Aurelien Tchouameni / Signs for Madrid

[Adnan]

My post wasn't really specific to this player exclusively, so yeah the term 'people' was perfectly appropriate. Not sure why you've taken offence, you seem to think I was aiming my comment at you?

I haven't taken offence at all. But it would be nice to hear your thoughts on the players strengths in relation to ten Hag's system, and why you would disagree with my assertion that going the extra mile for this profile of player would be a move akin to what we've done before with players like Sanchez and others in the past.

 

[RedC]

I haven't taken offence at all. But it would be nice to hear your thoughts on the players strengths in relation to ten Hag's system, and why you would disagree with my assertion that going the extra mile for this profile of player would be a move akin to what we've done before with players like Sanchez and others in the past.

I have never even seen this guy kick a ball, I was reading this thread and saw some hyperbolic comments, akin to some others I've seen in other threads, and made my post based on that. I think we should move away from paying very young players crazy money full stop, no matter how promising they seem to be, that is just my opinion.

 

[Adnan]

I have never even seen this guy kick a ball, I was reading this thread and saw some hyperbolic comments, akin to some others I've seen in other threads, and made my post based on that. I think we should move away from paying very young players crazy money full stop, no matter how promising they seem to be, that is just my opinion.

I'm not sure money will be a primary motive for Tchouameni, because if it was, he wouldn't have moved to Monaco from Bordeaux a few years back when there was EPL interest in taking him.

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

£80m for Maguire on £150k a week is poor business. It’s not the same as getting this guy and giving him and extra £30k a week compared to Liverpool.

I think he's getting paid a lot more than that

 

[Mainoldo]

I think he's getting paid a lot more than that

That’s the sad truth.

 

[Cassidy]

Breaking their wage structure.. Which is exactly my point. Our wage structure is bigger than there’s. I’m not saying go stupid I’m saying he’ll be better paid playing for us.

No ours is broken and we need to fix it

 

[Mainoldo]

I have never even seen this guy kick a ball, I was reading this thread and saw some hyperbolic comments, akin to some others I've seen in other threads, and made my post based on that. I think we should move away from paying very young players crazy money full stop, no matter how promising they seem to be, that is just my opinion.

The point was when your less attractive team you have to offer more money. It’s how Chelsea and City built teams with great players. But obviously it’s not something we should do because we tried it with players like Maguire and AWB.

I also pointed out this is not a problem is your requirement is right. If it is I don’t know people are so concerned about offer better wages than Liverpool unless I’m missing something and we are planning on another expensive rebuild based on average players.

 

[Mainoldo]

No ours is broken and we need to fix it

Yep but It doesn’t start with basic wages for Tchouameni. We just won’t get him.

 

[Cassidy]

Yep but It doesn’t start with basic wages for Tchouameni. We just won’t get him.

If money is the deciding factor then we shouldn’t

 

[Mainoldo]

If money is the deciding factor then we shouldn’t

So why would a player come to us over Liverpool?

So we want good players but we want them to pick us over better clubs because??

Explain the incentive?

 

[RiqCantona]

I think Chelsea will be in contention for him too. I think by the time July comes, they'll have a new owner and they'll want to show they mean business.

Of course! Why not. They're completely bare in the DM/CM department.

 

[TheRedHearted]

The point was when your less attractive team you have to offer more money. It’s how Chelsea and City built teams with great players. But obviously it’s not something we should do because we tried it with players like Maguire and AWB.

I also pointed out this is not a problem is your requirement is right. If it is I don’t know people are so concerned about offer better wages than Liverpool unless I’m missing something and we are planning on another expensive rebuild based on average players.

Chelsea and City were also extremity ruthless with their signings. Don’t perform? You’re out. They also aimed for complete players, unlike our AWB signing (since he’s half a fullback). Players who fit their system (unlike signing maguire when we wanted a high line) or just hungrier players in general.

So why would a player come to us over Liverpool?

So we want good players but we want them to pick us over better clubs because??

Explain the incentive?

It’s a great point. We should give big wages to superstars who aren’t older, with the idea that it’s to bridge the gap till we compete. Not expect to compete while making wrong signings

 

[Cassidy]

So why would a player come to us over Liverpool?

