Australia Tour of South Africa 2018/Ball tampering

jungledrums said:
What if he wasn’t fully aware of the intention to tamper with the ball until afterwards? If so, can’t you sympathise?
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I suppose in that hard to believe example I would argue that a loss of captaincy would be sufficient if enough evidence that this was the case was available.
 
neelu91 said:
CA isnt going to take twitter speculation and hypotheticals to decide the severity of punishment. Nor does he deserve any sympathy for it.
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@DiseaseOfTheAge


I wouldn’t be posting if my sources were Twitter or random hypotheticals. It’s journos and cricket Australia that have said that. He may have known more than he’s led on, but if his version of events are to be believed, he deserves some sympathy. Note, I still think a ban is in order, just nothing near the current ruling.
 
jungledrums said:
@DiseaseOfTheAge


I wouldn’t be posting if my sources were Twitter or random hypotheticals It’s journos and cricket Australia that have said that. He may have known more than he’s led on, but if his version of events are to be believed, he deserves some sympathy. Note, I still think a ban is in order, just nothing near the current ruling.
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I think there are an awful lot of us who find this version of events very hard to believe and to be honest, wonder whether anyone believing them would believe them if he wasn't such a brilliant batsman - as obviously insulting as that is.
 


Bet Lehmann spewed up inside when talking about point 4. Boof has been a very big believer in the Australian way. Acknowledging that would have made him churn up inside.

I hope Australia can play hard, aggressive and most importantly winning cricket without stepping outside ICC guidelines. They've done been in trouble with the ICC on three occasions so far with the offences and sanctions getting progressively worse.

If Australian teams want to sledge, just keep it witty, clever and smart. Maybe keep the sledging sporadic instead of incessant.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I think there are an awful lot of us who find this version of events very hard to believe and to be honest, wonder whether anyone believing them would believe them if he wasn't such a brilliant batsman - as obviously insulting as that is.
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Reports consistently list Warner as the ‘chief’ moron so I suppose I’m more inclined to side with Smith. I understand your point though.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I think there are an awful lot of us who find this version of events very hard to believe and to be honest, wonder whether anyone believing them would believe them if he wasn't such a brilliant batsman - as obviously insulting as that is.
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Honestly the Smith being the innocent and unfortunate bystander that his mates in the media are trying to portray is likely a load of bollocks. Warner deserves it but he is clearly being labelled as the scapegoat here in order to save St Smith's career and reputation.
 
Given that we now know Smith and Bancroft lied to the media when it first broke I do find it hard to believe that what they've said since represents the full truth.

Similarly I find it staggering to go from Smith telling the world the whole leadership group was involved to now the story being that it was big bad David Warner wot dunnit and no one could stop him.

My bet is they took the opportunity the delay in the investigation starting gave them to concoct a different lie that throws Warner under the bus.
 
2mufc0 said:
The OTT sledging isn't something that has happened over the last 20 years it's been in Australian cricket 'culture' for a long time, from the likes of Lillee to McGrath now Warner et al.
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Thanks for pointing something out that I already knew. The key 'turn' however is when Steve Waugh talks publicly about 'mental disintregation' - and this is when a magnificent team is suddenly in the spotlight for their 'activities' to chip away and undermine the oppostion, including ugly racial overtones.
 
As absurd and extreme as the ban is, you've to hand it to the CA for going through with it. No other board would have done this, that's for sure.

Interesting that Warner has been banned for life while Smith and Bancroft are only banned for a couple of years from leadership roles. That's certainly a good indicative that Warner is the main guilty party so it's not some conspiracy to point out Warner's crime may have been worse. CA would have thrown Lehmann in as well had he been guilty so I'm inclined to think he wasn't involved.

Feel sorry for Bancroft. All well and good to say he shouldn't have done what he was told and while that's true, as an inexperienced player trying to find his place his team in the team he was put in a tough position.

It's shame anyhow. Two very good players banned including the best player in the world.
 
