I'm not a huge fan of the popularity of this derogatory way to label players. "Scan vote winner", as if Matthäus never did anything to deserve it. You could also say Maradona is a "scan vote winner", which is correct but in no way unfair.
Auction Draft QF3 : VivaCrappy vs Annahnomoss
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
I'm not a huge fan of the popularity of this derogatory way to label players. "Scan vote winner", as if Matthäus never did anything to deserve it. You could also say Maradona is a "scan vote winner", which is correct but in no way unfair.
I don't quite understand why you assume Sammer is running all the way to the fullback position. Surely it's Ferrara/Vierchowod covering if needs be and Sammer covering them at CB? What's so unfamiliar about that?
I think the term refers to players who receives more credit than their actual abilities deserves. However good they were has nothing to do with the label. Matthaus I think gets too highly rated defensively in compared to his outstanding offense for example.
I've said Sammer will be operating between LCB and RCB, basically walking as far out as to each end of the penalty box in terms of side-ways movement. So if Lizarazu has the ball, Sammer will be a RCB already when Boniek gets the ball, this so he can use his interceptions and be as involved as possible.
Most of the game Boniek will be making runs freely though which will be what Sammer's number one priority is to handle. As if he does I can leave Lizarazu up against Zanetti and feel confident as it is.
I'm not underrating Ferrara here, he certainly fits the bill, all I'm saying is that not a single other player in that side would get in here, bar Ruggeri and, stylistically, it would have to be ahead of Ferrara not Vierchowod. Ruggeri was better though, aerially, with ball at feet, and also a cnut to boot.
@Balu, other than getting Baresi for Sammer, don't you get the feeling Annah may have ------ -----?
I think I know what anto censored there.Remember watching a goal where Diego gave a cross with his head (
Edit : found it.
I would be miffed as well, cracking finish.
I'm not underrating Ferrara here, he certainly fits the bill, all I'm saying is that not a single other player in that side would get in here, bar Ruggeri and, stylistically, it would have to be ahead of Ferrara not Vierchowod. Ruggeri was better though, aerially, with ball at feet, and also a cnut to boot.
@Balu, other than getting Baresi for Sammer, don't you get the feeling Annah may have peaked early?
Wait what the hell did you just say? You better take that back.
On a serious note, I have peaked early no doubt about it. I can survive another round but in terms of how good I will be in comparison to my opponents I think this is my best round by far. Picking up Enrique, Brehme, Ferrara and Zanetti I basically got every player I could wish for except Seedorf and Baresi.So your CBs are staying put and Sammer is running back and forth llike a mad man? I can see why Viva keeps banging on about it. In Ferrara you have a proper RB who would be far more comfortable as RCB/covering Zanetti, but no let's have Sammer run around like a headless chicken from one end of the box to the other. Imagine him in that game we tried 80+ crosses
What the hell.
U played mathaus in a midfield trio of didi and Charlton iirc. He was more or less playing in a purely defensive role n now u have the cheek to say he is defensively overrated
Wait what the hell did you just say? You better take that back.
Oi! Scramble that back, I was looking forward to Balu spending another six months working it out, studying Morse code, etc.
So your CBs are staying put and Sammer is running back and forth llike a mad man? I can see why Viva keeps banging on about it. In Ferrara you have a proper RB who would be far more comfortable as RCB/covering Zanetti, but no let's have Sammer run around like a headless chicken from one end of the box to the other. Imagine him in that game we tried 80+ crosses
Like I said most of the game Boniek will be moving out of his position looking for space to make a run in to which is something that could open up any defense. So Sammer will be the one following him around to make sure he doesn't suddenly find a run on the right in front of Conti uncovered or through the middle behind the CB pairing.
It won't be a man marking job by any means, just that if Boniek moves away from his left wing there is no need for Sammer to be there. If Boniek then moves behind Brehme, Sammer will of course spot the run and make sure Boniek won't be free if he gets the ball.
Sammer's movement to each side will be done when the opponent switches side in a regular way, after a brilliant cross field ball from Lizarazu to Conti he will of course remain in his LCB role for the cross or play.
I didn't mean it in a derogatory manner. Just meant that you would introduce a few new issues in an already congested discussion.
No doubt he was far from playing in his ideal position and role in that game, I believe it was made quite clear.
As claimed by Annah, not an assumption
That's not the point. Point was if he was/is capable of playing that role.
Anyway it is futile discussion, he is not playing the sitting DM role here. His offense would be limited here due to Diego not due to his position.
That seems incredibly confusing. I understand the bit about how Boniek will move around probing, and that's precisely why Sammer is sweeping, to close up shop wherever Boniek may seem to find a breakthrough. Other than that he is covering the CBs when THEY move out to the flank to cover a fullback tied up front (not that Zanetti or Brehme will make a regular balls up of their attacking runs).
i.e. your first paragraph is spot on, the second hints at an entirely diffferent job.
