Auction Draft QF3 : VivaCrappy vs Annahnomoss

[Annahnomoss]

I agree with your OP that Ayala and Adams are perfect against Klinsmann, no doubt about it. Their strength and no-nonsense defending will suit him well, but that is something Maradona will thrive on facing. Against Maradona you would have want fast CB's who are great in 1 vs 1's and rarely foul the opponents.

Maradona will have as much of a field day against Ayala and Adams as they will against Klinsmann. Of course when Maradona approaches them with the ball at their feet they will have to leave Klinsmann alone which will free up space for him to make a run behind them. He will also be looking to bully the full-backs for crosses rather than the centre backs as that is a much bigger chance for him.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I don't think our defensive line will be deep hence wrote deep-ish. It won't be as high as a possession team play or deep as a counter team plays, because our team has the weapons to do both. We will more of a counter attacking team in order to get the least of Maradona, because letting him counter will be madness.



Riquleme isn't defending, he's pressing. There's a big difference. With the lack of offensive threat from you're wings, I can allow Boniek & Conti to go to the middle when I don't have the ball, than you get a pressing trio in the middle of Boniek-Riquelme-Conti, really making it hard for Sammer/Mendieta to play the ball like they want, forcing them to push it higher up.

When did Riquelme ever do a defensive job which consisted of running non-stop? I high press requires a great defensive work rate and effort from the player.

Also, I am fine with your tactical decision of leaving Brehme VS Sagnol and Zanetti vs Lizarazu - as you don't have a central midfielder to follow my CM's runs - it will leave great chances out wide when Luis Enrique becomes the winger/just moves out wide and doubles up on Sagnol - or when Mendieta and Zanetti to the same on the other side. I can't imagine a better way for them to use the fact that they are comfortable going wide and staying centrally.

Matthaus will really be needing to clone himself here to be at several places at once.

 

[crappycraperson]

@crappycraperson and @VivaJanuzaj , could you elaborate on this a bit? I'm far from a tactics mastermind, but a high press and a deep defensive line sounds like it'll leave acres of space in midfield, which is suicidal against Maradona.

It came out wrong. It is not the high press tactic you have seen from Barca.

Riquelme would be asked to press Deschamps so that he is not free on the ball or free to run forward as asked by Annah in his b2b role. Van Basten would try to make sure Sammer does not freely play make from the deep. Boniek and Conti in defensive phase would stay up but as Viva said they would tuck in a bit to be LAM/RAM instead of pure wingers. This would be done to further congest the space or press either of Mendieta or Enrique if they drop deep in similar area. The goal of putting Redondo on Diego was precisely to force Annah to use his other CMs rather than put all his eggs in one basket. Lothar would be responsible to track any runs from Mendieta or Luiz Enrique , he essentially has the free MF role here. And is surely intelligent enough to play it.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

It came out wrong. It is not the high press tactic you have seen from Barca.

Riquelme would be asked to press Deschamps so that he is not free on the ball or free to run forward as asked by Annah in his b2b role. Van Basten would try to make sure Sammer does not freely play make from the deep. Boniek and Conti in defensive phase would stay up but as Viva said they would tuck in a bit to be LAM/RAM instead of pure wingers. This would be done to further congest the space or press either of Mendieta or Enrique if they drop deep in similar area. The goal of putting Redondo on Diego was precisely to force Annah to use his other CMs rather than put all his eggs in one basket. Lothar would be responsible to track any runs from Mendieta or Luiz Enrique , he essentially has the free MF role here. And is surely intelligent enough to play it.

Aye, I knew you weren't going for the crazy Guardola-style high press but that's a good clarification.

 

[Annahnomoss]

He has to track two players running at different directions if they want to. Also I have never mentioned Sammer play-making from deep, I have Vierchowod and Ferrara next to him and they are all brilliant, especially Vierchowod. So I don't rely at all on Sammer doing any play-making, I am equally well of with Vierchowod.

There is no way Riquelme will be tracking and getting in front of Deschamps if he goes on a run forward, if Riquelme had that ability in him he would be known for his brilliant defensive work-rate and intelligence which he isn't. That is a job which is as hard as it gets for an AM, tracking a box to box midfielders run.