Not entirely sure why anyone feels sympathetic for any of the players. Bancroft is 25, Smith is nearly 29 and Warner is 31. They aren't kids, they know what is right and what is wrong. If Bancroft wanted to nail down his position in the team he should have gone about scoring more runs, there's a part of me that was convinced he was only ever called into the side to antagonise Bairstow anyway.

The reports on Smith today have actually made him look like an even bigger idiot. First of all there's the suggestion that he 'didn't want to know' what Bancroft and Warner were doing and he left them to it. Um, you're the captain mate, it is your business to know what is going on especially with who is looking after the ball because the entire team needs to know how the ball is going to be treated in order to induce reverse swing. Secondly he bloody well knew very well what was going on but chose to ignore it, guilt was etched all over his face when the umpires collared Bancroft. Lastly, and critically at this moment, in the time between the close of play and the press conference if Lehmann and no one else in the coaching staff miraculously had no role to play who had the bright idea to come up with the tape excuse and to implicate the 'leadership group'. Smith's demeanour at the time suggested he had not grasped the enormity of the situation and I'm having a very hard time believing he let Warner scheme it up if Warner instigated the tampering in the first place.

The tape stuff was rubbish and everyone knew from the start it was sandpaper. A team that has never done that before doesn't have a piece of sandpaper lying around that can be perfectly concealed within the palm of someone's hand. The way things are going Sutherland might end up talking himself out of a job and all.
 
I have very little sympathy for them. While I was very surprised at the length of the ban that CA put out, I'm glad that that CA has put their foot down on this. Sledging and such, I've always ignored it as basically it is just words and doesn't give any true advantage. But blatant cheating, and then to admit it in such an uncaring way in the press conference after should rightfully be punished.

The ICC punishment of a fine for the person doing it and a single match ban for Smith was largely a joke, and shows that the international body really doesn't want to punish players properly for cheating.

I was expecting more of a 3-6month ban, and a life ban from captaincy to be the end result. But with the players now looking at legal options, I lose the little sympathy I had for them. I don't know what they are hoping to achieve with that, other than to further anger the Australian public. Even if they get the ban overturned on a legal basis, then CA should simply not select them. It just strikes me as another point that shows these players thought they were above everything, and untouchable.
 
Smith and Bancroft just spoke to the press in Aus. Smith’s particularly was heart wrenching to watch. His version of events (and the rest of the Aus board) is that he did not know about the plan, however did attempt to conceal it after he became aware of it. With that said, you could not watch his press conference without feeling sorry for him. He at one point, holding back tears, apologised for the pain he’s caused everyone else. He’s clearly, clearly the one most in pain, later breaking down when describing how much his family were affected too. In a sport with tampering as prevalent as it is, this crusade against Smith and co has been ridiculous.
 
Any one who believes that Smith had no idea before it happened is just plain naive. Ask yourself a simple question. Why would anyone willingly implicate themselves in something like this if they were not involved?
He may not have come up with the plan but he definitely knew about it. If he did not, his post match press conference would not have had a "It was a senior members collective decision" theme but a rather "I did not know about it until it happened but as captain I take moral responsibility" theme.
 
kiristao said:
Any one who believes that Smith had no idea before it happened is just plain naive. Ask yourself a simple question. Why would anyone willingly implicate themselves in something like this if they were not involved?
He may not have come up with the plan but he definitely knew about it. If he did not, his post match press conference would not have had a "It was a senior members collective decision" theme but a rather "I did not know about it until it happened but as captain I take moral responsibility" theme.
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He didn't implicate himself in the hatching of the plan, he implicated himself in the attempt to conceal it after he found out about it. Either way he's copping a huge ban for concealing it which is in many people's eyes just as bad, so why name and shame every other individual involved? I don't know for sure and nor do you, don't act so fecking pious with your 'naive' bs.
 
