won't win us anything on his own - and, again, that was pretty feckin' obvious to begin with. World record transfer means feck all - gets the muppets giddy and Woody no doubt likes the idea from a marketing perspective. From a football perspective it has no meaning whatsoever. He is nowhere near the most valuable player in the world on the pitch - again, as anyone with half a brain knew before we signed him.
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Exactly this, thank you.


It seems like a lot of the negative people in here have never seen the guy play the past few years.
He wasn't a player who dominated the pitch for 90min week in and week out in Italy, or the CL, or the EC.. But apparently that doesn't matter because the moment we paid £90m for him he became the best midfielder in history overnight.

I'm sorry but paying a lot of money for someone doesn't make them a better player, it doesn't change a single thing about their abilities which it seems like some people actually believe.

Perhaps you guys should take a look at some of his performances from last season and base your expectations on those instead of only looking at what digits his transfer fee consisted of.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Not Hererra. I'm specifically talking about Mata and Mikhi in terms of assists/goals. Their records shit all over Pogba in this regard. Do you really expect him to be more productive than those two? He's never come close before. What's going to change?
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Come on Pogue, are we really going to compare stats like-for-like for Mata and Mhiki who have probably played 20 yards closer to goal than Pogba?

The reason Pogba cost £90m is because he is very unique. If we asked Pogba to play holding midfield and act as a destroyer, I am sure he could. If we asked him to sit deep and play as a "quarterback" I am sure he could. I think most on here believe his best position is as a Yaya Toure type midfielder who plays centrally, starts deep but who has the physical attributes and technique to advance with the ball and provide goals and assists

Remember Pogba is 23 years old and is playing in an unsettled side where more than half of the squad have been in the first team squad at Utd for 3 years or less under 3 different managers. Give him at least until the end of the season

Anybody would think he has been shocking - lest we forget he has played what 5/6 league games and has been named MOTM twice!!!
 
Varun said:
Yep, I've said that before he even signed for us. If people wanted/expected a guy who'd run games for us, they'll either be disappointed or end up waiting a few years till he learns that as he's never done that so far in his career. If we wanted a young CM who'd run a game for the team, Verratti is the guy. Unattainable though unfortunately.
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Yeah, Pogbas more like Gerrard. He can win you games but don't expect him to control them.
 
nick2004 said:
We have different definitions of the "luxury player".

For me a "lazy player" is simply a lazy player.

On the other hand, a "luxury player" is someone who looks great when everybody else plays well, but you can't expect him to save your team and give you the three points when everybody else does not perform so well. It is like a "trophy wife". She looks good when everything goes well, but if shit happens then you can't expect any help from her.

(Edit: No, I don't think that Pogba is a luxury player. And we should not treat him like one. We should expect him to win us games!)
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Your definition is flawed. It dictates that almost every single footballer in history (aside from a spectacular few) is a luxury player.

So, yeah.
 
Pogba is fine, anyway. He isn't going to dictate and control the flow of a game, but that isn't why he's in the team.

However, we look better going forward than we have in a long time and Pogba is part of the reason why. He's creative, he's dynamic and he'll help us score goals.

Balancing out the rest of the side is up to the manager, something he's largely failed at doing thus far.
 
NinjaFletch said:
If people are honest he was never worth £90m and we ridiculously over-paid. That doesn't necessarily mean he'll turn out to be a bad signing but if people are always going to compare him to his fee he's always going to look bad.
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I don't think that the money we paid was all about the player we have now. Yes that was a big part of it but it was also a statement that we can splash the cash and spend big. It was also to do with marketing. Paul is one of the Kool Kidz of modern football. If he shows anything like the ability that he has in his feet he will be a massive draw for both merchandising and endorsements.

If we are going to let Rooney go need a big personality to take his place and become the face of the team.
 
Kag said:
Your definition is flawed. It dictates that almost every single footballer in history (aside from a spectacular few) is a luxury player.

So, yeah.
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My understanding is they are the opposite of a water carrier.
They shine when the team has the ball, you don't expect them to be consistently contributing defensively for the whole 90 minutes or extensively tracking back.
You do expect them to come up with a moment of brilliance, unlock a defense, or keep the tempo ticking.
 
Lentwood said:
I love all the football experts and analysts on here who keep telling me that "Pogba has frequently been out of position or played with ill-discipline"

First of all, in order to determine this, you would need to know what Mourinho has asked Pogba to do, which you don't.

