The reason the batsman gifted their wickets is because they were put under so much pressure. Even Tendulkar would have struggled under so much pressure. There was at least 3 opportunities to bowl Australia out for less than 200 when batting first and on each occasion the Australian lower order slogged themselves out of trouble. Had England got Australia out for 200 less then Clarke wouldn't have been able to put so much pressure on in England when fielding. It would have been a completely different situation to bat in in my opinion.
Ashes II - 2013/14 - In Australia
- Thread starter NinjaFletch
- Start date
The reason the batsman gifted their wickets is because they were put under so much pressure. Even Tendulkar would have struggled under so much pressure. There was at least 3 opportunities to bowl Australia out for less than 200 when batting first and on each occasion the Australian lower order slogged themselves out of trouble. Had England got Australia out for 200 less then Clarke wouldn't have been able to put so much pressure on in England when fielding. It would have been a completely different situation to bat in in my opinion.
Anyway getting back to topic, I think it is fitting that Oz go to SA next so that we can gauge how much of their 5-0 was down to them being excellent and how much to England having a 'mare.
I think SA will be in a mini-transition of sorts. They've lost Kallis. Number 4 is a very important position. It'll take a little while for their team to settle down.
Still fully expecting SA to blow away this Australian batting line-up, though.
So bowling was good because we won the odd match but batting was not because we lost the odd match. Ok
err, what was the end result? Did India win series? How many series did India lose abroad in last decade? What is the explanation of losing 2-1 to West Indies? NZ 2-0 and 5-2. Losing against SA which had Hayward as one of the bowlers. Not winning series in Australia (after one of the best collective series batting wise) against likes of Bracken and Brad Williams. Don't say because of bowling, India crumbled from 278/1 to 350/4 to 366 all out in Melbourne and then again 270 odd all out in 2nd innings which lost the test.
I can give countless examples.
To be fair to Sachin he has batted through many a batting collapses but that's different topic. I don't agree with you. There is only so much time a fast bowler can bowl full throttle with great intensity. You only need one pair to see through that spell. Problem for England was that everytime an Oz bowler upped the ante, they had a collapse to the tune of 4-6 wickets falling for 10-20 runs. That's unacceptable under any circumstances, especially if it keeps happening.
Look at today, 4 wickets in 2 overs after tea.
The pitches in SA are similar to Australia. If Johnson & Harris bowl like they did against England then the SA batsman will be shitting themselves. On the other hand, Steyn & Morkel could cause the Ozzie batsman similar problems, they won't let the Ozzie lower order slog them out of the park with their pace bowling. I predict lots of low scoring.
What happened with England is similar to what happened with India in 2012 on Australia tour. The pressure they create is immense. This Australia bunch is not on same levels quality wise perhaps as the greats of last decade, but they are hard workers and have that 'Aussie spirit' in abundance. Maybe one of the reason they struggle abroad as lack of top level skill can only take you this far.
I think England need to bring back Trott anyhow to bolster the batting. The bowlers looked tired and if we were to play series vs England right away, or in 2 months, I would put India as favorites. But 6 months is long time, England has the 'practice' series vs Sri Lanka before and they will be in home conditions. Anderson is too good a bowler to not perform for so long and his record in home conditions is incredible.
So you have expanded the discussion from Eng to other away venues. Anyway no batting line up is going to be impeccable all the time especially away from home. I did myself say that the quartet was somewhat overrated because they did underachieve in relation to their talent. Regarding sudden collapses, India has had a problem or still does about tail-enders not being to hang about as much as other countries. If we had Warne + Mcgrath to go with our batting line up, I am certain we would have won many away series.
Anyway I am done with this now, no point arguing further, everything that has to be said has been.
Yeah, agree, no point discussing much. Also agree that Mcgrath+Warne like players would have made difference somewhat.
Only, ironically, on the overrated thing, I think otherwise. For me Dravid-Sachin at 3-4 is as good as it can get potentially and with Ganguly-Laxman-Sehwag as support act, it is very strong. Yet, the consistency was not there and hence I don't buy into hype of current crop because thing are always easier said than done. Like in your point to Rams about England batsmen seeing out deadly spell.. Same happened with us, 3 pacers bowling in uncomfortable zone, for 20 overs together. How long can batsmen survive? Ours didn't too in 2012.
