Are we slowly turning into another Arsenal?

Kostov said:
So if we win the fa cup and finish 4th this season are we building a winning mentality?
You install winning mentality to this team by letting them know nothing but the absolute best is allowed. We’ve been here before with Mourinho imo. Most of this players don’t understand that we must be competing with Liverpool and City, if they did we wouldn’t have been spanked by one of them 0:5. The management is also guilty of this same problem. Progress? What fecking progress? You build a team to win the league, if they win something on the way it’s a plus. What winning mentality did we install by winning the fa cup with LVG? Europa league with Mourinho? Instead those small achievements were used to brag by said managers like so big successes while missing the big picture.
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The trouble with your premise is they’re not mutually exclusive. You can win a domestic cup & the EPL/UCL. I’m not sure what 4th & an FA cup has to do with what I said but I’d rather win the FA Cup & place 1st, 2nd, 3rd. . . than finish 1st, 2nd, 3rd. . . & not win it.

The statement ’we should be aiming for UCL & EPL’ in itself isn’t the issue, we should but when you’re successively knocked out of the competition in the group stages & you’re in a Top4 race by October that’s obviously not currently in our capacity.

Nottingham Forest have more European Cups than Arsenal & City combined, as much as Chelsea & 1 less than us, I take it they should only be focusing on the UCL. . . You’re not making a real argument. Would I like to be Arsenal? Scraping 4th & winning the odd FA Cup? No, but you don’t have to be to win these ‘shit trophies’. No one called them ‘shit’ when they were part of a domestic double, or cups won in & around other trophies, It’s a strange new phenomena.

The issue is never winning a trophy, with bigger squads the domestic cups allow fringe players to get a run & it gives matchgoers a good day out, no one celebrates domestic cups like a UCL. The issue is, post Jose the shell shock has made fans act as of because we’re crap every win must be looked at in a silo, ‘We lost in the Europa league final but it isn’t the UCL so who cares’, it’s odd as fans seem to be writing seasons off prematurely.

A winning mentality isn’t simply, we won the FA Cup so we’re going to win the league; no one is saying it is but when the story of the club is written I’d rather we were winning things than not. I get that we should be aiming for the best but we should also enjoy the journey getting back there. We’ve wasted some really good opportunities in recent years imo.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
The trouble with your premise is they’re not mutually exclusive. You can win a domestic cup & the EPL/UCL. I’m not sure what 4th & an FA cup has to do with what I said but I’d rather win the FA Cup & place 1st, 2nd, 3rd. . . than finish 1st, 2nd, 3rd. . . & not win it.

The statement ’we should be aiming for UCL & EPL’ in itself isn’t the issue, we should but when you’re successively knocked out of the competition in the group stages & you’re in a Top4 race by October that’s obviously not currently in our capacity.

Nottingham Forest have more European Cups than Arsenal & City combined, as much as Chelsea & 1 less than us, I take it they should only be focusing on the UCL. . . You’re not making a real argument. Would I like to be Arsenal? Scraping 4th & winning the odd FA Cup? No, but you don’t have to be to win these ‘shit trophies’. No one called them ‘shit’ when they were part of a domestic double, or cups won in & around other trophies, It’s a strange new phenomena.

The issue is never winning a trophy, with bigger squads the domestic cups allow fringe players to get a run & it gives matchgoers a good day out, no one celebrates domestic cups like a UCL. The issue is, post Jose the shell shock has made fans act as of because we’re crap every win must be looked at in a silo, ‘We lost in the Europa league final but it isn’t the UCL so who cares’, it’s odd as fans seem to be writing seasons off prematurely.

A winning mentality isn’t simply, we won the FA Cup so we’re going to win the league; no one is saying it is but when the story of the club is written I’d rather we were winning things than not. I get that we should be aiming for the best but we should also enjoy the journey getting back there. We’ve wasted some really good opportunities in recent years imo.
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Enjoy the journey? Are you fecking kidding me? No mate there’s no enjoyment in seeing us plummeting down the drain and the club being turned to dust. All the good things layed by Sir Alex now worth for shit, since we are loosing ground to rivals consistently.
If we as you say are out of the cup and into a top 4 race by October than something is seriously not right and heads need to roll. And no we don’t need to get to Forrest level in order to see the big picture. But neither should we go the Liverpool route of 20 years in the wilderness. Nothing but the best counts, the longer the wait the more difficult the journey back will be.
 
Kostov said:
Enjoy the journey? Are you fecking kidding me? No mate there’s no enjoyment in seeing us plummeting down the drain and the club being turned to dust. All the good things layed by Sir Alex now worth for shit, since we are loosing ground to rivals consistently.
If we as you say are out of the cup and into a top 4 race by October than something is seriously not right and heads need to roll. And no we don’t need to get to Forrest level in order to see the big picture. But neither should we go the Liverpool route of 20 years in the wilderness. Nothing but the best counts, the longer the wait the more difficult the journey back will be.
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You don’t become Champions League/League winners over night, the fact you’ve hung your discussion on that one word is the exact reason we’re lost. You don’t do nothing, kind of like we have done for the past few years, then miraculously wake up ‘the best’.

Read my post again cause you’re arguing with yourself, I’m on about the stupidity that is calling the domestic cups ‘shit trophies’ & you’re waffling.

Who said heads shouldn’t ‘roll’? Not me. Who said we shouldn’t be aiming for the best? Not me either. You’re having a whole other discussion so I’ll clarify. . .