Just to note, Deschamps won't be making offensive box to box runs all the time, only when either a full-back or one of the other CM's are behind him and covering his position. In which case there is no chance Riquelme of all AM's will be tracking back towards his defensive line.

Riquelme is a monster of a playmaker, but had he had this top notch defensive ability you guys are requesting from him - he'd be one of the very best ever.

 

[crappycraperson]

My last comment would be that if Diego being a footballing god who will out dribble players like Redondo and Matthaus and couple of defenders to the goal, then the draft is pointless since I can't think of a better MF pair to control the central area against Diego. Let's just have a final between Messi and Maradona's team and have at it!

Anyway Details tactics to stop Diego

Spoiler

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[VivaJanuzaj]

I will take a couple of minutes to rephrase our tactics so people will understand it:

When Annah has the ball:

• Team Annah has no wide threat. Both Zanetti and Brehme will have to push in order to create width for team Annah(which he doesn't have at all). Since their attacking threat isn't big, Boniek and Conti don't need to move back.
• Redondo is sitting on Maradona, no matter how great was Diego, the best DM of all time will probably limit his influence in some matter. Lets not make a superhuman of Maradona please, he'll beat Redondo several times, but there isn't a better player to limit him.
• Pressing: Yes, we will press with our midfield, Like I said, Riquelme isn't there to defend, he's there to press, and with Boniek and Conti not needing to defend the wings, they will go a little more to the middle. This trio(JRR-Conti-Boniek)'s job will be to not give Sammer and Mendieta space. 3 midfielders against 2 midfielders? I think we're doing good there. Without Sammer/Mendieta to send the ball long to Maradona, Annah's strength in attack will be much smaller.
• Luis Enrique will be Matthaus' job, when he goes forward, Matthaus is with him, when he doesn't the trio will help with him, and Matthaus is free to deal with Mendieta if he's going forward, or with Maradona too.

When we have the ball:

• We counter! - yes, we are built to counter attack Annah, like I said earlier, because Zanetti and Brehme will HAVE to go forward or else Annah will never score(no threat whatsoever from wings), Boniek & Conti will be there to hurt. If Deschamps or Sammer are too busy with Riquelme, you get Boniek - van Basten - Conti against three defenders. I like our odds.

 

[Annahnomoss]

You are playing a one man central midfield, that is absolutely crazy as you have your other CM man marking Maradona. Redondo isn't a man marker, he was known for his ability on the ball more than off the ball. Better man markers tried to man mark Maradona, in much better set-ups than your 1 CM set-up and failed.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Anyway Details tactics to stop Diego

Spoiler

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=

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

This is getting tiring. Annah himself admitted that Klinsmann is facing defenders perfect of defending against him.
There is no attacking threat from Annah besides, apparently, god. And there's no way of stopping him, not even with the best two CMs in history.

 

[crappycraperson]

You are playing a one man central midfield, that is absolutely crazy as you have your other CM man marking Maradona. Redondo isn't a man marker, he was known for his ability on the ball more than off the ball. Better man markers tried to man mark Maradona, in much better set-ups than your 1 CM set-up and failed.

Well they do call Matthaus one man MF

We actually never used the word 'man mark' single time our write up. What was said though is that Redondo will use to limit the space for Diego. That does not mean he will follow him to the half line to stop getting the ball. It means stopping him from dribbling his way to the goal or not giving him any space to play a ball through. If he has to go deep to ping balls from there, that's half the battle won.

 

[crappycraperson]

This is getting tiring. Annah himself admitted that Klinsmann is facing defenders perfect of defending against him.
There is no attacking threat from Annah besides, apparently, god. And there's no way of stopping him, not even with the best two CMs in history.

It's fine mate. Keep your spirits high. I am defo off now (for the third time ) PM me when you go offline!

 

[Annahnomoss]

"When Annah has the ball:

• Team Annah has no wide threat. Both Zanetti and Brehme will have to push in order to create width for team Annah(which he doesn't have at all). Since their attacking threat isn't big, Boniek and Conti don't need to move back."
  