Secondly, at least 25% of this Forum will have never played any football at all. The next 25% will never have played any organised football at all. Of the remaining 50% we maybe have 1% who have actually played at a good level. It baffles me how you think you can determine that Pogba has been ill-disciplined and out of position without understanding the nuances of a football match at the highest level

Just because Carragher or Merson or Charlie Nicholas said it on the telly doesn't mean you can or should keep repeating it as if its fact
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I get what you are saying and I highly doubt there are any PL footballers who frequent the caf but I don't think you need to have played at the highest level to understand football. Look at our manager. Certain things will be lost on the average fan but I think it is fair to point out the Pogba is playing in a different position to when he was at Juventus and with a very different support cast. Whilst the players around him seem to have defined responsibilities his role seems unclear - something echoed by a large number of ex PL footballers (those who supposedly understand the 'nuances of football at the highest level').

We might all be wrong, so might Mourinho and we may never know where Pobga plays best. I personally would like to see him as a B2B all rounder, doing slightly more defensively than he does now, more like Gerrard in his prime - not that I think they are similar players - but he has that level in the locker if we can coax it out of him.
 
I think it is important to assume he is a very good player but will not win the league by himself. he will be a very valuable piece once the squad is complete. Now it is a mixture of three coaches. It would be good to try as much as possible to forget his price, if not the feelings will always be negative. What stats has exactly to get a midfielder to justify that price?
 
amolbhatia50k said:
I'm not worried or disappointed. I knew that Pogba was neither absolutely top class nor the finished article. What he is, is a unique player who could be phenomenal but is still rough around the edges.

At the same time I think he's been fairly good so far, it's just that his pefornances have varied a tad much. When he's been good he's been sublime whereas he's had a lot of moments/some games where he's looked off the pace and somewhat all over the place, although he's still had an impact in those too, to an extent.

Give him time and a platform, and let's hope we reach somewhere special. It's hardly like you've seen mediocrity from him thus far. Hes already had many moments of quality. It's about delivering them more regularly.
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A properly balanced assessment here sir, well done.
 
My doubts about Pogba aren't, and never were even when he was a kid, to do with his talent. He's always been a fantastic passer with a great shot and close control, as well as being an impressive athlete. My questions are, as they always were, to do with what goes on in his head.

Much like Gerrard or perhaps Yaya Touré, I think he'll go on to be a very good player no matter what, but he's frustrating to watch since, in his career to date, I've never seen a game from him where I felt he was playing to his true potential. He's not good enough to play at the very top level as a pure forward, and I think that would also be a waste of his abilities in many ways. He needs to learn how and when to stay disciplined, and how to control games from midfield. He's more than talented enough to do this, and when he does we won't be talking about him "having the right partner" or "right system" that plays to his strnegths, in the same way we rarely worried about that for Scholes or Keane.

The Leicester game was actually a really good sign in this regard for me. He maintained very good discipline, did OK at finding space, and still showed flashes of pure ability in his passing or danger in the box. That's the beginnings of the Pogba I want to see.

""But that's the trouble with potential. People don't identify potential. They're very poor at it.

"I've identified all my life the potential in young people. I know potential. I know how to develop and have faith in it. And young people surprise you when given the opportunity. That's what this club is all about."
 
90 million was paid for a 40 million player. Pogba is marketable because he has a high level of flair but he's the ultimate complementary luxury player meaning without the proper foundation his value is mitigated. He needs two other midfielders to take on the fundamental duties so he can play in a free role.

United doesn't have those players at the moment.
 
AllezLesDiables said:
90 million was paid for a 40 million player. Pogba is marketable because he has a high level of flair but he's the ultimate complementary luxury player meaning without the proper foundation his value is mitigated. He needs two other midfielders to take on the fundamental duties so he can play in a free role.

United doesn't have those players at the moment.
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You would think from that Pogba would be incapable of moving if he didn't have a world class team to drop into. Disturbing hyperbole.
Nope, all wrong, on every level. Fits in nicely with the doom merchants though.
As for making his judgement in October, that's embarrasing, have a word.
Pogba is ace, top, top player.
 
People have these crazy unrealistic expectations. Pogba is still young, still learning to play at the highest level, it's a new football country for him (his youth career doesn't really count), a new system, a new manager, worse teammates than at Juventus. It'll take him some time to deliver good performances consistently and even at his best, he isn't a player who will carry Utd with consecutive top class performances. Yes we paid a lot of money for him but most of it isn't based on his footballing ability, we overpaid for him when it comes to football, hell we got fleeced even but it doesn't he won't turn out to be a great player for us. Let us be patient please.
 
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