Is Smith remorseful? Probably

Is he still telling us the full story? No

Smith reiterated that this was the first time ball-tampering had happened in the Australian team that he was aware of. "To my knowledge, this has never happened before. It is the first time, and it will never happen again."
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Well, I doubt this will happen again from this group of Australian players. If there is anything good we can take from that, it is that.
 
jungledrums said:
He didn't implicate himself in the hatching of the plan, he implicated himself in the attempt to conceal it after he found out about it. Either way he's copping a huge ban for concealing it which is in many people's eyes just as bad, so why name and shame every other individual involved? I don't know for sure and nor do you, don't act so fecking pious with your 'naive' bs.
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You seem to be taking this unnecessarily personally.
 
jungledrums said:
He didn't implicate himself in the hatching of the plan, he implicated himself in the attempt to conceal it after he found out about it. Either way he's copping a huge ban for concealing it which is in many people's eyes just as bad, so why name and shame every other individual involved? I don't know for sure and nor do you, don't act so fecking pious with your 'naive' bs.
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After he was caught, he also went and lied about it being tape, when it was evidently sandpaper, which shows how much thinking went into this crime.

That was his opportunity to really tell the truth and he didnt.
 
K2K said:
After he was caught, he also went and lied about it being tape, when it was evidently sandpaper, which shows how much thinking went into this crime.

That was his opportunity to really tell the truth and he didnt.
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I have no idea why they lied about that, but can understand as it was just after it had happened. Being two sports blokes and not trained politicians, they probably thought that'd diminish the issue rather than make it worse.
Hammerfell said:
You seem to be taking this unnecessarily personally.
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I'm not taking the comments personally, I just feel for the guy to be honest with you and feel he's been treated unnecessarily. It's laughable the media attention it's getting when a) it's not particularly unprecedented in cricket and b) he's essentially facing the shame a drug trafficker (or other criminal) would.
 
I personally think the punishment is harsh. This will also likely end their chances of being captains. Ball tampering to a degree has gone on since Cricket was invented. A series ban would have been justified. Prime Minister and many ex-players getting involved made ACB jump to a hasty decision.
 
jungledrums said:
I have no idea why they lied about that, but can understand as it was just after it had happened. Being two sports blokes and not trained politicians, they probably thought that'd diminish the issue rather than make it worse.

I'm not taking the comments personally, I just feel for the guy to be honest with you and feel he's been treated unnecessarily. It's laughable the media attention it's getting when a) it's not particularly unprecedented in cricket and b) he's essentially facing the shame a drug trafficker (or other criminal) would.
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But you can at least understand that him lying like that makes us question everything else he is saying?
 
K2K said:
But you can at least understand that him lying like that makes us question everything else he is saying?
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Yep. I suppose I'm not equating a reaction in the heat of the moment as indicative of his wider attitude towards this situation. Have you ever lied to diminish consequences immediately after making a mistake, only to later come clean and regret ever doing so? Not just within a sporting capacity, mind, because I know I have.
 
jungledrums said:
Yep. I suppose I'm not equating a reaction in the heat of the moment as indicative of his wider attitude towards this situation. Have you ever lied to diminish consequences immediately after making a mistake, only to later come clean and regret ever doing so? Not just within a sporting capacity, mind, because I know I have.
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I can understand that point of view, and I probably have.

But when caught, I must be willing to face the consequences. And one of these is the lost trust that comes with it from the public
 
Watching Bancroft and Smith face the media was tough. However the emotion displayed by both doesn't change my view that Cricket Australia has sent the strongest message imaginable and i feel they're justified in dishing out tough, hard sanctions.

Smith's extremely emotional press conference comes exactly three years on from Australia winning the 50 over World Cup. Darren Lehmann said yesterday they may have to take a leaf out of the team they beat in that final.

Dave Warner will face the media in the coming days. I have strong doubts that Lehmann is the man to lead the cultural change many feel is required. His legacy, beyond wins, draws and losses will be shaped by the behaviour of the team from this point on.
 