I don't think any test side can afford to rely on a player for leaving a tour due to a "stress related illness". It's inevitable England will pick Robson I reckon. Carberry also deserves more chances, he looks solid if you ask me. Both Broad & Anderson are world class bowlers, particularly in England.
That is a massively inaccurate statement. Apart from Sehwag none of out top batsmen ever had trouble facing quality swing bowling.
Since when does batting alone wins you games?
Well done to the Aussies & credit to Clarke and Lehmann for getting them to play as a team.
So you have gone from Indian bowlers shit themselves in winging conditions to "but they didn't win the series!!" changing your argument completely. Well done.
I was going to reply when I saw your post originally,but ignored because of your obstinacy in the Kallis thread.
Are you one of those Indians who hates on their own and idolizes everything foreign?
Extremely concerning that the ECB are allowing Cook and Flowers to continue. They, and all the coaches should go, a complete overhaul. This might sound an overreaction but look at it:
Batting - Problems have been there for years now, England are brittle against just about every type of bowling. There's no evidence of any improvement above any of them, its pretty damning that the best batsmen for England has been Stokes who hardly a renowned batsmen himself, and who's been relatively "untouched" by England coaching. Likewise Root and Compton look increasingly poor as time with England goes on.
Bowling - Probably the most damning to come out the whole thing was the complete lack of balls being bowled at the stumps, 5% I think it was. Bare in mind they had Watson, a walking LBW, and a tail constantly scoring runs - Lyon wasn't bowled out once, you'd have to say this would be very different had England not taken LBW and bowled out the equation pretty much constantly. Who decided this tactic? It makes no sense at all, 5 games we persisted with it. Whoever decided such bowling tactics is either lazy or clueless, or probably both, and really needs to go. If it was the players ignoring plans then they should be dropped. England might not have bowlers quite as fast as Australia but they can still go pretty fast, fast enough that the part time batsmen will miss one eventually and got bowled rather than letting them slog you till they eventually get caught. The less said about whatever they've done to Finn the better. Lesson's about overcoaching should have been learned from Anderson.
Cook - Doesn't even deserve to be in the team. 10 games, very poor, his average is dropping remarkably and he really hasn't looked even test level, yet alone one of the great opening batsmen as he supposedly should be. If this continues he's not meriting his position regardless of captaincy, but the concern is the sheer amount of basic mistakes he's making. Several times now he's been bowled or got out LBW by deciding to leave the ball, its inexcusably poor for that to keep reoccuring. As a captain you get the feeling everything's already planned pre-match and it its not working he really has little idea where to go. Compare how Clarke uses the bowlers for example to Cook, Cook you get the feeling has pretty much a pre-match rota of how the bowling will go, Clarke chops and changes the bowling constantly based on who's looking dangerous, not troubling the batsmen? He'll take you off after 2 overs and give someone else a chance. Complete opposite to Cook who basically summed it all up by continually bowling Rankin in Australia's last innings towards the end despite the obvious wicket threat of Broad and Stokes.
Flowers - Did great things initially but the team has gone backwards in every department to be worse than it was when he took over. Shouldn't be forgotten how he transformed England into one of the best teams in the world, but there's very little to suggest he knows how to improve things now. Particularly odd of late have been the team selections, Joe Root has been ruined, a capable middle order batsmen, terrible at the top of the order, yet England are insistant on having him there. Constantly changing through openers - Compton who after one decent series, one good series, and one bad series has ended up dropped entirely, Carberry it remains to be seen what will happen. Then just flat out bizarre decisions like picking Woakes and Kerrigan in the 5th test last summer, but then neither of them seemingly been considered good enough to even make the touring squad for the following series. Kerrigan in particular it seems is behind at least Panesar, Borthwick, and Tredwell so there really appears to be little logic in it.