  I have the best attacking full-backs in the draft, together with a diamond where the RCM is Mendieta and the LCM is Luis Enrique. Both of whom are perfectly comfortable at providing width, meaning if Conti and Boniek stays ready for a counter - I will be doubling up out wide against their full-backs at any time in the game I want.
  
  
• Redondo is sitting on Maradona, no matter how great was Diego, the best DM of all time will probably limit his influence in some matter. Wherever Maradona goes, Redondo goes. Lets not make a superhuman of Maradona please, he'll beat Redondo several times, but there isn't a better player to limit him.
  
  Redondo isn't the best DM of all time, and far from it if you are talking defensively. He was never known for man marking out players but rather for his ability on the ball. When Redondo man marks Maradona, Diego will still get first to receive the passes as he will act by changing direction and Redondo will have to react - leaving him a second behind always.
  
  When he man marks Maradona, Matthaus is playing as the ONLY cm, which is something I've never heard of before - a one CM tactic. The best man markers in history has been put to man mark Maradona, with great set-ups around them packed with great defensive players - and failed. The man marking and best defensive era of possibly all time is when Maradona played and shined.
  
• 
  
• Luis Enrique will be Matthaus' job, when he goes forward, Matthaus is with him, when he doesn't the trio will help with him, and Matthaus is free to deal with Mendieta if he's going forward, or with Maradona too.

This just sounds ridiculous, Matthaus job is to take care of Mendieta and Enrique? He can choose one, and leave the other free but he can't possibly clone himself and mark out two players at once.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

"When Annah has the ball:

• Team Annah has no wide threat. Both Zanetti and Brehme will have to push in order to create width for team Annah(which he doesn't have at all). Since their attacking threat isn't big, Boniek and Conti don't need to move back."
  
  I have the best attacking full-backs in the draft, together with a diamond where the RCM is Mendieta and the LCM is Luis Enrique. Both of whom are perfectly comfortable at providing width, meaning if Conti and Boniek stays ready for a counter - I will be doubling up out wide against their full-backs at any time in the game I want.
  
  
• Redondo is sitting on Maradona, no matter how great was Diego, the best DM of all time will probably limit his influence in some matter. Wherever Maradona goes, Redondo goes. Lets not make a superhuman of Maradona please, he'll beat Redondo several times, but there isn't a better player to limit him.
  
  Redondo isn't the best DM of all time, and far from it if you are talking defensively. He was never known for man marking out players but rather for his ability on the ball. When Redondo man marks Maradona, Diego will still get first to receive the passes as he will act by changing direction and Redondo will have to react - leaving him a second behind always.
  
  When he man marks Maradona, Matthaus is playing as the ONLY cm, which is something I've never heard of before - a one CM tactic. The best man markers in history has been put to man mark Maradona, with great set-ups around them packed with great defensive players - and failed. The man marking and best defensive era of possibly all time is when Maradona played and shined.
  
• 
  
• Luis Enrique will be Matthaus' job, when he goes forward, Matthaus is with him, when he doesn't the trio will help with him, and Matthaus is free to deal with Mendieta if he's going forward, or with Maradona too.

This just sounds ridiculous, Matthaus job is to take care of Mendieta and Enrique? He can choose one, and leave the other free but he can't possibly clone himself and mark out two players at once.

1. You won't be doubling on them, because I have the players to follow them, if either goes wide, I have Matthaus to follow them around. And the fact that tactically Boniek & Conti won't defend doesn't mean they won't be able to go back if Mendieta or Lucho are losing their markers.

2. I've never said that Maradona will be stopped by Redondo, I even said he'll beat him several times. Still, Redondo is perfectly capable on doing a job on him.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Well they do call Matthaus one man MF

We actually never used the word 'man mark' single time our write up. What was said though is that Redondo will use to limit the space for Diego. That does not mean he will follow him to the half line to stop getting the ball. It means stopping him from dribbling his way to the goal or not giving him any space to play a ball through. If he has to go deep to ping balls from there, that's half the battle won.