So we want good players but we want them to pick us over better clubs because??

Explain the incentive?

Because we sell them the project and guarantee starts.
We shouldn't sign players through high wages only or prematurely give extraordinary wages to young unproven talents (like he is). That in itself can hurt their development

If we cant sign him we simply need to find another player

 

[Fortitude]

Because we sell them the project and guarantee starts.
We shouldn't sign players through high wages only or prematurely give extraordinary wages to young unproven talents (like he is). That in itself can hurt their development

If we cant sign him we simply need to find another player

You can only do that from a position of strength; if we're not offering more wages, selling a project is going to be far harder. Liverpool can sell a better project whilst also offering the same assurances, plus Klopp is a special manager in this era with an aura that is growing. In the same way Ferguson's name got players through our doors, both Klopp and Pep have the same sway: why then is a player going to pick us over either without money as the incentive?

Breaking the bank for certain players will never not be a thing. We've always done it - Keane was a transfer record at the time as an up and comer, and I'm sure the wage we offered would have been top bracket on top of that.

I think it comes down to how highly a player is regarded as to whether the financial plunge is taken, but getting this level of talent to come here in our current state without offering a superior financial package is remote when we don't have the greatest power of influence, and will only acquire it once we're a force again.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

As a few others have pointed out....we sadly have to offer more wages than we should do now because of our lack of CL footy. We don't have a choice.

If we let the top players go elsewhere we will never close the gap.

Our board and recruitment team have badly let us down. I'm glad some have lost their jobs.

 

[Cassidy]

You can only do that from a position of strength; if we're not offering more wages, selling a project is going to be far harder. Liverpool can sell a better project whilst also offering the same assurances, plus Klopp is a special manager in this era with an aura that is growing. In the same way Ferguson's name got players through our doors, both Klopp and Pep have the same sway: why then is a player going to pick us over either without money as the incentive?

Breaking the bank for certain players will never not be a thing. We've always done it - Keane was a transfer record at the time as an up and comer, and I'm sure the wage we offered would have been top bracket on top of that.

I think it comes down to how highly a player is regarded as to whether the financial plunge is taken, but getting this level of talent to come here in our current state without offering a superior financial package is remote when we don't have the greatest power of influence, and will only acquire it once we're a force again.

Tell that to Dortmund. Clearly my point is being missed. We should target attainable players who are going to be the next top talents and build from there. We can target players who only want UCL when we are there. The rebuild does not need to take a single summer, and building long term (within a clear wage structure) is going to be more sustainable and we’ll have players who are not only motivated by money (like we have now)

Why should he join us over Liverpool, well because he’ll start every game here and we’re building a team to knock Liverpool off their perch. If he doesnt buy into that he should go join Liverpool and spend a lot of time on the bench

Liverpool did not sign any player on crazy wages because they were not offering UCL football to get where they are today.

The last player we did that with, how did it work out?

 

[Bebestation]

Why wasn't he playing the last match?

 

[Fortitude]

Tell that to Dortmund. Clearly my point is being missed. We should target attainable players who are going to be the next top talents and build from there. We can target players who only want UCL when we are there. The rebuild does not need to take a single summer, and building long term (within a clear wage structure) is going to be more sustainable and we’ll have players who are not only motivated by money (like we have now)

Why should he join us over Liverpool, well because he’ll start every game here and we’re building a team to knock Liverpool off their perch. If he doesnt buy into that he should go join Liverpool and spend a lot of time on the bench

Liverpool did not sign any player on crazy wages because they were not offering UCL football to get where they are today.

The last player we did that with, how did it work out?

Dortmund have no relevance to United or the PL and the obstacles faced to actually get back to being even a competitive team. We're up against a minimum of three teams with not only better players than us, but also functioning systems in place; managers with footholds in the league; projects they can sell as readily as we can sell ours; managers with clout and draw (obviously moreso the top 2 than Tuchel); ageing midfields; massive reputation for developing and improving players; offering CL football, and every single one of them is in need of the next wave of up and coming talent. It's romantic to sell the dream of being 'the one' to bring us back to the top, but questionable how much appeal that has, especially so when our own reputation for developing players is at a relative all-time low where it used to be one of our greatest selling points.