Not that the actual players should in anyway avoid a large chunk of the criticism mind you. Stokes and Broad aside they could all be dropped for the next match, and not a single one could have any complaints. Cook, Pieterson, and Bell will keep their places on reputation rather than merit but the rest is anyones guess. It won't happen but I'd like to see Anderson dropped for the Sri Lanka series, give someone else a chance. Either he's in terminal decline now, in which case he needs dropping regardless, or he desperately needs some time out the firing line, in which case a start to the summer in the county game to get some confidence and return for the India series should do him so good. As it is he's really not been much a wicket threat. Of course a big problem is there's no real obvious candidates to come into the team - openers if Carberry gets dropped? Who? Spinner to replace Swann? Wicket keeper? Prior has been awful for many games, Bairstow is worse, and Buttler despite many peoples claims, is not a good enough batsmen for test cricket.
Long post. A lot to be annoyed about.
Batting - Problems have been there for years now, England are brittle against just about every type of bowling. There's no evidence of any improvement above any of them, its pretty damning that the best batsmen for England has been Stokes who hardly a renowned batsmen himself, and who's been relatively "untouched" by England coaching. Likewise Root and Compton look increasingly poor as time with England goes on.
Bowling - Probably the most damning to come out the whole thing was the complete lack of balls being bowled at the stumps, 5% I think it was. Bare in mind they had Watson, a walking LBW, and a tail constantly scoring runs - Lyon wasn't bowled out once, you'd have to say this would be very different had England not taken LBW and bowled out the equation pretty much constantly. Who decided this tactic? It makes no sense at all, 5 games we persisted with it. Whoever decided such bowling tactics is either lazy or clueless, or probably both, and really needs to go. If it was the players ignoring plans then they should be dropped. England might not have bowlers quite as fast as Australia but they can still go pretty fast, fast enough that the part time batsmen will miss one eventually and got bowled rather than letting them slog you till they eventually get caught. The less said about whatever they've done to Finn the better. Lesson's about overcoaching should have been learned from Anderson.
Cook - Doesn't even deserve to be in the team. 10 games, very poor, his average is dropping remarkably and he really hasn't looked even test level, yet alone one of the great opening batsmen as he supposedly should be. If this continues he's not meriting his position regardless of captaincy, but the concern is the sheer amount of basic mistakes he's making. Several times now he's been bowled or got out LBW by deciding to leave the ball, its inexcusably poor for that to keep reoccuring. As a captain you get the feeling everything's already planned pre-match and it its not working he really has little idea where to go. Compare how Clarke uses the bowlers for example to Cook, Cook you get the feeling has pretty much a pre-match rota of how the bowling will go, Clarke chops and changes the bowling constantly based on who's looking dangerous, not troubling the batsmen? He'll take you off after 2 overs and give someone else a chance. Complete opposite to Cook who basically summed it all up by continually bowling Rankin in Australia's last innings towards the end despite the obvious wicket threat of Broad and Stokes.
Flowers - Did great things initially but the team has gone backwards in every department to be worse than it was when he took over. Shouldn't be forgotten how he transformed England into one of the best teams in the world, but there's very little to suggest he knows how to improve things now. Particularly odd of late have been the team selections, Joe Root has been ruined, a capable middle order batsmen, terrible at the top of the order, yet England are insistant on having him there. Constantly changing through openers - Compton who after one decent series, one good series, and one bad series has ended up dropped entirely, Carberry it remains to be seen what will happen. Then just flat out bizarre decisions like picking Woakes and Kerrigan in the 5th test last summer, but then neither of them seemingly been considered good enough to even make the touring squad for the following series. Kerrigan in particular it seems is behind at least Panesar, Borthwick, and Tredwell so there really appears to be little logic in it.
Not that the actual players should in anyway avoid a large chunk of the criticism mind you. Stokes and Broad aside they could all be dropped for the next match, and not a single one could have any complaints. Cook, Pieterson, and Bell will keep their places on reputation rather than merit but the rest is anyones guess. It won't happen but I'd like to see Anderson dropped for the Sri Lanka series, give someone else a chance. Either he's in terminal decline now, in which case he needs dropping regardless, or he desperately needs some time out the firing line, in which case a start to the summer in the county game to get some confidence and return for the India series should do him so good. As it is he's really not been much a wicket threat. Of course a big problem is there's no real obvious candidates to come into the team - openers if Carberry gets dropped? Who? Spinner to replace Swann? Wicket keeper? Prior has been awful for many games, Bairstow is worse, and Buttler despite many peoples claims, is not a good enough batsmen for test cricket.
