No one argues that we have an elite squad or that our management structure is elite.
Literally no one argues this.
Literally no one argues this.
At what point are we going to acknowledge that we're not an elite side anymore?
- Thread starter Alex99
- Start date
Now this is some real pointless doom and gloom woo woo
We haven’t been dining at the truly elite clubs table for quite some time and our transfer dealings are proof of that. We’re paying over the odds for players that current elite clubs like Madrid, Bayern or city (
) wouldn’t pursue. As we’ve known for a decade, our scouting isn’t up to the standard to make intelligent signings like other clubs around us have.
) wouldn’t pursue. As we’ve known for a decade, our scouting isn’t up to the standard to make intelligent signings like other clubs around us have.Why wouldn’t United be capable of turning it around quickly? Arsenal are now considered as such after 2 sensible transfer windows
I've enjoyed watching football less and less pretty much every season since Ferguson retired.
Been a few peaks and troughs, but the general trend of enjoyment has been down.
Not just United being shit either, but stuff like 115 Charges FC likely getting away with it, the media love-in with Geordie Arabia, the Russia and Qatar world cup bids and now the completely shameless stitch up that is the Saudi world cup, the super league nonsense, a publicly skint Barcelona (that has already dodged a blood doping scandal) somehow spending countless millions on new players and is now embroiled in a scandal relating to match officials, the general existence of this form of PSG, the Saudi league nonsense, etc.
Arsenal are considered an elite club? Or have they had one good season?
Yeah well forgive me for not caring which previous mid-table team is in the top 4 before Christmas. It only happens every year.
For me, the title race hasn't started yet.
No one has said so since 2013 to begin with.
The title is a strawman.
The title is a strawman.
Fair to say it's been acknowledged for some time. We've pretty much been content with securing CL football most seasons since SAF left. I'd argue only the second season under Jose and the summer we signed Varane, Ronaldo and Sancho under Ole has there been any real expectation to do more than get top 4 and even then that expectation didn't last very long.
There are people in this thread, in 2023, saying it. The forum is rife with people arguing that the only (or main) thing holding us back is the manager.
We’re in a coma…
Louis, is that you?!
I’m surprised you were awake to see the patterns of play in LVG Man Utd team. The rest of us fans were asleep
I suppose the problem for me, and you likely concede this too, is I've no trust in the club to have two sensible transfer windows. Maybe Ratcliffe comes in and waves a magic wand and all is golden from here on out but right now that seems unrealistic.
So because it worked out once, somewhat, in 1000 cases, it's the recipe for success. Thankfully even our board isn't clueless enough to try that.
The fun thing about all these Arteta comparisons is that he has won nothing after he was kept (the FA Cup was early in his reign, so not relevant for the long term argument).
I think if you’re still of the belief that we are a top tier elite team…you’ve got problems
sooner accept we’re not the better
elite teams don’t regularly compete in European second tier tournaments
sooner accept we’re not the better
elite teams don’t regularly compete in European second tier tournaments
We've not been for some time. The only Elite thing at the club is the name itself.
Our squad, our structure, our stadium, our training facilities...anything football related ha been left behind some time ago with no sound forward or future planning.
We are an elite business model, making a feck load of coin for a bunch of cnuts who have never risked any of their own readies...that's a genius move.
Our squad, our structure, our stadium, our training facilities...anything football related ha been left behind some time ago with no sound forward or future planning.
We are an elite business model, making a feck load of coin for a bunch of cnuts who have never risked any of their own readies...that's a genius move.
If by style you mean passing the ball sideways and backwards for the whole game then yes he did successfully implement one.
It was complete torture watching us that season. van Gaal had some decent momentum towards the end of the 14/15 season where we went on a run to make top four but then we went backwards the following season and he was very lucky to have not been sacked before Christmas.
Exactly this. With hindsight, every window we've had that we've been excited about has been riddled with crap (often expensive) signings that have offered little to nothing more than the players that they were brought in to replace.
It's also worth pointing out that (while more competitive), Arteta's best league finish currently matches Solskjaer's, and I absolutely would not yet categorise this iteration of Arsenal as "elite".
I get the idea that it was a slow burn to achieving a higher goal, but I also wouldn't class Arsenal as elite. If they finish 4th this season it wouldn't be a massive shock (not that I think they will).
I also don't think there are great arguments for giving any of the previous managers more time (which I referenced in the OP).
Moyes could have maybe been allowed a shot at a second season, but I don't think it changes much. Ditto for van Gaal with a third. Mourinho was a known timebomb, so that was about right. Solskjaer you could maybe argue could have been given the rest of the season to see if he could turn it around, but again, I don't think that changes much.
With Ten Hag, as much as I think he could be doing better with certain things, there is a sense that he could turn it around with Martinez back in the side, and perhaps more importantly, if he can get Casemiro and Mount going when they're back. I wouldn't shed any tears if he was sacked now, and realistically things aren't turning around to any great extent, but we also don't appear to have any other obvious alternatives right now.