I've never said he wasn't capable of playing a defensive role? You came with that assumption based on a very different statement. I said Matthaus defensive abilities are often overrated, and his offensive ones underrated. I would rather have Rijkaard for a defensive box to box role - than Matthaus. Funnily enough I'd say Rijkaard's offensive abilities are underrated.
Not sure how it turns in to "Matthaus can't play a defensive role" all of a sudden though. He clearly can, he played sweeper/Libero as well.
Without getting into the "proven and historical" debate again, I think Annah's strong point number one is precisely what has been mentioned here. He has what I feel many fantasy sides featuring Maradona lack, namely the set-up in which he had his arguably greatest moments. This is the '86 formation - but pretty much every player in that side has been upgraded. It's an incredible selling point, to put it short and sweet. To defeat this side I think you need to - bizarre as it sounds - ignore Maradona and just try to outscore your opponent. That can be done. The ideal side for Maradona is a side that doesn't contain any other attacker near his level. Therein lies an opportunity, one might say. But you need a ridiculous amount of offensive quality in order to pull that off, needless to say.
I think I mentioned once, that Annah basically played post injury '94 Matthäus in the worldcup draft, not that anyone cared though. He kept Cruyff and Neeskens in his pocket anyway, while Annah's weak centerbacks weren't troubled at all against my total football theme, because I had no striker
. So Annah actually has a point about Matthäus being a 'huge scan vote winner'. He's pretty much never played in his Ballon d'Or winning role, yet still seen as the ultimate midfielder. It's a bit weird. Annah just made great use of it in the worldcup draft.Point about Van Basten being overlooked last raised by Viva is very much valid, it comes down to personal preference I guess but bar Ronaldo no other striker in this draft can claim to be his equal or better.
This video
pretty much shows the completeness of his skill sets. No fancy trickery but he scores all sorts of goals here and most importantly getting in between multiple defenders to control all sorts of crosses and dispatch it to the goal.
He is one of those players who can fit in any kind of team you draw up.
This video
pretty much shows the completeness of his skill sets. No fancy trickery but he scores all sorts of goals here and most importantly getting in between multiple defenders to control all sorts of crosses and dispatch it to the goal.
He is one of those players who can fit in any kind of team you draw up.
TBF that kind of argmument renders a draft pointless IMO. Put Diego in 86 set up and it's over is a facetious argument. It is a plus of course but u can not assume it to be the end of it all.
Anyway this is pretty much over. I will be back later to have some fun with the formation now.
Fell bad for Viva, he was excited for this team. I knew we were never going to get past Diego in his 86 set up
I am just trying to portray his movement, so it isn't confused with him standing in the middle of Vierchowod and Ferrara all the game. They form a 4 man defensive line, with Sammer sweeping the danger areas of the moment constantly.
So if Boniek is making a run, Sammer won't stay between Ferrara and Vierchowod, he will continue covering behind them even if it puts him in a LCB/RCB position.
He will be moving constantly towards the area he believes is the most dangerous, intercepting balls by taking steps forward in which case he would be best of as a RCB more often than not as Vierchowod is outstanding at interceptions as well so taking his job won't be necessary. His role will change the entire game depending on the current situation - just trying to portray that he isn't limited to staying centrally in the middle of Vierchowod/Ferrara all the game. He will be probing back and forth all game, the defense doesn't rely on him being anywhere - so he will be a bonus where he is.
I think I mentioned once, that Annah basically played post injury '94 Matthäus in the worldcup draft, not that anyone cared though. He kept Cruyff and Neeskens in his pocket anyway, while Annah's weak centerbacks weren't troubled at all against my total football theme, because I had no striker
I agree, it is even so that if you do play him in his favoured role you are going to run in to troubles when you face Pele and Maradona as AM's. A bit of a dead role, which is why we decided AM's should cost more TP points than offensive CM's even if they are doing very similar things.
I think I mentioned once, that Annah basically played post injury '94 Matthäus in the worldcup draft, not that anyone cared though. He kept Cruyff and Neeskens in his pocket anyway, while Annah's weak centerbacks weren't troubled at all against my total football theme, because I had no striker
Indeed, and latching on to Chester's point above, VC should have ignored man-marking Maradona, played another water-carrier alongside Redondo to keep things tidy at the back on a zonal basis, and ditch Riquelme to give Matthäus that role. Actually, didn't they have Tigana? That's even better.
He still needs more firepower against that defensive trio, which is why I stressed the beauty of Boniek was not needing two wingers but one popping up where needed. If only they had another stri.... Oh wait!
Now we are talking!