Rangnick himself has said a rebuild is in line with a clubs budget and should not take eons, lest you gain on one end and lose out the back as those already there become disillusioned, for a net gain that is less than the sum of it parts should be - and no club wants to be in a perpetual rebuild cycle, which is why every one of our competitors dealt with theirs in the shortest period of time as per their financial constraints. Pep wiped out swathes of players like it was nothing, because he could; Klopp turned it around in as short a time as Liverpool's budget would allow, and Chelsea in are in constant flux when it comes to streamlining their squad (which evidently has not impacted on their ability to win things). The gradual rebuild doesn't exist anymore: every top team is as succinct as can be, here or across the continent.

Liverpool offered the wages they could, within their own remit and constraints, we will do the same, as and when we have to. Bowing out of the market for the best players available to your club does not happen. Being in the market for, and acquiring what you desire, are two different things, but every club throws their hat into the proverbial ring for the talent that is out there. A host of elite clubs will want Tchouameni, and you should question why that is. All will use the means at their disposal to woo the player; ours will invariably be a bigger wage, because it has to be. That cannot change until our football and ability to win trophies does our talking for us.

And on a final point, what you're talking about more refers to squaddies and those you pad out the peripheries of your squad with - those are the players you have take it or leave it offers on the table for because they're interchangeable, starters in positions that don't see much activity in the market, even in an active year, are going to be a bigger draw for a greater number of clubs, which is perfectly logical. I don't believe this is an avenue you go down for a host of players in multiple positions, but I would bet any money we'll do that for a few other talents considered special, if they would entertain coming here.

 

[Deleted 112447]

So why would a player come to us over Liverpool?

So we want good players but we want them to pick us over better clubs because??

Explain the incentive?

There have been a lot of players that went to clubs that had a lower expectation of trophies at the time. One of the big ones that we were involved in was Shearer. Pool themselves got some incredible talent with players like Torres, Suarez, Mascherano, etc while there were many huge clubs after them. The combination of play time, money, a project plus the potential to resurrect a slipping giant and become a legend to that club and hundreds of millions of people are very real things.

 

[RedC]

The point was when your less attractive team you have to offer more money. It’s how Chelsea and City built teams with great players. But obviously it’s not something we should do because we tried it with players like Maguire and AWB.

I also pointed out this is not a problem is your requirement is right. If it is I don’t know people are so concerned about offer better wages than Liverpool unless I’m missing something and we are planning on another expensive rebuild based on average players.

You can only do that from a position of strength; if we're not offering more wages, selling a project is going to be far harder. Liverpool can sell a better project whilst also offering the same assurances, plus Klopp is a special manager in this era with an aura that is growing. In the same way Ferguson's name got players through our doors, both Klopp and Pep have the same sway: why then is a player going to pick us over either without money as the incentive?

Breaking the bank for certain players will never not be a thing. We've always done it - Keane was a transfer record at the time as an up and comer, and I'm sure the wage we offered would have been top bracket on top of that.

I think it comes down to how highly a player is regarded as to whether the financial plunge is taken, but getting this level of talent to come here in our current state without offering a superior financial package is remote when we don't have the greatest power of influence, and will only acquire it once we're a force again.

As a few others have pointed out....we sadly have to offer more wages than we should do now because of our lack of CL footy. We don't have a choice.

If we let the top players go elsewhere we will never close the gap.

Our board and recruitment team have badly let us down. I'm glad some have lost their jobs.

Liverpool have built a team specifically by not doing this. More than anything, we need to be able to identify the correct type of players, not just throw cash at specific ones and pretend like there isn't another player in the world capable of doing what we want them to do.

