Arsenal 2023/24 - Born to be runner up

[Nish115]

Our best defensive record in the last seven seasons was with Holding as our main centreback. He's really not as bad as the fanbase discern him. Instead last season Arteta should have tactically adapted during the run in.

Rice is not an upgrade for Xhaka in the 8 role. His right-footed profile will make it harder for him to recieve forwards in that position. I also doubt he's technically on the same level as Granit. Worser passer, vision, control and shooting.

Did you mean 7 seasons or 7 games?

What has the last 7 seasons got to do with last season? Highly irrelevent. I love Holding to be honest, think he has a time and place, but he isn't a top level CB, end of really. I do agree that Mikel is at fault partly too, he could have tried something else (Partey at RB and White CB) or something else really, but he didn't. But, he is also inexperienced and i'm hoping that he learns from all this.

As I said I think Rice short term actually might not be an upgrade, but long term I think he will. He is much more mobile than Xhaka is, which is something which held us back in that position last year, so I agree he has some negatives compared to Xhaka, he has other strengths which overall will be a longer term upgrade imo.

 

[MO_Football92]

Did you mean 7 seasons or 7 games?

What has the last 7 seasons got to do with last season? Highly irrelevent. I love Holding to be honest, think he has a time and place, but he isn't a top level CB, end of really. I do agree that Mikel is at fault partly too, he could have tried something else (Partey at RB and White CB) or something else really, but he didn't. But, he is also inexperienced and i'm hoping that he learns from all this.

As I said I think Rice short term actually might not be an upgrade, but long term I think he will. He is much more mobile than Xhaka is, which is something which held us back in that position last year, so I agree he has some negatives compared to Xhaka, he has other strengths which overall will be a longer term upgrade imo.

Seven seasons, 20/21 we conceded only 37 goals. That's our best record since the days of Koscielny and Mertersacker; who we've still not replaced after all these years.

It's not irrelevant, it shows he can deputise but manager must adjust especially in the big matches. If you rewatched last seasons run in, you'll see individually that Gabriel, Zinchenko and Ramsdale made more mistakes than Holding. Collectively, he clearly disjointed us but that's on Arteta.

Spending £105m on a midfielder who only offer mobility above Xhakas contribution, isn't shrewd at all.

I seriously worry about the team and club as a whole with how myopic the fans are acting this summer.

 

[romufc]

Not fully true. We lost Tomiyasu and Saliba at the same time, which meant we had to play Holding. Which did cost us points as Holding isn't a PL winners level at all. Signing Timber stops that from happening again so we've addressed that.

If Partey stays, in theory Rice is an upgrade over Xhaka (although I rate Xhaka a lot so probably won't happen straight away).

Then we've signed Havertz as an extra attacking threat, and we have ESR back now who didn't really play last season.

So in theory we've boosted the defence, midfield and attack.

An issue for Mikel now is actually the opposite of last season. He has so many versatile players who could play, how does he find the right balance. Timber/White. Zinchenko/Kiwior/Tierney. Partey/Rice/Jorginho. Trossard/ESR/Martinelli

Ok 2 injuries. They also signed a CB in Kiwior. Tomiyasu was not first choice at any point last season anyway.

So for a fanbase complaining that the squad depth is not enough to... we have too many players!

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Not fully true. We lost Tomiyasu and Saliba at the same time, which meant we had to play Holding. Which did cost us points as Holding isn't a PL winners level at all.

He was used as a scapegoat, but he really wasn't that bad in those run-in games. Partey's form going off a cliff, Saka deciding to disappear, the general level of the team going down several levels, the lack of bottle in a few games (the back to back draws when leading 2-0, the game against Saints...), that's what really cost you a shot at the title.

 

[GoonerBear]

Ok 2 injuries. They also signed a CB in Kiwior. Tomiyasu was not first choice at any point last season anyway.

So for a fanbase complaining that the squad depth is not enough to... we have too many players!

Utd fans complain about squad depth as well, so you should be well aware it's not just about pure numbers.

We have a larger squad than City, the difference is they have more quality so when they do rotate or have injuries it's hardly noticeable.