The CB pair is a letdown IMO, but let one of Sagnol or Lizarazu stay back to help them out if needs be. Redondo dictates from deep, Matthäus pulls the strings further up the pitch, Tigana goes back and forth as required, Boniek probes across the frontline and those two upfront can't be given an inch or they'll hand you your arse on a plate.
Not a defo winner, but the other setup looks like a long agony, at least here you are trading blows alll game
Your line-up adds up to 15 TP points though.
That's what I wrote earlier, still think that would have been the best solution.
But yeah, Riquelme is the one who should have been gone, especially with a complete striker like van Basten, two brilliant wingers and Matthäus in the team.
Indeed, and latching on to Chester's point above, VC should have ignored man-marking Maradona, played another water-carrier alongside Redondo to keep things tidy at the back on a zonal basis, and ditch Riquelme to give Matthäus that role. Actually, didn't they have Tigana? That's even better.
Not a defo winner, but the other setup looks like a long agony, at least here you are trading blows alll game
I am 99% certain that Tigana is TP rated.
No one in their right mind would assume he stays put between the others. He is a sweeper and covering defender, that 's all you need to say. The reason we started this whole discussion was it seemed you were asking him to cover either flank when needed, which is manic.
Ah, forgot Tigana was a TP. Yeah, they shouldn't have sold Lucho then, sorted.
Fair enough, just trying to make it more clear.
That kind of argument is hard not to make, though, unless we want to pretend Maradona '86 with a stellar supporting cast isn't, you know, pretty much the best footballer in history in a tailor made set-up. Which means that such a team will be incredibly tough to come up against.
I've always been of the opinion that drafts should impose severe limitations on the managers - if not, you will end up with unplayable teams sooner rather than later. It's the nature of the game. Perhaps we're better off without players who will sway the vote to such an extent - this draft has been better than most in that regard, though. But I'd be interested in doing a draft with extreme limitations, just to see how that pans out. Could work - or it could be dull as feck, without the best players involved, who people love to talk and reminisce about.
I take your point - but it's hard to see how we can avoid such things.
Not optimal, but they could always play Boniek in midfield and have Conti roaming across the frontline, just like they did for Roma. I'd prefer Boniek being the one with the free role, but in the absence of another midfielder... Riquelme is a passenger here anyway, Boniek adds far more to the midfield and the unppredictability when coming forward, while Conti played that exact same role for Italy in 1982.
People who talk about how formations doesn't matter and rather just throw any player in to any formation would enjoy watching that 86 side. As brilliant as they were, they went in to the 86 without playing amazing football winning one in 7 in the friendlies leading up to the WC - regardless of having Maradona in the very same team in a 4-4-2 diamond.
They had been playing quite poorly with that formation for quite some time as well since Bilardo took over. They didn't fully become the Argentina we remember until they changed the system to the 5-3-1-1/3-5-1-1 and started blossoming.
Maradona in the wrong set-up saw Argentina lose or draw to average national teams, with the exact same side that later goes down as an infamous WC winners.
Tactics means a lot, even if there are of course more layers to the story like there always are.
5 votes in between and I am already starting to run out of the manager and regular voters, which is all I will most likely get. After that I am very certain you guys are going on a rampage. As it stands I believe your chances are way higher than mine to win this, would be stupid to conceded defeat when it is 5 votes between and and this much left.
We've seen bigger comebacks the last hour than a 5 point lead.
Agree. It's always the same bloody faces at the end of the day, invariably. Where the TPs have helped is in giving more importance to the system and players that are suited to it, which I'm all for. It's still difficult though because you can't get much harsher than this, I made the simplest of changes to VCs lineup only to find Tigana is TP rated, feck knows why when someone like Effenberg isn't.
It would be a bit dull if it is more exacting because I frankly don't see people going much further than paying lip service to the less notorious players, however magnificent they were. The country quota was a good one and should be revisited. One per country was a bit much, but all-Italian backlines seem to work like kryptonite even against those that managed to beat them in their heyday (Papin and Savicevic are apparently having a mare as we speak, I would swear they both did pretty well in Europe in the early 90s!).
I think any pretty harsh limitation will be positive for the draft. It doesn't have to be the most thought out or supposed to be included in every draft, but as long as it forces some restraints. I think what Chester has proposed will be very interesting, very strict in terms of the player pool. Or what you had in mind yourself, seems very different too.
Just watched this video!.. feck.. just reminded of some of the angles MVB scored from.
Just watched this video!.. feck.. just reminded of some of the angles MVB scored from.
He reminds me so much of RVP the way he has those Fifa 1997 angles where you always score per default if you shoot there. He deserves all the credit he can get, but like Klinsmann who isn't primarily a dribbling striker either they rarely get that draft credit.
He is incredibly dangerous when he carries the ball from deep and unleashes that shot.