 

[Mainoldo]

Tell that to Dortmund. Clearly my point is being missed. We should target attainable players who are going to be the next top talents and build from there. We can target players who only want UCL when we are there. The rebuild does not need to take a single summer, and building long term (within a clear wage structure) is going to be more sustainable and we’ll have players who are not only motivated by money (like we have now)

Why should he join us over Liverpool, well because he’ll start every game here and we’re building a team to knock Liverpool off their perch. If he doesnt buy into that he should go join Liverpool and spend a lot of time on the bench

Liverpool did not sign any player on crazy wages because they were not offering UCL football to get where they are today.

The last player we did that with, how did it work out?

Dortmund are a stepping stone to a bigger club. What kind of plan is that for Manchester United. The day we become Dortmund is the day we give up.

I get what you are trying to say. But we are who we are. We can’t play in the middle. We are either crap or we are elite. We can’t sit in the middle. Therefore We look to sign the elite. The only difference with the last rebuild is we signed crap and placed them on elite wages.

What we need to stick to his obtaining the elite a contract before there salary shows it. Which is what Rangnick has said.

Out of all the midfielders we have been linked with Tchouameni and Rice fit this. Which is why the majority of the cafe want this deal done. You saying let’s just go for the other target doesn’t progress us much, especially if I deal is feasible.

When I say offer him better wages I don’t me £250k a week. Liverpool will have a bracket which we naturally pay a higher premium on. Once that is sorted then you sell the project to make sure he buys into what he’s coming into.

Dortmund can do what they do because players know then can move on to play for clubs like us after. Why would we want that project.

 

[Mainoldo]

There have been a lot of players that went to clubs that had a lower expectation of trophies at the time. One of the big ones that we were involved in was Shearer. Pool themselves got some incredible talent with players like Torres, Suarez, Mascherano, etc while there were many huge clubs after them. The combination of play time, money, a project plus the potential to resurrect a slipping giant and become a legend to that club and hundreds of millions of people are very real things.

No they are. I’m not taking that away from us. Our current problem is we don’t have Champions League. Therefore we have to provide extra security for that.

 

[Fortitude]

Liverpool have built a team specifically by not doing this. More than anything, we need to be able to identify the correct type of players, not just throw cash at specific ones and pretend like there isn't another player in the world capable of doing what we want them to do.

Liverpool hit the jackpot with a perfect conflation of talent coming through the ranks and players who people doubted (and therefore didn't touch) absolutely maximising their talent. Mane, Henderson and Salah, in particular. Robertson, and particularly Trent-Alexander, are once a generation players that they themselves wouldn't find again.

Liverpool also only went to the stratospheric level when they finished off their build with one of the most expensive keeper and defender combinations in history, who many doubted and questioned at the time, particularly for the outlay.

So good luck replicating that.

 

[Abraxas]

It's not about wages now in my opinion. If it becomes about blowing Liverpool out of the water with wages just to secure a signature, you let him go. Painful but necessary.

It's more about ETH getting in players ear, pitching his style, making the player feel important. Let the club's size, history (and yes generous wage package) do the rest.

At the end of the day there are clubs in a better sporting position than us that are able to offer similar money, we have to accept that because there aren't 5 players on this planet that can improve us. No need to hit the panic button over individuals. If the only reason you get them is you offer 80k more, it doesn't bode well. We need to start building a climate where wages are part of the package, not the ace in the hole.

 

[Deleted 112447]

No they are. I’m not taking that away from us. Our current problem is we don’t have Champions League. Therefore we have to provide extra security for that.

Sure. For a young player though I doubt it's as big of a problem then say a 28 or 30 year old. We were able to get Pogba and even Zlatan without CL football so it's doable either way provided we can sell the potential well enough. ETH should be able to do that.

 

[Deleted 112447]

Liverpool hit the jackpot with a perfect conflation of talent coming through the ranks and players who people doubted (and therefore didn't touch) absolutely maximising their talent. Mane, Henderson and Salah, in particular. Robertson, and particularly Trent-Alexander, are once a generation players that they themselves wouldn't find again.

Liverpool also only went to the stratospheric level when they finished off their build with one of the most expensive keeper and defender combinations in history, who many doubted and questioned at the time, particularly for the outlay.

So good luck replicating that.

I agree. A lot of unlikely things happened all at once to have the results that they had. It can't be replicated to that level IMO and not even they will turn so many good players to WC all at once.