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K2K said:
I can understand that point of view, and I probably have.

But when caught, I must be willing to face the consequences. And one of these is the lost trust that comes with it from the public
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Fair enough, can't really argue with that.
 
Xaviesta said:
Watching Bancroft and Smith face the media was tough. However the emotion displayed by both doesn't change my view that Cricket Australia has sent the strongest message imaginable and i feel they're justified in dishing out tough, hard sanctions.

Smith's extremely emotional press conference comes exactly three years on from Australia winning the 50 over World Cup. Darren Lehmann said yesterday they may have to take a leaf out of the team they beat in that final.

Dave Warner will face the media in the coming days. I have strong doubts that Lehmann is the man to lead the cultural change many feel is required. His legacy, beyond wins, draws and losses will be shaped by the behaviour of the team from this point on.
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I still think Smith was lying through his teeth about the number of times they've done it so I have little sympathy for him still.
 
The Man Himself said:
I don't agree that this sets a precedent because it is CA handing out heavy sanctions, not ICC. For ex, I don't trust BCCI to hand out such big punishments, particularly say players like Kohli, Dhawan, Rohit etc are involved in similar incident. So that way, it is just CA trying to show zero tolerance and being very committed to no form of cheating whatsoever, but still, it is excessive ban.
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Never mind that, the IPL fixing scandal proves that the BCCI are spineless - throwing all the blame on Sreesanth while Dhoni got away scot free... But I digress, this thread isn't the place for this discussion.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I still think Smith was lying through his teeth about the number of times they've done it so I have little sympathy for him still.
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Well we just don't know (at least not yet) But yeh I struggle too to feel any sympathy for these guys. Without being caught they'd all be happy as Larry and delighted with themselves for thinking they remain one step ahead of everyone else in the game that they regard as mugs.

I doubt we'll see Warner blubbing. A good cricketer but as odious an individual as you'll find in top flight sport. The epitome of what is so distasteful about the modern game.
 
jungledrums said:
He didn't implicate himself in the hatching of the plan, he implicated himself in the attempt to conceal it after he found out about it.
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Listen to his post match conference again. He says that "the leadership group spoke about it and thought it was a way to get an advantage". If this statement does not implicate himself in the planning then I do not know what does. Unless you want me to believe that he was not part of the "leadership group".

jungledrums said:
Either way he's copping a huge ban for concealing it which is in many people's eyes just as bad, so why name and shame every other individual involved? I don't know for sure and nor do you, don't act so fecking pious with your 'naive' bs.
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My point was that if he was not involved as naive people like you want to believe, then he would not have said he was involved. Just because he does not want to name someone else, he should name himself? that makes no sense.
By the way, stop taking this so personally. You are acting like people are accusing you of conniving with him.
 
Barca84 said:
Well we just don't know (at least not yet) But yeh I struggle too to feel any sympathy for these guys. Without being caught they'd all be happy as Larry and delighted with themselves for thinking they remain one step ahead of everyone else in the game that they regard as mugs.

I doubt we'll see Warner blubbing. A good cricketer but as odious an individual as you'll find in top flight sport. The epitome of what is so distasteful about the modern game.
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Yeah, it's the typical 'we're sorry we were caught' crocodile tears that you see from small children.
 
kiristao said:
Listen to his post match conference again. He says that "the leadership group spoke about it and thought it was a way to get an advantage". If this statement does not implicate himself in the planning then I do not know what does. Unless you want me to believe that he was not part of the "leadership group".


My point was that if he was not involved as naive people like you want to believe, then he would not have said he was involved. Just because he does not want to name someone else, he should name himself? that makes no sense.
By the way, stop taking this so personally. You are acting like people are accusing you of conniving with him.
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"Damningly of Smith's captaincy, his ban was based on him knowing of the plan but failing to take steps to prevent it.