Long post. A lot to be annoyed about.
It went from "Indian batters shit themselves in swinging conditions" to "Indian don't have quality bowlers therefore whatever their batsmen did is irrelevant in England" to "Here's proof: India lost a match in Melbourne, Australia haha!"and then accusing me of having comprehension problems.
Flower has to go. Hopps writing on Cricinfo said that an English player told him that he can't go to the toilet without feeling like he's being scrutinized. I think Flower's crossed the line between remorseless perfectionist and micromanager extraordinaire. He was what England needed when he took over and England lost to WI by being bowled out for 51. England didn't seem to have a system. Now all England have is a system.
And spot on about Clarke -- his bowling rotation is simple and very effective. If a bowler's not threatening the batsmen, he changes them. It's worked magically.
Cook's just terrible.
Michael Vaughan wrote a good article in the Telegraph(I think) yesterday saying KP should be vice captain and work alongside Cook, because right now there's too many yes-men in the England set up. I thought that was a great idea.
Flower is a walking joke these days, but sadly the ECB are blinded by nostalgia on this one.
He has to go, Gooch and Saker can probably stay for me.
Change the environment, get a happy camp of talented cricketers and if the still bat and bowl poorly then have a look at the coaching they're receiving.
He has to go, Gooch and Saker can probably stay for me.
Change the environment, get a happy camp of talented cricketers and if the still bat and bowl poorly then have a look at the coaching they're receiving.
England just seem like a joy less team to me. They're an excellent side but they mostly play with very less flair. Only KP and Morgan are two batsmen who I Iove to watch.
I've sympathies for trott but as a cricket lover he was just awful to watch. Stokes look like a stunning talent.
I've sympathies for trott but as a cricket lover he was just awful to watch. Stokes look like a stunning talent.
Either read whole thread or shut up instead of making dumb and wrong points. About idolizing foreign, no, not exactly but still better than deluded people like you guys.
I did read the whole thread. You made random unrelated points that didn't substantiate your original claim. You then went on to insult people who disagreed with you. Well done. You also claim I'm deluded, when I haven't even given you my thoughts on your post. Again, Bravo. You win the internet.
KM - where do you get these guys from?
It is funny when jokers like you take moral high ground based on their own bias. Views of some of you on Cricket has been enough proof how much you actually understand. Carry on though, views of you guys on Cricket is a high quality entertainment and comedy show.
Why don't you go ahead and say what my view on this point is? You couldn't, because I haven't even explained it yet. However, you know my bias.. so go ahead and explain it. If you can.
The Man Himself is a moron.
Even when he has an opinion I agree with he goes and expresses it in such a stupid way that I find him changing my viewpoint.
Even when he has an opinion I agree with he goes and expresses it in such a stupid way that I find him changing my viewpoint.
err, it is pretty clear from your posts what your view is and I have read your before on various topics. Anyway, I think we need to draw line and stop this argument which is going no where.
Just to summarize though, It all started with Zing giving my post different turn asking me to prove current guys are bad players of swing which I had never said in first place but had commented in general. I stand by that point that Indian batsmen are not good players of swing. If you guys think we have been experts of swing, well, there have been way too many instances of failures which prove otherwise. Blaming all losses and poor away records on bowling is harsh as batting too hasn't delivered always. Anyway, you guys are incredibly biased towards Indian cricket and won't accept this. Your choice. I am not much of a fan of Indian cricket team and will consider a particular Indian team great when they do win away consistently.
You may choose to reply or not, I won't bother to carry on further. Way too depressed by United's loss to care about BCCI's team.
Really shows your mental capability when your viewpoint changes because someone explains that point in a different way.
Well, I do complicate things in my writing sometimes, I am aware of it. I drift/digress sometimes to other topic and it takes discussion other way. I don't think that was the major issue here though. Indian fans are too much biased towards team and though I agree that individually India has had some absolutely brilliant players, I see the results in the end and most of the times they have left disappointed and hence I don't buy the hype until it translates into something fruitful, consistently enough. I was crazy fan prior to match fixing but then my interest in team India waned and I started to view each team from neutral perspective, including India.
I don't recall discussing Cricket much with you. Are you the SA fan who hates Kallis?