 

[Fortitude]

It's not about wages now in my opinion. If it becomes about blowing Liverpool out of the water with wages just to secure a signature, you let him go. Painful but necessary.

It's more about ETH getting in players ear, pitching his style, making the player feel important. Let the club's size, history (and yes generous wage package) do the rest.

At the end of the day there are clubs in a better sporting position than us that are able to offer similar money, we have to accept that because there aren't 5 players on this planet that can improve us. No need to hit the panic button over individuals. If the only reason you get them is you offer 80k more, it doesn't bode well. We need to start building a climate where wages are part of the package, not the ace in the hole.

I think one of the major changes we need to make is in renewals and how we go about our day-to-day business. A Tchouameni isn't ten a penny, and therefore becomes one of the exceptions, not the rule, but what is done to keep the wage in line, is not renew it willy nilly, unless the player transcends and becomes a bona fide world class performer.

Tchouameni is to midfield what Haaland (or any up and coming special forward) is to attack. You aren't going to run into this predicament non-stop during any transfer window. If he isn't attainable, you don't flippantly need to move on to the next one offering anything like the same package. The clubs that are in for these talents dictate their standing and what you have to compete with. The net widens considerably outside the special ones and so too does what you have to do to get them through the door.

 

[Smores]

Ah yes signing another youngster onto massive wages, what could go wrong.

People are getting impatient, you don't rebulld by throwing expensive players into a shit team because they'll just struggle. We need to raise our standard through smart reliable signings and then go ahead and spend big on promising talent.

 

[Bebestation]

Liverpool hit the jackpot with a perfect conflation of talent coming through the ranks and players who people doubted (and therefore didn't touch) absolutely maximising their talent. Mane, Henderson and Salah, in particular. Robertson, and particularly Trent-Alexander, are once a generation players that they themselves wouldn't find again.

Liverpool also only went to the stratospheric level when they finished off their build with one of the most expensive keeper and defender combinations in history, who many doubted and questioned at the time, particularly for the outlay.

So good luck replicating that.

This is all down to the manager in my opinion.

For example, TAA would not be viewed as highly if he didn't play through Klopp.

The manager is able to improve players and make a good player look great and a great players arguably look legendary.

 

[RedC]

Liverpool hit the jackpot with a perfect conflation of talent coming through the ranks and players who people doubted (and therefore didn't touch) absolutely maximising their talent. Mane, Henderson and Salah, in particular. Robertson, and particularly Trent-Alexander, are once a generation players that they themselves wouldn't find again.

Liverpool also only went to the stratospheric level when they finished off their build with one of the most expensive keeper and defender combinations in history, who many doubted and questioned at the time, particularly for the outlay.

So good luck replicating that.

Right, so you think that Liverpool assembling an excellent squad that consists of many players that were not the most promising in the world in their position, and therefor not expecting crazy wages, is completely down to blind luck, and has nothing to do with good work at the board level, coupled with good management to maximise their performances? Makes sense.

 

[Deleted 112447]

This is all down to the manager in my opinion.

For example, TAA would not be viewed as highly if he didn't play through Klopp.

The manager is able to improve players and make a good player look great and a great players arguably look legendary.

If that were true Klopp wouldn't have needed to change almost the entire first 11 or Pep buy 45 full backs Coaching is not magic; the players need to fit the system and be great professionals with fantastic qualities to succeed.

 

[croadyman]

It's not about wages now in my opinion. If it becomes about blowing Liverpool out of the water with wages just to secure a signature, you let him go. Painful but necessary.

It's more about ETH getting in players ear, pitching his style, making the player feel important. Let the club's size, history (and yes generous wage package) do the rest.

At the end of the day there are clubs in a better sporting position than us that are able to offer similar money, we have to accept that because there aren't 5 players on this planet that can improve us. No need to hit the panic button over individuals. If the only reason you get them is you offer 80k more, it doesn't bode well. We need to start building a climate where wages are part of the package, not the ace in the hole.

You have absolutely nailed it there

 

[Bebestation]

If that were true Klopp wouldn't have needed to change almost the entire first 11 or Pep buy 45 full backs Coaching is not magic; the players need to fit the system and be great professionals with fantastic qualities to succeed.