The rot started when the glazers took over, and football became a distant second to how much sponsorship on the Manchester United name they could pull in. We only survived until 2013, and we only managed to win the league that year with an ageing squad due to Fergie and Gill, but we were always on a slippery slope from about 2011/12.
We haven't had an elite team since 2008/9 in my opinion.
The first time in 50 + years that I stopped watching United was under LVG reign, some of the most boring football I had ever witnessed.
Of course. Absolutely right. I have no faith in the current setup. Absent Americans and a bunch of bankers. I wouldn’t trust them to manage a club on ‘Football Manager’
But ultimately, if they do get their shit together at some point (ie Ineos eventually buying out Glazers and making the club football focused) Then I really don’t think it would be difficult to get United back to serious title challengers within a year or two
Every fan base has it's share of less than justified opinions, we haven't had the performances to warrant being called an elite club end of story.
Hopefully it'll change with the soon to transpire restructuring of the club.
We are top 6-7 in the league .. maybe. Top 20-30 in the world
We are the Tampabay of the PL.
We are the Tampabay of the PL.
Buddy you are a half a decade too late. No serious UTD fan has been arguing we are in the same tier as Man City, Real Madrid. We all know that we are in the 2nd tier. It's pretty obvious in the transfer market. We get the players that Madrid, City don't want. Sports is defined by eras. And this in this era City have defined this era of English football. And if it continues for another 5 - 10 years, City will surpass UTD in fan appeal. That's just how it goes. We did it to Pool, now City are doing it to us.
I think that's most of it.
It's funny how by trying behave like an elite side with big name shinny signings has made us worse.
Can we go back to how we use to be under fergie of picking tried and tested players off from the sides below in the premier league which Liverpool also took advantage off wjen klopp took over but we seem to have turned our noses up at players that could easily give us a better and more professional 11 than what we have been left with by buying big money flops from abroad (sancho, Antony, Fred, onana, di maria, ronaldo) and from other big prem sides (matic, mata, Mount, sanchez)
Can we go back to how we use to be under fergie of picking tried and tested players off from the sides below in the premier league which Liverpool also took advantage off wjen klopp took over but we seem to have turned our noses up at players that could easily give us a better and more professional 11 than what we have been left with by buying big money flops from abroad (sancho, Antony, Fred, onana, di maria, ronaldo) and from other big prem sides (matic, mata, Mount, sanchez)
If you haven’t realised this yet, I think you might be part of the problem
As an actual side we are not elite, we have too many players that are not of high enough quality. But we are an elite club, we are the biggest club in the world. When people think football they think Manchester United. It’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. We belong at the very top of football and we will get back there, sooner or later.
I acknowledged this fact years ago.
The problem around here is that many people's reactions and expectations for this club simply aren't in line with the reality of the world. Too many of you are still of the mindset of the era when we were, and were expected to be, perennial contenders in the league and in Europe.
We aren't that club anymore, haven't been for some time, and probably won't be for some time. Our true level is somewhere between 5th and 7th. We're a proper Europa League club. Everyone should unlearn the expectations that have come from the history of the club and start looking at things the way supporters of clubs like Tottenham and West Ham do.
The way Villa fans are probably in dreamland right now? That's the way WE should all be feeling if at any point we begin to compete for a top 4 spot.
The sooner everyone embraces our new reality and accepts our realistic station in football, the better off we'll all be. Finishing in the top 6 of the best league in the world is nothing to sneeze at.
The problem around here is that many people's reactions and expectations for this club simply aren't in line with the reality of the world. Too many of you are still of the mindset of the era when we were, and were expected to be, perennial contenders in the league and in Europe.
We aren't that club anymore, haven't been for some time, and probably won't be for some time. Our true level is somewhere between 5th and 7th. We're a proper Europa League club. Everyone should unlearn the expectations that have come from the history of the club and start looking at things the way supporters of clubs like Tottenham and West Ham do.
The way Villa fans are probably in dreamland right now? That's the way WE should all be feeling if at any point we begin to compete for a top 4 spot.
The sooner everyone embraces our new reality and accepts our realistic station in football, the better off we'll all be. Finishing in the top 6 of the best league in the world is nothing to sneeze at.
We haven't been an elite side since SAF retired.
We obviously aren't an "elite" side and nobody claims we are.
If the idea is that we should accept this non-elite status, then no - that makes no sense. Because we are very much still "elite" in theory, that is: in terms of fan base, revenue, etc.
We are horribly under-performing given our status, as we have been ever since SAF retired.
Not sure what the idea is here, actually - but if it's something like: we should just lower our ambitions as fans, because we aren't an "elite" side anymore...that's plain stupid, it makes no sense at all based on objective criteria.