I might be wrong but my impression is that they do a good bit rotation at the start of the season, and seem to accept the occasional poor result, so that they are all primed and fit and focused at the business end of the season.

I do agree with MO though, there's something just not mentally there, whether it's bottle, whether it's belief, whether it's complacency at times, whatever you want to label it, it's still a bit of an issue for us.

 

[Daydreamer]

Squad depth did cost us. That not an “excuse”, we’re responsible for ensuring we have a strong squad. I’m not sure why everything has to be an “excuse”, or worse, “copium”.

Holding is brilliant at defending his box from a deep position and holding on to leads as third CB.

He’s awful in a high line with inverted FBs pushing in midfield leaving huge gaps for our CBs to cover.

He also benefits from have a double pivot ahead of him at, providing two options for a short pass and mitigating his inability to play out from the back.

In short, he’s an asset in certain 5-3-2 and 4-2-3-1 setups. He’s a liability in a pressing 4-3-3 with a lone 6.

I’m still mystified as to why Arteta persisted with it for so long. It’s one of my only criticisms of him for last season.

 

[Nish115]

He was used as a scapegoat, but he really wasn't that bad in those run-in games. Partey's form going off a cliff, Saka deciding to disappear, the general level of the team going down several levels, the lack of bottle in a few games (the back to back draws when leading 2-0, the game against Saints...), that's what really cost you a shot at the title.

Agreed several reasons to be fair. He wasn't great in the run in. The biggest issue was it changed how we needed to play as he wasn't mobile or good enough on the ball to keep playing how we wanted, but again that's more on Mikel tbh.

 

[WeePat]

Seven seasons, 20/21 we conceded only 37 goals. That's our best record since the days of Koscielny and Mertersacker; who we've still not replaced after all these years.

It's not irrelevant, it shows he can deputise but manager must adjust especially in the big matches. If you rewatched last seasons run in, you'll see individually that Gabriel, Zinchenko and Ramsdale made more mistakes than Holding. Collectively, he clearly disjointed us but that's on Arteta.

Spending £105m on a midfielder who only offer mobility above Xhakas contribution, isn't shrewd at all.

I seriously worry about the team and club as a whole with how myopic the fans are acting this summer.

Gabriel spent most of those games babysitting and covering for Holding. He was your best defender by a mile post World Cup.

 

[MO_Football92]

Utd fans complain about squad depth as well, so you should be well aware it's not just about pure numbers.

We have a larger squad than City, the difference is they have more quality so when they do rotate or have injuries it's hardly noticeable.

Squad depth did cost us. That not an “excuse”, we’re responsible for ensuring we have a strong squad. I’m not sure why everything has to be an “excuse”, or worse, “copium”.

Holding is brilliant at defending his box from a deep position and holding on to leads as third CB.

He’s awful in a high line with inverted FBs pushing in midfield leaving huge gaps for our CBs to cover.

He also benefits from have a double pivot ahead of him at, providing two options for a short pass and mitigating his inability to play out from the back.

In short, he’s an asset in certain 5-3-2 and 4-2-3-1 setups. He’s a liability in a pressing 4-3-3 with a lone 6.

I’m still mystified as to why Arteta persisted with it for so long. It’s one of my only criticisms of him for last season.

It wasn't squad depth when we only in one competition.

It's a combination of technical, tactical and psychological factors.

Technically we were not at the level to affect teams offensively. Our finishing was poor especially versus Southampton at home. The passing against City and Brighton was absolutely pathetic; no combinations, too many touches and a lack of creativity. Saka and Martinelli aren't elite dribblers; so can't thwart low block teams through that.

Tactically, the team got found out. The ultra wide positioning of Saka and Martinelli became too predictable. Neither were given license to roam inside and impact things. Saka particularly would thrive at this, but the tactics are too stifling. Defensively, we couldn't cover wide spaces quick enough due to the inverted fullbacks. Teams started to target us. Needed to embed new tactics from Saliba's injury.

Psychologically, we were too emotional across the season from manager to players. This is unsustainable at the top level during the season run-in. Artetas management style creates extrinsic motivation; it all comes from him. This was evident in the documentary. But such management will only take your team so far. This for me is my main concern with Mikel. Psychology is the most important and overlooked aspect in football.