You've stated Redondo's job in defense is to stop Maradona, a player who drifts all over the pitch - who will as often be out wide right or left as he will be centrally or dropping deep(if that area is congested). How on earth does Redondo in any way stop Maradona, if he isn't even defending against him? Isn't Redondo then doing just a regular DCM role and saying his job is to stop Maradona, while Matthaus is told to handle Enrique and Mendieta?

I wonder what happens when Enrique, Mendieta and Maradona all pushes up - one of them is clearly completely free as you have Conti and Boniek not helping out your full backs defensively per your orders - Riquelme who won't do much of a defensive work and van Basten who you have up against Sammer.

Your tactics doesn't add up, when I attack out wide I am one man more. When I attack centrally I am one man more in the midfield. For your own sake you need Conti and Boniek working home - I am happy if you don't make that chance though but would be boring for you.

 

[Annahnomoss]

1. You won't be doubling on them, because I have the players to follow them, if either goes wide, I have Matthaus to follow them around. And the fact that tactically Boniek & Conti won't defend doesn't mean they won't be able to go back if Mendieta or Lucho are losing their markers.

2. I've never said that Maradona will be stopped by Redondo, I even said he'll beat him several times. Still, Redondo is perfectly capable on doing a job on him.

Direct quote from your OP "As said before, Redondo's sole role when Annah has possession is to stop Maradona, than distributing and starting attacks.". So we try it again, Redondo is stopping Maradona, Matthaus is stopping Mendieta and Enrique who are making runs at the same time in different directions?

One of them will have acres of space, and that is while Redondo will never be able to "stop" Maradona so he will be involved in the play as well.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Conti and Boniek will defend according to who you send forward, of course that if you're entire midfield goes forward they'll have to defend a little, that's how football works, I hate when draft people look at it so one-dimensional - he defends against this guy, and him against him, they are either counter or possession. Football is a dynamic game and we have a really really dynamic team.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

1. You won't be doubling on them, because I have the players to follow them, if either goes wide, I have Matthaus to follow them around. And the fact that tactically Boniek & Conti won't defend doesn't mean they won't be able to go back if Mendieta or Lucho are losing their markers.

2. I've never said that Maradona will be stopped by Redondo, I even said he'll beat him several times. Still, Redondo is perfectly capable on doing a job on him.

They'll have their work cut out catching Luis Enrique if he's breaking into your penalty area and they're starting on the halfway line.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

They'll have their work cut out catching Luis Enrique if he's breaking into your penalty area and they're starting on the halfway line.

Let us not forget, that inside the penalty box Klinsmann doesn't ALWAYS needs two CBs on him, if lucho is getting inside the box we have an extra defender, and that's also in an extreme condition where I have no other midfielder to cover him.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Let us not forget, that inside the penalty box Klinsmann doesn't ALWAYS needs two CBs on him, if lucho is getting inside the box we have an extra defender, and that's also in an extreme condition where I have no other midfielder to cover him.

It isn't extreme at all as you have Redondo to stop Maradona, which is a battle Maradona will win hands down and he has proven it against better man markers on a weekly basis. He more often than not played against man markers, some of the best in history, and his successful performances against them is what has earned him the reputation as one of the two best ever in the game. He will put in an even more dominating performance than usually considering he is up against Redondo who isn't a top tier man marker by any regards.

Then Matthaus is supposed to clone-mark Enrique and Mendieta who will make runs in different directions, leaving one midfielder free in every attack. That midfielder can choose to double up out wide with Brehme/Zanetti on your full-backs or use the space centrally if Maradona comes blasting with Redondo behind him. In case Ayala and Adams are pretty perfect for Maradona to play against and I would bet my money on Maradona in those situations who made a fool of some of the best defenders in history at times.

 

[Balu]

This is one hell of a start to the game .

Anyone else got the feeling that Matthäus is better suited to mark Maradona than Redondo? The main reason, why it hurt Germany so much was that we completely lost control in midfield with too many defensive players around him. It wasn't that Matthäus did a bad job at it, the team just needed him doing something else way way more. But with Redondo and Riquelme here in midfield, that's more than enough to make up for loosing Matthäus' impact in attack.