Further, CA's investigation found that it was Smith who directed "that evidence of attempted tampering be concealed on the field of play" – in other words, Smith told Bancroft to hide the yellow object now known to be sandpaper in his trousers.Smith was also found to have "misled match officials and others regarding Bancroft’s attempts to artificially alter the condition of the ball" and "misleading public comments regarding the nature, extent and participants of the plan"."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket...d-warner-handed-12-month-bans-australia-ball/

So, my interpretation is as follows: he only found out about it after the fact and then attempted to hide any evidence of wrongdoing. These are the official findings though, so to call me naive is rather strange, not to mention obnoxious. Would that mean those from the Telegraph that printed that article, and indeed those that adjudicated Smith's tribunal are also naive? I don't deny I'm passionate about this situation, but the only one taking this personally, going by your tone, is you.
 
jungledrums said:
"Damningly of Smith's captaincy, his ban was based on him knowing of the plan but failing to take steps to prevent it.

Further, CA's investigation found that it was Smith who directed "that evidence of attempted tampering be concealed on the field of play" – in other words, Smith told Bancroft to hide the yellow object now known to be sandpaper in his trousers.Smith was also found to have "misled match officials and others regarding Bancroft’s attempts to artificially alter the condition of the ball" and "misleading public comments regarding the nature, extent and participants of the plan"."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket...d-warner-handed-12-month-bans-australia-ball/

So, my interpretation is as follows: he only found out about it after the fact and then attempted to hide any evidence of wrongdoing. These are the official findings though, so to call me naive is rather strange, not to mention obnoxious. Would that mean those from the Telegraph that printed that article, and indeed those that adjudicated Smith's tribunal are also naive? I don't deny I'm passionate about this situation, but the only one taking this personally, going by your tone, is you.
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Can you explain to me what the bold bit in your post means?
 
kiristao said:
Can you explain to me what the bold bit in your post means?
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Is your point not that he planned it? He did not plan it is my point, and I've posted the proof that he did not.

Also, if it is such a foreign concept that a captain would attempt to take heat off his players then it speaks volumes of your character.
 
jungledrums said:
Is your point not that he planned it? He did not plan it is my point, and I've posted the proof that he did not.

Also, if it is such a foreign concept that a captain would attempt to take heat off his players then it speaks volumes of your character.
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He clearly says in his post match press conference that "the leadership group spoke about it and thought it was a way to get an advantage". If that does not imply being part of the planning or at least being aware of it being thought about then I do not know what is. Could be either one. What it simply cannot be that he had no idea it would/could happen and only learnt about it after it happened.

A captain taking the heat is a very common practice. You do that stuff when players make mistakes or are being criticized for poor performances, etc. You do not do it when someone is blatantly cheating. And even if yo do decided to take the heat when someone is cheating, yoo do not turn around and call yourself a cheat.

Stop making assumptions of what I understand or do not understand to question my character. The only one whose character is in question here is Steve Smiths. The other thing in question is if you actually naive or your biased opinion is making you act so naive.
 
Sultan said:
I personally think the punishment is harsh. This will also likely end their chances of being captains. Ball tampering to a degree has gone on since Cricket was invented. A series ban would have been justified. Prime Minister and many ex-players getting involved made ACB jump to a hasty decision.
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They were concerned about sponsors jumping ship as Magellan have done and as they currently negotiating a new TV deal, it's a bad time for your entire team to be seen as a bunch of cheats. So damage limitation was all CA could do.
 
Correct decision for the man known as 'Boof' to step down. I do not believe the required cultural and behavioural changes could have been made with him at the helm. After all, he's the one who has encouraged Australia to push the line, headbutt the line as Nathan Lyon called it. The emotion of Smith's presser would have been eye opening for Lehmann.

Justin Langer will be the favourite to take over. I like Kerry O'Keeffe's idea of Jason Gillespie with Simon Katich involved. Two great blokes, who will make sure Australia can be successful without bringing shame and ignominy to Australia's most supported ans most important national team.
 
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