You can't keep being shortsighted, using squad depth as an excuse. The team is bang average and spending more money is actually making us worse.

 

[MO_Football92]

Gabriel spent most of those games babysitting and covering for Holding. He was your best defender by a mile post World Cup.

Gabriel was actually injured alot that year. Holding was the mainstay alongside either Luiz, Mari or Gabriel.

I actually thought we looked our best with Holding and Mari tbh. But of course that pairing could never be long term.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Which did cost us points as Holding isn't a PL winners level at all.

Just a question, removing the 2 players you signed from City having won league there, who else is a PL winner level in Arsenal?

As another Arsenal fan has said, scapegoat is what many of your fans are looking for. Arsenal went to default settings after the 19th game of the league. The level Arteta has maintained in the seasons he has been there.

Rice, Havertz will not make Arsenal win 10-15 games on the bounce.. You will still maintain in 6 games, 4 wins, 1 win, 1 draw spread through out the season at most.

And you will have a 10 game period where you will hit a brick wall. It has happened every other season now, till is a norm.
Same way we know Pep's City will have a 10+ winning run next season.

 

[WeePat]

Gabriel was actually injured alot that year. Holding was the mainstay alongside either Luiz, Mari or Gabriel.

I actually thought we looked our best with Holding and Mari tbh. But of course that pairing could never be long term.

What year you are on about?

I was responding to this bit of your post which pretty clearly refers to last season.

It's not irrelevant, it shows he can deputise but manager must adjust especially in the big matches. If you rewatched last seasons run in, you'll see individually that Gabriel, Zinchenko and Ramsdale made more mistakes than Holding. Collectively, he clearly disjointed us but that's on Arteta.

 

[MO_Football92]

What year you are on about?

I was responding to this bit of your post which pretty clearly refers to last season.

OK

I was talking before about three seasons ago, 20/21.

Holding isn't a great defender, but I do find the scapegoating towards him ridiculous and sheepish.

 

[Nish115]

Just a question, removing the 2 players you signed from City having won league there, who else is a PL winner level in Arsenal?

As another Arsenal fan has said, scapegoat is what many of your fans are looking for. Arsenal went to default settings after the 19th game of the league. The level Arteta has maintained in the seasons he has been there.

Rice, Havertz will not make Arsenal win 10-15 games on the bounce.. You will still maintain in 6 games, 4 wins, 1 win, 1 draw spread through out the season at most.

And you will have a 10 game period where you will hit a brick wall. It has happened every other season now, till is a norm.
Same way we know Pep's City will have a 10+ winning run next season.

I mean that isn't what I mean.. surely you are aware i'm not saying we have a full team of players who have won the PL before..

I'm saying he's not the level of a player who could win the PL.

 

[Nish115]

OK

I was talking before about three seasons ago, 20/21.

Holding isn't a great defender, but I do find the scapegoating towards him ridiculous and sheepish.

It's not sheepish. He has strengths and a role in the squad which is why I want him to stay. But it was VERY clear the bad impact he had. He couldn't play out the back, couldn't play a high line, and it meant Gabriel then was torn between having to cover for Holding but cover for Zinchenko to when he went into midfield. It completely changed our backline dynamic, and Mikel eventually worked it out when Kiwior came in instead.

 

[MO_Football92]

It's not sheepish. He has strengths and a role in the squad which is why I want him to stay. But it was VERY clear the bad impact he had. He couldn't play out the back, couldn't play a high line, and it meant Gabriel then was torn between having to cover for Holding but cover for Zinchenko to when he went into midfield. It completely changed our backline dynamic, and Mikel eventually worked it out when Kiwior came in instead.

I think it's very sheepish. People rather blame Holding than Arteta for not changing the tactical dynamic sooner. As mentioned earlier, other players made more costing mistakes but weren't criticised as vitriolically.

Kiwior played instead of Holding against Brighton and Nottingham. Yet again we were a joke tactically and technically.

 

[romufc]

Utd fans complain about squad depth as well, so you should be well aware it's not just about pure numbers.