While I like the Redondo + Matthäus midfield way more than the one with Tigana, I think it's still Riquelme who's surplus in this team. You could bring in a poor defensive man-marker to stay on Maradona's feet all game (like Buchwald in '90) and have more than enough impact going forward with Redondo, Matthäus, Conti and Boniek. If you play defensive tactics, don't play too many attackers and expect them to defend. Especially in a pressing/quick transition team, you usually don't need someone like Riquelme. Like Klopp said about his Dortmund side 'winning the ball everywhere on the pitch is our playmaker'. There's some truth to it.

Right now, I think Lucho is the one most likely to score for Annah.

On the other side, Viva & Crappy have too much quality upfront to not score. Sammer has his work cut out here to help out against those wings which makes it almost impossible to stop Van Basten and Riquelme with Matthäus joining them in the middle.

I think I like Viva/Crappy's team slightly better while I think Annah got the tactics right. Not sure who to vote for at the moment.

 

[Balu]

It isn't extreme at all as you have Redondo to stop Maradona, which is a battle Maradona will win hands down and he has proven it against better man markers on a weekly basis. He more often than not played against man markers, some of the best in history, and his successful performances against them is what has earned him the reputation as one of the two best ever in the game. He will put in an even more dominating performance than usually considering he is up against Redondo who isn't a top tier man marker by any regards.

I think you exaggerate his performances in Italy. He wasn't unstoppable on a weekly basis, he was just less stoppable than everyone else in Italy in the 80's. When Napoli won the league in '87, he scored 10 goals and Napoli overall scored 41 goals in 30 games, winning 15 and drawing 12. Most of the time, no attacking player dominated games back then at all and often enough a freekick decided the game.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I agree that Matthaus would do a much much better job man marking, the issue is that it leaves a gaping hole anyhow with just one central midfielder there with his four offensive players already contributing too little defensively. Even then Matthaus man marking wasn't enough to stop Maradona's Argentina from scoring three goals against a brilliant German defense with two all-time greats in Forster and Brehme.

The Germans overall had much more individual quality than Argentina that day, but Maradona's movement left gaps for his team to score 3 goals against a team superior in every regard. Maradona himself of course still acted as a playmaker and orchestrator setting up the the last goal himself.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think you exaggerate his performances in Italy. He wasn't unstoppable on a weekly basis, he was just less stoppable than everyone else in Italy in the 80's. When Napoli won the league in '87, he scored 10 goals and Napoli overall scored 41 goals in 30 games, winning 15 and drawing 12. Most of the time, no attacking player dominated games back then at all and often enough a freekick decided the game.

I am not suggesting he dominated the best man markers in the history, supported by the best defensive era for any league in history. But he successfully performed for Napoli against these sides, rarely - if ever, was he completely shut out from a game in his peak. His performance against these players is what earned him the status as the best/second best player in history.

By then he played for a much worse team with much worse individual quality than best sides in the league had.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I don't doubt Maradona is likely to score/assist once in the game. This is why we chose to make the changes, and instead of playing Lahm and Rio we chose to boost our attack. We'll simply outscore our opponent. we have too much quality upfront not to do it.

 

[Balu]

I agree that Matthaus would do a much much better job man marking, the issue is that it leaves a gaping hole anyhow with just one central midfielder there with his four offensive players already contributing too little defensively. Even then Matthaus man marking wasn't enough to stop Maradona's Argentina from scoring three goals against a brilliant German defense with two all-time greats in Forster and Brehme.

The Germans overall had much more individual quality than Argentina that day, but Maradona's movement left gaps for his team to score 3 goals against a team superior in every regard. Maradona himself of course still acted as a playmaker and orchestrator setting up the the last goal himself.

Not sure that's true. If I remember correctly, Argentina were actually considered favourites before the game. The German team was somewhere inbetween, the new generation not at its peak yet, the old one past it. Only 3 starters from that team would be part of the worldcup winning team 4 years later. And both teams hardly created a lot. Schumacher's feck-up gifted Argentina the first goal after a freekick and at half time we changed the tactics and Matthäus didn't mark Maradona anymore, when he assisted both the 2nd and 3rd goal. We played better in the 2nd half though, it just wasn't enough to win the game.