I don't recall discussing Cricket much with you. Are you the SA fan who hates Kallis?
No, I'm very much English and one of the few people that actually seems to rate Kallis on here.
(AND PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD Zing/NM/whoeverelse I've discussed Kallis with, don't turn this into another thread on the man!)
Flower got the best out of players who were already established regulars in the test set-up but how many new younger players have been brought in and successfully integrated into the side during his tenure?
Cook's never convinced me as having a clever cricketing brain for a captain, like Clarke or McCullum.
Cook's never convinced me as having a clever cricketing brain for a captain, like Clarke or McCullum.
TBF, England performed really well and did not need a lot of fresh blood in.
Off the top of my head, they've tried Bairstow, James Taylor, Morgan, Bopara, Carberry, Root, Stokes, Compton in that extra batting slot or as Strauss' replacement. The rest of the top 6 has been largely permanent fixtures. There's honestly not a lot of quality in there in that list. Root will still go on and become a very good player, IMO but the rest of it is pretty alrightish. Still confused by Bairstow, though. Played 2 incredible innings in 2012 vs SA. It's not like he's regressed, it's like it's a different Bairstow out there right now. His basics are all wrong. Don't think any coach could've done THAT.
Ian Bell found his second wind under the new regime and Trott worked out like a charm for them.
Flower has done wonders for England, and he should be given his time to try and set right this debacle. The warning signs were there, but Australia is a tough place to go and mend a floundering ship. You can't go from a potential Test Number 1 side to a completely shit team without any potential. Instead of a carte blanche situation, perhaps ECB can get Flower to commit to some timelines with another root and branch review. England need the home advantage to play themselves in and get some confidence. We are not just trying to sack Moyes now, are we?
Cook is a different call, great players have taken on the captaincy role and they've become completely shit.
Cook is a different call, great players have taken on the captaincy role and they've become completely shit.
Being that England rarely gamble with two spinners outside the subcontinent, this was the second time they had done it in three Tests - after the failed Simon Kerrigan experiment at home. Monty was marginally quicker than Tremlett but he wasn't as accurate. It was a gamble that didn't pay off.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/current/story/707407.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/current/story/707407.html
Australia have been brilliant. England have been made to look shite by the relentless pressure the Australians have put them under.
Being that England rarely gamble with two spinners outside the subcontinent, this was the second time they had done it in three Tests - after the failed Simon Kerrigan experiment at home. Monty was marginally quicker than Tremlett but he wasn't as accurate. It was a gamble that didn't pay off.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/current/story/707407.html
'After his chat with Cook, Prior took Bairstow aside for some coaching. It was on the rubber mat that replicates keeping from a spinner. Bairstow took to it like a duck taking to architecture. Balls hit his hands and rebounded in random directions. Some went through his legs; even the ones he took often hit only one glove.'
Every time he didn't take one cleanly he smashed the rubber training stump in anger with his gloves. Prior remained kneeling, calmly feeding balls when Bairstow wasn't chasing ones he missed, or taking a short anger management walk. Eventually, after one too many misses, Bairstow just booted the training stump about 20 metres away. Bairstow then moved on to the ball machine, which fired fast deliveries at him. He dropped one of those as well.
I really like Jarrod Kimber, he understands the game well for someone thats never played it. Is close enough to the players to have access to what they're doing and saying but yet isn't part of this clique that will never criticise those that deserve it.
Oh and he's funny, he's got that going for him.
Oh and he's funny, he's got that going for him.
What a series by Johnson, he was simply devastating.
He averaged 27.50 with the bat, and took 37 wickets at a mind blowing 13.97. And then there was his brilliant efforts in the field... What a turn around.
Every harsh word said about him and Haddin by everyone is taken back!
He averaged 27.50 with the bat, and took 37 wickets at a mind blowing 13.97. And then there was his brilliant efforts in the field... What a turn around.
Every harsh word said about him and Haddin by everyone is taken back!
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/07/andy-flower-england-team-director-kevin-pietersen
Mike Selvey's reliable because he's good friends with Andy Flower.
Mike Selvey's reliable because he's good friends with Andy Flower.
I think it'd be a huge mistake to get rid of Pietersen now, no ready made replacement.