We have a larger squad than City, the difference is they have more quality so when they do rotate or have injuries it's hardly noticeable.

I might be wrong but my impression is that they do a good bit rotation at the start of the season, and seem to accept the occasional poor result, so that they are all primed and fit and focused at the business end of the season.

I do agree with MO though, there's something just not mentally there, whether it's bottle, whether it's belief, whether it's complacency at times, whatever you want to label it, it's still a bit of an issue for us.

Its not squad depth then, its more about raising your floor. The difference between Manutd, Arsenal and City is that Mahrez will not play for 8 games and come in and score a hattrick, whereas say a Fred or Viera wont play for 8 games and comes in and the fans will say... he lacks sharpness rhythm.

You are spot on, City try different things at the start of the season, there was a point where the media were wondering if KDB was interested or not as he was dropped. Bernado Silva started LB against Arsenal away... that is not normal then when it comes to the business end, they all turned up with minimal rotation.

There will always be an issue, either the squad is too thin, or the squad is too big.. Chelsea suffered from having too many players last season.

P.S United fans complained because we played most of the season without a Striker really.

 

[Daydreamer]

It wasn't squad depth when we only in one competition.

These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

It's a combination of technical, tactical and psychological factors.

Agreed. Once again, this doesn't preclude the fact that City gaining five points more than us has more to do with the fact they have a higher quality squad than us than any other reason.

Technically we were not at the level to affect teams offensively. Our finishing was poor especially versus Southampton at home. The passing against City and Brighton was absolutely pathetic; no combinations, too many touches and a lack of creativity. Saka and Martinelli aren't elite dribblers; so can't thwart low block teams through that.

In the run of three draws where we effectively lost the title, we scored seven goals and missed a penalty. Saka and Martinelli were being doubled up on... and still bagged plenty of goals and assists - very often against low blocks.

Psychologically, we were too emotional across the season from manager to players. This is unsustainable at the top level during the season run-in. Artetas management style creates extrinsic motivation; it all comes from him. This was evident in the documentary. But such management will only take your team so far. This for me is my main concern with Mikel. Psychology is the most important and overlooked aspect in football.

I agree that we had moments where we needed more composure. Anfield was the most egregious example. But the only reason we were in a title race to begin with is because of that style of management. There are pros and cons, but the pros are far outweighing the cons at the moment.

You can't keep being shortsighted, using squad depth as an excuse. The team is bang average and spending more money is actually making us worse.

You do know it's possible to analyse where a team has fallen short without it being an excuse, right?

Also, I'm not sure what what's "shortsighted" about pointing out a lack of squad depth as an issue. I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely baffled as to what your problem is with that. Do you think that City winning their third consecutive title as part of a treble has nothing to do with the fact that they have the strongest squad?

Is this Arsenal team the finished product? No. But calling it bang average and getting worse after one poor pre-season game is pretty dire analysis. I'd go as far as calling it shortsighted.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

I mean that isn't what I mean.. surely you are aware i'm not saying we have a full team of players who have won the PL before..

I'm saying he's not the level of a player who could win the PL.

But again who has won the league in your squad bar the City players? The guy from Chelsea did he? Can't recall.

Meaning, condemning Holding to be player who isn't on a PL winning level while you have never won the said yardstick is such a scapegoat.

Arsenal have qualified for Champions League for the first time in 7 years. Last time you guys played in CL Wenger was your coach, United were being managed by Mourinho. Pep had NOT WON any EPL title.

This narrative that you guys have, that Arsenal is magically a good team, now full of winners, a force in the league is completely untrue.

You were unable to sustain good form in the last part of last season but now it's a given Arsenal will challenge for the title going by the predictions being given.

First navigate the upcoming season, playing full squad in Europe and league with suspension and injuries while maintaining top form then we can start calling some of your player 'not PL winning level'.

 

[MO_Football92]

These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Agreed. Once again, this doesn't preclude the fact that City gaining five points more than us has more to do with the fact they have a higher quality squad than us than any other reason.

In the run of three draws where we effectively lost the title, we scored seven goals and missed a penalty. Saka and Martinelli were being doubled up on... and still bagged plenty of goals and assists - very often against low blocks.