Spoiler: Highlights final '86

If we had Schuster available, Matthäus could have stayed on Maradona without it hurting the team so much. It would have been a different game .

 

[Annahnomoss]

I don't doubt Maradona is likely to score/assist once in the game. This is why we chose to make the changes, and instead of playing Lahm and Rio we chose to boost our attack. We'll simply outscore our opponent. we have too much quality upfront not to do it.

I don't think you have such an easy route to goal here mate. Deschamps, Ferrara and Vierchowod played together when Juventus won the CL and have a great understanding and fit - here they are brought back in their individual peaks as well which were among the best in their individual positions.

They are also supported by Sammer, who is defensively absolute brilliant and an interception from Sammer or Vierchowod will instantly set up a counter-attack for Maradona the other way. Not to mention if you hit the ball behind my defense I have Vierchowod who is one of the fastest top CB's in history and Manuel Neuer in goal who is incredibly comfortable as a sweeper keeper.

Your fast paced options are extremely risky for you, misplace a pass, a long ball or a cross and suddenly you have Maradona with the bombing runs of my midfield and wing-backs countering in the other direction.

Considering I will have Zanetti and Mendieta and Brehme and Enrique doubling up out wide whenever I want to I have a consistent route to goal centrally and out wide as Boniek and Conti won't defend. van Basten is a striker who does a job on Sammer for no reason and Riquelme doesn't have the tactical discipline and desire to mark Deschamps when he makes runs.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

This is one hell of a start to the game .

Anyone else got the feeling that Matthäus is better suited to mark Maradona than Redondo? The main reason, why it hurt Germany so much was that we completely lost control in midfield with too many defensive players around him. It wasn't that Matthäus did a bad job at it, the team just needed him doing something else way way more. But with Redondo and Riquelme here in midfield, that's more than enough to make up for loosing Matthäus' impact in attack.

While I like the Redondo + Matthäus midfield way more than the one with Tigana, I think it's still Riquelme who's surplus in this team. You could bring in a poor defensive man-marker to stay on Maradona's feet all game (like Buchwald in '90) and have more than enough impact going forward with Redondo, Matthäus, Conti and Boniek. If you play defensive tactics, don't play too many attackers and expect them to defend. Especially in a pressing/quick transition team, you usually don't need someone like Riquelme. Like Klopp said about his Dortmund side 'winning the ball everywhere on the pitch is our playmaker'. There's some truth to it.

Right now, I think Lucho is the one most likely to score for Annah.

On the other side, Viva & Crappy have too much quality upfront to not score. Sammer has his work cut out here to help out against those wings which makes it almost impossible to stop Van Basten and Riquelme with Matthäus joining them in the middle.

I think I like Viva/Crappy's team slightly better while I think Annah got the tactics right. Not sure who to vote for at the moment.

I agree. Having said that I see it as a waste to use either of them as a man-marker on Diego. The problem is that man-marking him is incredibly tempting - how else do you limit his influence? Well, for my money - you focus on defending as a team, leaving units to "deal" with him rather than one man, whose impact on all other aspects of the game will be zero. And when that man is a player of Redondo's ilk, I just think it's a waste. More than any other player in history Maradona is the one who only needs half a chance, half an opening, to create something decisive. You can waste the efforts of one of the best midfielders ever and it won't prevent those moments of magic which Maradona is capable of regardless of who is marking him. Better to focus on your own game - and with the quality of the players we're talking about here, you can do that. Maradona is human - he won't score for fun against defenders of this calibre. So make sure you outscore the opponent - and let Maradona take his chances, so to speak.

More or less random remark, based on what was said above regarding Sammer/Deschamps and Riquelme, i.e. the need to take care of him for either of them, thus creating a three against three situation (Boniek-Van Basten-Conti versus Ferrara-Sammer-Vierchowod). The thing is this, and it's about marking/tracking again, really: staying tightly on Riquelme is a bit of a waste! He won't run around much, so there's no need to keep following him around. Which is the upside. He will, however, create just enough space for himself to control the ball and release a pass. He was exceptionally good at this - as players of his rare ilk always seem to be. It's the Zidane hoodoo, as I like to call it - the ability to seemingly slow down time whenever you're on the ball. And that's the downside - but both the upside and the downside point to the same thing: there's no sense in trying to mark Riquelme out of a match. It's much more effective to stay tightly on the runners he depends on entirely. He can't burst into the box himself in this context - arguably not in any context. If you limit his options, you eliminate him as anything other than someone moving the ball about a bit (which is nice but hardly dangerous).