If the idea is that we should accept this non-elite status, then no - that makes no sense. Because we are very much still "elite" in theory, that is: in terms of fan base, revenue, etc.
We are horribly under-performing given our status, as we have been ever since SAF retired.
Not sure what the idea is here, actually - but if it's something like: we should just lower our ambitions as fans, because we aren't an "elite" side anymore...that's plain stupid, it makes no sense at all based on objective criteria.
An elite side may have 1-2 bad seasons not 10 years of constant shame. We've not been an elite club since Sir Alex, we're a commercial club but the only thing elite about this club anymore is its history and its ability to generate money.
We’re an elite name with elite resources that have been disgustingly wasted by a pathetic ownership and piss poor management from a non existent footballing structure that have bought in a collection of individuals, that’s the best way I can sum us up.
Carabao Cup champions 2022/23, they'll never sing that.
That’s actually really sad.I saw a post on social media that was glorifying the best moments, players, matches over the last decade. There was not a single clip from United
The club has failed to go past the quarter finals of the UCL, only been that far twice I believe. The club is not elite.
Another post to just rip our disjointed organization to shreds? I think we all have read a decent amount about how we suck now and have for a while.
This thread is what accurately reflects the view point of most fans. It does not change even if we win today. We are just not good enough. I hope we don't have to play Europa league and we go out today. We have far too many players which are either too raw (Garnacho, Hojlund, Maino) or just not good enough (Antony, Martial, Mount, Lindelof, Mctominay and Dalot). The others are just too inconsistent (Rashford, Bruno and Maguire). Its just so depressing that despite spending 400M Pounds, we have such a shit squad and first team 11.
I don't think anybody can get more out of this side, the aspect which I believe should get Ten Hag fired is, the way he has wasted around 255M on Antony, Mount, Onana and Hojlund. We needed to overhaul the side, we needed more clever signings, some players who were free agents or some players who are in the last year of contract.
CB for example was a critical area, knowing well that Varane is injury prone and Martinez was just coming back from injury, similarly we needed a controlling CM, we instead got an signed another AM (Mount). We also needed a CF who was ready for the league, we instead went and got a rookie who needs at least two seasons for the league, Ten Hag should have known about deficiencies of Onana and Antony because he managed them, instead he thought they were good enough for Premier league.
We clearly need a footballing structure at the top which will make important decisions and revamp our scouting and make these clever signings that Bayern, Atletico and these other clubs make.
I don't think anybody can get more out of this side, the aspect which I believe should get Ten Hag fired is, the way he has wasted around 255M on Antony, Mount, Onana and Hojlund. We needed to overhaul the side, we needed more clever signings, some players who were free agents or some players who are in the last year of contract.
CB for example was a critical area, knowing well that Varane is injury prone and Martinez was just coming back from injury, similarly we needed a controlling CM, we instead got an signed another AM (Mount). We also needed a CF who was ready for the league, we instead went and got a rookie who needs at least two seasons for the league, Ten Hag should have known about deficiencies of Onana and Antony because he managed them, instead he thought they were good enough for Premier league.
We clearly need a footballing structure at the top which will make important decisions and revamp our scouting and make these clever signings that Bayern, Atletico and these other clubs make.
Its torture watching us ever game, more so because those of us that remember the good times and to see the fall of a giant in real time is just that much more painful.
Its the hope that keeps drawing me in, the hope that a new manager will change everything, the hope a new style of footballer will change everything, the hope a new player is the key we were missing, the hope of new coaching staff will restore us to a top team, the hope new owners will breed life into a sleeping giant, the hope that a minority investment will get us back on track etc etc etc...
Realistically we are more likely to stay where we are for many more years or get even worse than we are to get back to the top, and that is where i am now.
I need to accept that and it wont be as painful, i will always have hope for a better future but i wont bet the house on it. At the end of the day not many people can have had the joy in supporting a club that has had the success we have had and now we have to join the group of supporters that support a club that are a long way of the top and have little hope of entering it.
The giant fell the day SAF retired unfortunately.
Its the hope that keeps drawing me in, the hope that a new manager will change everything, the hope a new style of footballer will change everything, the hope a new player is the key we were missing, the hope of new coaching staff will restore us to a top team, the hope new owners will breed life into a sleeping giant, the hope that a minority investment will get us back on track etc etc etc...
Realistically we are more likely to stay where we are for many more years or get even worse than we are to get back to the top, and that is where i am now.
I need to accept that and it wont be as painful, i will always have hope for a better future but i wont bet the house on it. At the end of the day not many people can have had the joy in supporting a club that has had the success we have had and now we have to join the group of supporters that support a club that are a long way of the top and have little hope of entering it.
The giant fell the day SAF retired unfortunately.
When Swansea knocked us out in the 3rd round of the FA Cup in 13/14.