I agree that we had moments where we needed more composure. Anfield was the most egregious example. But the only reason we were in a title race to begin with is because of that style of management. There are pros and cons, but the pros are far outweighing the cons at the moment.

You do know it's possible to analyse where a team has fallen short without it being an excuse, right?

Also, I'm not sure what what's "shortsighted" about pointing out a lack of squad depth as an issue. I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely baffled as to what your problem is with that. Do you think the fact that City winning their third consecutive title as part of a treble has nothing to do with the fact that they have the strongest squad?

Is this Arsenal team the finished product? No. But calling it bang average and getting worse after one poor pre-season game is pretty dire analysis. I'd go as far as calling it shortsighted.

Regardless, it still weakens the depth argument.

Squad quality shouldn't impact its mentality; if anything being the underdog should bring more togetherness.

Football isn't only about stats; goals and assists. Just because they scored, it doesn't mean they're being used to their full abilities. Having a creative talent like Saka so wide is criminal.

Controversial, but I don't think its a title race until the last 8 matches of a season. That's the period we failed, mainly due to extrinsic motivation in my opinion.

Sure. But we Arsenal fans must analyse constructively.

Its short sighted because most fans post season put the collapse down to squad size. I'm saying there are numerous factors which contribute to our embarrassing finish.

Your right, I shouldn't call them bang average because they're not and their was progression last year. But we did get lucky compared to previous teams. I also question our defensive play and overrall game management.

 

[Daydreamer]

Its not squad depth then, its more about raising your floor. The difference between Manutd, Arsenal and City is that Mahrez will not play for 8 games and come in and score a hattrick, whereas say a Fred or Viera wont play for 8 games and comes in and the fans will say... he lacks sharpness rhythm.

You are spot on, City try different things at the start of the season, there was a point where the media were wondering if KDB was interested or not as he was dropped. Bernado Silva started LB against Arsenal away... that is not normal then when it comes to the business end, they all turned up with minimal rotation.

There will always be an issue, either the squad is too thin, or the squad is too big.. Chelsea suffered from having too many players last season.

P.S United fans complained because we played most of the season without a Striker really.

It seems like you're saying City have better rotation options than Arsenal, which I fully agree with. But how is that different from saying that they have better squad depth?

 

[RVN1991]

@1:35 surely he's taking the piss

 

[Daydreamer]

Sure. But we Arsenal fans must analyse constructively.

Ita short sighted because most fans post season put the collapse down to squad size. I'm saying there are numerous factors which contribute to the embarrassing finish.

Your right, I shouldn't call them bang average because they're not and their was progression last year. But we did get lucky compared to previous teams. I also question our defensive play and overrall game management.

Fair enough. I don't think our squad was too small. I think we lacked depth. The replacement options weren't effective enough. That isn't scapegoating the likes of Holding, though. We just have a few players who really don't fit our usual style and he is one of them.

By the way, that's on Arteta. I'm a huge fan of Arteta, but Holding didn't pick himself for a series of crucial games in the run-in. Our Manager did.

That's somewhat understandable seeing as we were in an unexpected title race that stretched our squad to the limit. Plus, it's not like Arteta signed the players who don't suit our style of play any longer. But from this season, it truly is Arteta's team. The squad has been composed in his image and to his specifications. We're not the favourites for any competition we're entering, so I'm not expecting silverware (though I very much hope for it). But I do expect us to avoid any self-inflicted defeats and/or a run of games where the team completely collapses when one or two key players are missing.

 

[GoonerBear]

Its not squad depth then, its more about raising your floor. The difference between Manutd, Arsenal and City is that Mahrez will not play for 8 games and come in and score a hattrick, whereas say a Fred or Viera wont play for 8 games and comes in and the fans will say... he lacks sharpness rhythm.

You are spot on, City try different things at the start of the season, there was a point where the media were wondering if KDB was interested or not as he was dropped. Bernado Silva started LB against Arsenal away... that is not normal then when it comes to the business end, they all turned up with minimal rotation.

There will always be an issue, either the squad is too thin, or the squad is too big.. Chelsea suffered from having too many players last season.