So, there's no need for either Deschamps or (certainly not) Sammer to watch over Riquelme like a hawk - er, yes, that was the point, I think.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Not sure that's true. If I remember correctly, Argentina were actually considered favourites before the game. The German team was somewhere inbetween, the new generation not at its peak yet, the old one past it. Only 3 starters from that team would be part of the worldcup winning team 4 years later. And both teams hardly created a lot. Schumacher's feck-up gifted Argentina the first goal after a freekick and at half time we changed the tactics and Matthäus didn't mark Maradona anymore, when he assisted both the 2nd and 3rd goal. We played better in the 2nd half though, it just wasn't enough to win the game.

Spoiler: Highlights final '86

If we had Schuster available, Matthäus could have stayed on Maradona without it hurting the team so much. It would have been a different game .

If you removed Maradona from their side they wouldn't have been considered favorites is what I mean. I do think that Matthaus is much better at man marking Maradona, but I believe he is so good you shouldn't waste his abilities on a man marking job. But then again maybe I rate him higher than most. I wouldn't waste anything but a pure man marking genius for that sort of role.

 

[Annahnomoss]

More or less random remark, based on what was said above regarding Sammer/Deschamps and Riquelme, i.e. the need to take care of him for either of them, thus creating a three against three situation (Boniek-Van Basten-Conti versus Ferrara-Sammer-Vierchowod). The thing is this, and it's about marking/tracking again, really: staying tightly on Riquelme is a bit of a waste! He won't run around much, so there's no need to keep following him around. Which is the upside. He will, however, create just enough space for himself to control the ball and release a pass. He was exceptionally good at this - as players of his rare ilk always seem to be. It's the Zidane hoodoo, as I like to call it - the ability to seemingly slow down time whenever you're on the ball. And that's the downside - but both the upside and the downside point to the same thing: there's no sense in trying to mark Riquelme out of a match. It's much more effective to stay tightly on the runners he depends on entirely. He can't burst into the box himself in this context - arguably not in any context. If you limit his options, you eliminate him as anything other than someone moving the ball about a bit (which is nice but hardly dangerous).

So, there's no need for either Deschamps or (certainly not) Sammer to watch over Riquelme like a hawk - er, yes, that was the point, I think.

I agree which is why I won't have Sammer doing that job at all, he will be staying centrally as Ferrara is a comfortable RB if he ever has to move out right while Sammer and Vierchowod then becomes the central pairing. On the other left side Vierchowod will move out wide, also comfortable at doing so with his great pace and near unbeatable 1 vs 1 ability. Leaving Sammer and Ferrara centrally.

Deschamps will nearly always be on the right side of Riquelme, due to the fact that he is assigned by VJ to do that job. The only times Deschamps won't be on Riquelme is like I stated, when Deschamps has made an offensive box to box run and left Riquelme hanging which most likely will have led to a very good chance for me due to another unmarked man running in to space.

That run would only be made if either of the full-backs or one of the CM's covers it, so in case Riquelme receives a ball with his head towards the goal(usually he will have to make a run down in the pitch to get it which allows my team to organize the defense) Brehme or Zanetti will already be ready to cover - and again their flexibility as DM/Sweeper comes in handy.

Like you said the goal is not to try and nick the ball of him as he isn't likely to go on a blasting run and beat my defense, the goal is to nullify his options enough time to allow my defense to organize itself. Zanetti and Brehme will be back incredibly quick especially, even as LWB/RWB's they always did their defensive job great.

 

[Gio]

He is all over the pitch here to be involved as much as possible, so a man marking job(which Matthaus failed doing) will be suicide.