I mean sure but why not change it when you can?

He was getting players like Karius, Lovren, Chamberlain in to CL finals.

People weren't thinking so highly of Henderson and Milner before Klopp.

I'm not really writing off these players - just Klopp was able to get average players be good, good to great and over time all he has left is a team that looks great under him.

I mean I even look at TAA. Everyone talks about how his defending is not good - but how often does it really get penetrated when he is playing for Liverpool?

Then I watch him for England and a completely different manager and style - he hardly looks all that great attackingwise compared to what he produces for Liverpool.

 

[Cassidy]

Liverpool hit the jackpot with a perfect conflation of talent coming through the ranks and players who people doubted (and therefore didn't touch) absolutely maximising their talent. Mane, Henderson and Salah, in particular. Robertson, and particularly Trent-Alexander, are once a generation players that they themselves wouldn't find again.

Liverpool also only went to the stratospheric level when they finished off their build with one of the most expensive keeper and defender combinations in history, who many doubted and questioned at the time, particularly for the outlay.

So good luck replicating that.

Plenty of teams have. You do not need to go for the big money players straight away. We also do not need to win the title next season

 

[Fortitude]

Right, so you think that Liverpool assembling an excellent squad that consists of many players that were not the most promising in the world in their position, and therefor not expecting crazy wages, is completely down to blind luck, and has nothing to do with good work at the board level, coupled with good management to maximise their performances? Makes sense.

So you think they themselves could replicate it? There was no use of the word luck in my post except for anyone thinking that's a formula as opposed to a perfect conflation of events literally topped off with massive expense, which you've conveniently omitted from the rebuttal.

Of course everything marries together, but perfect storms, are perfect storms because they are improbable.

 

[Cassidy]

No they are. I’m not taking that away from us. Our current problem is we don’t have Champions League. Therefore we have to provide extra security for that.

No we just need to secure champions league next season and not think short term. Build something which will last, not make problems for yourselves in the future by signings players who are motivated primarly by the fact you paid them more.

If being a key part in making United one of the best clubs in the world again doesn’t float his boat, then he isn’t the player we need. Get someone else who is young and hungry and plan for who we can get next summer once we are back in the UCL

 

[gajender]

Right, so you think that Liverpool assembling an excellent squad that consists of many players that were not the most promising in the world in their position, and therefor not expecting crazy wages, is completely down to blind luck, and has nothing to do with good work at the board level, coupled with good management to maximise their performances? Makes sense.

Liverpool wage bill according to their own published accounts is higher than United and their Wages to Turnover ratio is also higher than United so the notion that they have somehow assembled a team on low wages doesn't hold scrutiny but somehow media narrative have convinced gullible people otherwise .
It just that United have wasted money without much to show in terms of success which makes it some what easy target .

 

[Fortitude]

This is all down to the manager in my opinion.

For example, TAA would not be viewed as highly if he didn't play through Klopp.

The manager is able to improve players and make a good player look great and a great players arguably look legendary.

TAA has a level of technique that is practically unheard of in a full-back; even if he were not destined to play there under another manager, his base talents would be clear and evident. This kind of player comes along once in a blue moon, but would cost an astronomical amount to purchase in an open market. That is not a normal circumstance and has aided Liverpool tremendously.

 

[Mainoldo]

Sure. For a young player though I doubt it's as big of a problem then say a 28 or 30 year old. We were able to get Pogba and even Zlatan without CL football so it's doable either way provided we can sell the potential well enough. ETH should be able to do that.

Well goes back to the original point. We offered them good deals. Basically what we would have to do now. I have no issue with it as I trust this manager and his system.

 

[Mainoldo]

Liverpool wage bill according to their own published accounts is higher than United and their Wages to Turnover ratio is also higher than United so the notion that they have somehow assembled a team on low wages doesn't hold scrutiny but somehow media narrative have convinced gullible people otherwise .
It just that United have wasted money without much to show in terms of success which makes it some what easy target .

Is that taking into account bonuses? Maybe fact check yourself.