P.S United fans complained because we played most of the season without a Striker really.

Well yeah, i agree it's about raising your floor, but at the end of the day it's a quality issue, either depth or otherwise.

But again who has won the league in your squad bar the City players? The guy from Chelsea did he? Can't recall.

Meaning, condemning Holding to be player who isn't on a PL winning level while you have never won the said yardstick is such a scapegoat.

Arsenal have qualified for Champions League for the first time in 7 years. Last time you guys played in CL Wenger was your coach, United were being managed by Mourinho. Pep had NOT WON any EPL title.

This narrative that you guys have, that Arsenal is magically a good team, now full of winners, a force in the league is completely untrue.

You were unable to sustain good form in the last part of last season but now it's a given Arsenal will challenge for the title going by the predictions being given.

First navigate the upcoming season, playing full squad in Europe and league with suspension and injuries while maintaining top form then we can start calling some of your player 'not PL winning level'.

I think bar the odd person, hardly any Arsenal fans have came in here with the narrative that we have a team full of winners and it's a given that we'll challenge for the title. If anything it's Utd fans on here telling us that after our spend we must challenge for the title. If as Arsenal fans we say we will challenge we are deemed as arrogant and unrealistic by the likes of yourself, if we say we can see City winning it and we will challenge for the other top 4 places with the likes of Liverpool and yourselves we are deemed as not demanding or ambitious enough.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 

[Nish115]

But again who has won the league in your squad bar the City players? The guy from Chelsea did he? Can't recall.

Meaning, condemning Holding to be player who isn't on a PL winning level while you have never won the said yardstick is such a scapegoat.

Arsenal have qualified for Champions League for the first time in 7 years. Last time you guys played in CL Wenger was your coach, United were being managed by Mourinho. Pep had NOT WON any EPL title.

This narrative that you guys have, that Arsenal is magically a good team, now full of winners, a force in the league is completely untrue.

You were unable to sustain good form in the last part of last season but now it's a given Arsenal will challenge for the title going by the predictions being given.

First navigate the upcoming season, playing full squad in Europe and league with suspension and injuries while maintaining top form then we can start calling some of your player 'not PL winning level'.

Sorry but what are you even talking about?

When did I say that, I feel like you're not even reading anything properly and jumping at the gun.

My point was that players like Saliba, Saka, Odegaard, Jesus, Zinchenko, Martinelli, Partey, Rice, Gabriel, White wouldn't look out of place coming in and doing a job in Citys team (even if it was a rotation player).

In no world would Rob Holding be able to do that. I like Holding, but he isn't at that level.

Where did I ever write that we have won anything and that our players are all winners?

We are a good team though.. and there's many many things which point to that.

 

[romufc]

It seems like you're saying City have better rotation options than Arsenal, which I fully agree with. But how is that different from saying that they have better squad depth?

No, what I am saying is, City are a different machine where players come in and do a job. I mean they had Rico Lewis come in and do a job for games, is he better than your 2nd choice RB?

https://www.football365.com/news/feature-premier-league-players-used-man-city-arsenal-chelsea-forest

Here is an article showing City used the least players in the PL, Arsenal used more. Depth of squad is not an issue for clubs, its the management of players.

 

[Zagoon]

Out of curiosity, what brought you to that impression? I thought all 3 were mediocre in every aspect of their game.

Some brief observations off the top of my head, Ill speak more to their qualities as players and not the tactical instructions given. You would assume that as players they'd follow instructions and that isnt something to be wow over.

With Rice in the six, we saw him circulate the ball well during our build up phase. We were able to rotate well enough, with Tomiyasu inverting and Rice going out wide. To Rice dropping into our back 3, with Timber inverting from the right side and Saliba taking up positions at RCB. These rotations were good enough to repeatedly play through your aggressive press, overload one side (the left side) and switch it out to Saka who was 1v1 against Shaw.

An issue I had with Rice in the game was him not positioning himself well enough for the direct ball from GK into midfield. Now, part of that is of course your press which was well structured. But I want Declan to be able to move and position himself to receive directly more, as such moves take out many players at a time.