Matthaus did a pretty good job on Maradona in the '86 final. Pretty sure Diego rates him as his toughest opponent. It was only once Forster took over that Maradona started to yield his match-winning influence.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Not saying this is him at a weekly basis, but here he is against the legendary Baresi, Costacurta, Maldini, Tassoti defense, with Rijkaard in front of them.

 

[Gio]

Riquleme isn't defending, he's pressing.

As much as I love the guy, Riquelme couldn't press an olive.

 

[Moby]

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

van Basten isn't getting any credit here. Comfortably a better attacker than Vierchwood/Ferrera are defenders. If it was Romario, Ronaldo or Batigol who are all in the same calibre as he is we would get much more credit.

As much as I love the guy, Riquelme couldn't press an olive.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Matthaus did a pretty good job on Maradona in the '86 final. Pretty sure Diego rates him as his toughest opponent. It was only once Forster took over that Maradona started to yield his match-winning influence.

He did a good job, but Maradona was surely more influential offensively for Argentina than Matthaus was for Germany. The issue here is not only the man marking, it is that the support to afford Redondo "to stop Maradona" isn't there.

Matthaus is then alone in his CM role against Luis Enrique, Mendieta and possible runs from Deschamps. He would need at least one, but preferably two others helping him out there as he can't mark out several people at the same time.

The issue is that van Basten is doing a job on Sammer according to VJ, a Sammer who will be very deep down the pitch which means van Basten's job is not going to help the others much and Vierchowod and Ferrara can continue their role in possession as a CB pairing. Riquelme is told to press Deschamps and tracking his run, a job too big for him so he won't do it - if he had it in him he'd be rated as one of the very best ever. His defense wasn't world-class or anywhere near it, it wasn't his role.

Then Boniek and Conti are ordered to not help his full-backs defensively, so whenever Brehme and Zanetti gets help from Mendieta and Enrique - they will be in a 1 vs 2 situation and it will be available for me all game. You can't afford, in any team, to have 4 players not doing a defensive job - then also a man marker. It is too much space, even without the man marker it is way too much space to handle for two players.

 

[Annahnomoss]

As much as I love the guy, Riquelme couldn't press an olive.

 

[Moby]

van Basten isn't getting any credit here. Comfortably a better attacker than Vierchwood/Ferrera are defenders. If it was Romario, Ronaldo or Batigol who are all in the same calibre as he is we would get much more credit.

There's no way Batigol would have gotten more credit, you can bet on that. As for Romario and Ronaldo, well they offer something different and it depends what qualities people rate more. I think both strikers have been overlooked a tad here. If anything I'd say Klinsmann would be more than a handful for the two CBs. I don't completely agree with both managers saying those two CBs are perfect to handle Klinsi. Sure they would be a good pair to handle his physicality but he was much more than just a big lump up front. His bursts of acceleration in short spaces were absolutely explosive and combined that with his constant movement, he'd be a right nuisance. That is where I think he can trouble those two CBs specially with Diego pulling the strings. And it didn't matter which part of his body struck the ball, it went in like a fecking rocket. Which points to a great shooting technique.

Sorry if it came as I was advertising him, just found the comments on him slightly strange.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

As much as I love the guy, Riquelme couldn't press an olive.

And it's true too. I don't get that part of his job description. You could instruct him to do it - but he'd be completely out of his element.

 

[Annahnomoss]

van Basten isn't getting any credit here. Comfortably a better attacker than Vierchwood/Ferrera are defenders. If it was Romario, Ronaldo or Batigol who are all in the same calibre as he is we would get much more credit.

Nobody is criticizing van Basten here, it is your overall tactic not being balanced as you don't have enough players chipping in for the greater good of the team defensively. It isn't as easy as saying he is better than X and Y so he wins, he is after all up against a proven partnership between Vierchowod and Ferrara - with Sammer sweeping up as well.

Sammer and Vierchowod will be pushing forth to intercept passes while still being covered by the stopper, so any passes towards van Basten centrally will be a possible counter one second later by Maradona and Klinsmann against Ayala and Adams who are worse than Vierchowod and Ferrara individually and not a proven thriving partnership either.