With Havertz, we can already see how good he is at finding space in advanced areas, especially the box. A stand out move you are seeing a lot this pre-season, is Kai's ability to ghost in behind the last defender at the far post. You saw this against United a few times, and the most notable one was his goal against the MLS all stars... its the same pattern again there. If you remember City last season, they made great use of those "halfspace crosses" where De Bruyne would cross the ball for Haaland to attack at the far post. We are seeing something similar here.

With Timber, its his ability to provide security inside, with good close control, receiving and turning under pressure and being able to evade pressure while on the ball, in what are dangerous zones for us. Essentially the ball lost in those areas are going to be problematic for us, so that security he displays is quite encouraging.

Where Timber needs work is in his aggressiveness and desire to be as vertical (direct) as possible when the ball is won. This sounds good on paper, but you want to also establish control of games instead of making it chaotic and end to end all the time.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I saw absolutely nothing of what you saw in Rice and Havertz particularly. I'm not saying they won't progress, but I feel like you had preconceived ideas of both players and what actually happened on the pitch didn't matter at all. That could have genuinely been written by someone not having watched the game.

 

[Zagoon]

I saw absolutely nothing of what you saw in Rice and Havertz particularly. I'm not saying they won't progress, but I feel like you had preconceived ideas of both players and what actually happened on the pitch didn't matter at all. That could have genuinely been written by someone not having watched the game.

I knew they could do what I described, but I've seen it in action as well. Hence my encouragement.

These players are giving us the extra combinations we need to play high level football for longer next season, with more options available. That essentially is the point of all this.

Im not as bothered by headline grabbing performances, that's for highlights packages and social media. It doesnt do much for what we are doing in a system.

 

[LordSpud]

Back to the Europa League after this season

 

[RuudTom83]

Gundogan, Mahrez, Bernardo, Walker all potentially leaving...KDB a year older.

There is room for optimism in the coming season. For all the top teams, but I doubt Arsenal will match the level they played last season...if they can they might be able to go close again.

City might have burnout, you never know.

 

[Daydreamer]

No, what I am saying is, City are a different machine where players come in and do a job. I mean they had Rico Lewis come in and do a job for games, is he better than your 2nd choice RB?

https://www.football365.com/news/feature-premier-league-players-used-man-city-arsenal-chelsea-forest

Here is an article showing City used the least players in the PL, Arsenal used more. Depth of squad is not an issue for clubs, its the management of players.

Rico Lewis isn't better than Tomiyasu, no. I'm not sure what that proves, though. Especially as Tomiyasu was one of the players we sorely missed during the run-in.

I really don't understand what you're getting at. As you point out, City used the least footballers in the league last year. And they won the treble, including their third PL on the bounce. And have arguably the best squad ever assembled. Doesn't that suggest that squad depth and the number of players used across the season have pretty much zero correlation?

The reason City can use so few players is because they have a first team squad comprised of players of extremely high quality. You're correct in saying that they are a different machine where players come in and do a job. That isn't an argument against them having enviable squad depth. It is the depth of their squad that enables such interchangeability.

 

[romufc]

Rico Lewis isn't better than Tomiyasu, no. I'm not sure what that proves, though. Especially as Tomiyasu was one of the players we sorely missed during the run-in.

I really don't understand what you're getting at. As you point out, City used the least footballers in the league last year. And they won the treble, including their third PL on the bounce. And have arguably the best squad ever assembled. Doesn't that suggest that squad depth and the number of players used across the season have pretty much zero correlation?

The reason City can use so few players is because they have a first team squad comprised of players of extremely high quality. You're correct in saying that they are a different machine where players come in and do a job. That isn't an argument against them having enviable squad depth. It is the depth of their squad that enables such interchangeability.

My point is, they loaned their starting LB and changed their system to suit. Tomiyasu was 2nd choice RB for Arsenal last season, which is comparable to what Rico Lewis is at City.

No that suggests they have squad quality not depth, they dont need masses of numbers. They used the fewest players, so I dont know why Arsenal fans keep complaining about depth, like that was the reason they blew the league.

 

[Daydreamer]

My point is, they loaned their starting LB and changed their system to suit. Tomiyasu was 2nd choice RB for Arsenal last season, which is comparable to what Rico Lewis is at City.

No that suggests they have squad quality not depth, they dont need masses of numbers. They used the fewest players, so I dont know why Arsenal fans keep complaining about depth, like that was the reason they blew the league.

When we talk about squad depth, we aren't simply counting up the number of professional footballer a club employs. If that were the case, then every team PL has excellent squad depth.

Squad depth is about having a sufficient number of top class players to enable you to rotate your squad without a drop in quality. It's a sports term that's even understood in non-sporting uses. If we say that the government has a "deep bench" of potential successors to the Prime Minister, we don't mean that his Cabinet contains an unusually high number of Ministers. We mean that the quality of those Ministers ensures there are plenty of options if a replacement needs to be made.

And yes, I think the reason City won the league is because they have a deeper squad than us. In fact, they have a deeper squad than everybody. Which is why they've won 4 out of the last 5 leagues and are favourites to win this season. I would have thought that this was the least controversial things someone could say on a football forum.

 

[romufc]

When we talk about squad depth, we aren't simply counting up the number of professional footballer a club employs. If that were the case, then every team PL has excellent squad depth.

Squad depth is about having a sufficient number of top class players to enable you to rotate your squad without a drop in quality. It's a sports term that's even understood in non-sporting uses. If we say that the government has a "deep bench" of potential successors to the Prime Minister, we don't mean that his Cabinet contains an unusually high number of Ministers. We mean that the quality of those Ministers ensures there are plenty of options if a replacement needs to be made.

And yes, I think the reason City won the league is because they have a deeper squad than us. In fact, they have a deeper squad than everybody. Which is why they've won 4 out of the last 5 leagues and are favourites to win this season. I would have thought that this was the least controversial things someone could say on a football forum.

From the time Arsenal dropped off, they were playing 1 competition whilst City were in 3.... They have great depth but they also compete every season in 3/4 competitions, they don't hand over competitions focus on one then say squad depth.

City had 2/3 games a week, Arsenal had 1.

 

[Nish115]

The difference is Pep has had 7 years to build a squad which he's happy for any player to step in. Arteta has had to spend 3 years just getting the starting XI to look the right way. Now we're finally getting to the point we have flexible players who can jump in.

 

[GoonerBear]

From the time Arsenal dropped off, they were playing 1 competition whilst City were in 3.... They have great depth but they also compete every season in 3/4 competitions, they don't hand over competitions focus on one then say squad depth.

City had 2/3 games a week, Arsenal had 1.

I don't quite get the handing over of competitions line, or the when people say we threw competitions.

Do people expect a manager to try and play his strongest team every single game? Do people not expect a manager to try and rotate players and make use of his squad?

Or is it simply rotate and win = good squad management, rotate and win = throwing it away?

 

[Daydreamer]

I don't quite get the handing over of competitions line, or the when people say we threw competitions.

Do people expect a manager to try and play his strongest team every single game? Do people not expect a manager to try and rotate players and make use of his squad?

Or is it simply rotate and win = good squad management, rotate and win = throwing it away?

You've cracked it.

 

[romufc]

I don't quite get the handing over of competitions line, or the when people say we threw competitions.

Do people expect a manager to try and play his strongest team every single game? Do people not expect a manager to try and rotate players and make use of his squad?

Or is it simply rotate and win = good squad management, rotate and win = throwing it away?

Well if you rotated and got kicked out... meaning you have 1 game a week in the PL only... why do you need squad depth?

Are you saying Arsenal only had 11 players? only 2 real injuries to Saliba and Tomiyasu and squad depth excuses came out.

I mean they had 1 game a week for the last part of the season, whilst being 7 points clear.

 

[Rajiztar]

Well if you rotated and got kicked out... meaning you have 1 game a week in the PL only... why do you need squad depth?

Are you saying Arsenal only had 11 players? only 2 real injuries to Saliba and Tomiyasu and squad depth excuses came out.

I mean they had 1 game a week for the last part of the season, whilst being 7 points clear.

Arsenal bottled previous season top 4 chance as well to spurs. When they were under pressure they seemed to under perform. It's ingrained in them. Very difficult to overcome those traits.