AFC NimbleThumb said:
The trouble with your premise is they’re not mutually exclusive. You can win a domestic cup & the EPL/UCL. I’m not sure what 4th & an FA cup has to do with what I said but I’d rather win the FA Cup & place 1st, 2nd, 3rd. . . than finish 1st, 2nd, 3rd. . . & not win it.
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It really is that simple. I want to win them all. We win the League, I want the FA Cup. We win the League & UCL, then I still want the FA Cup.

You’re the guy saying you only want 2 of 3. The treble was ‘the best’, yet you’re happy with a double. I’ll take the League Cup too while we’re at it.
AFC NimbleThumb said:
A winning mentality isn’t simply, we won the FA Cup so we’re going to win the league; no one is saying it is.
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My point about the ‘journey’ is win as much as you can whenever you can. Say we become the best in Europe again, I still want to win other things too.

Read what’s written & stop arguing with yourself. ‘there’s no enjoyment in seeing us plummeting down the drain‘, no ones saying there is fella.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
You don’t become Champions League/League winners over night, the fact you’ve hung your discussion on that one word is the exact reason we’re lost. You don’t do nothing, kind of like we have done for the past few years, then miraculously wake up ‘the best’.

Read my post again cause you’re arguing with yourself, I’m on about the stupidity that is calling the domestic cups ‘shit trophies’ & you’re waffling.

Who said heads shouldn’t ‘roll’? Not me. Who said we shouldn’t be aiming for the best? Not me either. You’re having a whole other discussion so I’ll clarify. . .
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Depends where you are coming from. Chelsea went from struggling to make top 4 last season to Champions League winners in 4 months, and now look like they will make a good run at the league this season. There's no reason really to not think Utd couldn't do similar if they weren't run much better than they are.
 
RazorOz said:
Depends where you are coming from. Chelsea went from struggling to make top 4 last season to Champions League winners in 4 months, and now look like they will make a good run at the league this season. There's no reason really to not think Utd couldn't do similar if they weren't run much better than they are.
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Chelsea actually make a good comparison, didn’t they batter Arsenal in the Europa League a few seasons ago? My issue is when fans act like winning the Europa, League Cup, FA Cup is in any way a negative or beneath us. I don’t want to be playing in the Europa League but when we’re in it we better fecking win it. The fact OfS hasn’t & kept his job is another discussion, I’d have sacked him for Sevilla alone.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Chelsea actually make a good comparison, didn’t they batter Arsenal in the Europa League a few seasons ago? My issue is when fans act like winning the Europa, League Cup, FA Cup is in any way a negative or beneath us. I don’t want to be playing in the Europa League but when we’re in it we better fecking win it. The fact OfS hasn’t & kept his job is another discussion, I’d have sacked him for Sevilla alone.
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Yep, under Sarri in 18/19 - we were in it from the off because we'd finished 5th under Conte the year before. We also won it in 13/14 12/13 during Rafa's interim spell - fell into that after our embarrassing defence of the CL crashed us out of the group.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Yep, under Sarri in 18/19 - we were in it from the off because we'd finished 5th under Conte the year before. We also won it in 13/14 during Rafa's interim spell - fell into that after our embarrassing defence of the CL crashed us out of the group.
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As we can see it’s really destabilised your club & lowered your expectations winning one of those ‘shit trophies’.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
As we can see it’s really destabilised your club & lowered your expectations winning one of those ‘shit trophies’.
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Yeah I think that's a bit of a nonsense argument.

What I would say personally though is I feel winning it when you're in it from the start can only be a good thing; winning it when you've dropped out of the CL though can be a bit bittersweet. It's still a positive but it only came about due to failure - that shouldn't be the standard to which any top club aspires.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Yeah I think that's a bit of a nonsense argument.

What I would say personally though is I feel winning it when you're in it from the start can only be a good thing; winning it when you've dropped out of the CL though can be a bit bittersweet. It's still a positive but it only came about due to failure - that shouldn't be the standard to which any top club aspires.
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Exactly, it’s bittersweet but if you drop down to it then allow your manager to lose in the Semifinals & Finals with the excuse, ‘It’s a shit trophy’ then to me that’s worse.

Any EPL side that goes out in the UCL group to the Europa should win it imo. You don’t write off your season when you drop out of the UCL in December.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Exactly, it’s bittersweet but if you drop down to it then allow your manager to lose in the Semifinals & Finals with the excuse, ‘It’s a shit trophy’ then to me that’s worse.

Any EPL side that goes out in the UCL group to the Europa should win it imo. You don’t write off your season when you drop out of the UCL in December.
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Yeah completely agree. A winning mentality can only be brought about by actually winning - especially when a manager has something to prove. Mourinho spoke regularly about how important winning the (then) Carling Cup was in his first season in English football - players buy into the methods and it can be key to establishing standards so as to go on and win bigger and better prizes.
 
Mindhunter said:
It certainly seems that way with the gradual lowering of standards, lack of decisiveness, and the nepotism on display with the coaching staff.

We are forever in transition. A top 4 finish is seen as success. Our season is hanging by a thread but the owners are playing moneyball. New ideas and strong characters are rejected in the name of “United Way” and “tradition”. Low performance is tolerated in the name of “standing by our managers”. Fergie casts a perennial shadow almost a decade after retirement. We are afraid to bring in fresh ideas and always tend to hire our alumni or promote from within.

That’s clearly our trajectory. We will become the rich man’s Arsenal at this rate in a few seasons.
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This is my biggest fear too.If we finish in the top 4,the owners might want to stick with him…I obviously want us to finish in the top 4,but I”m also worried about what that might mean for the future of the club…
 
Nikelesh Reddy said:
This is my biggest fear too.If we finish in the top 4,the owners might want to stick with him…I obviously want us to finish in the top 4,but I”m also worried about what that might mean for the future of the club…
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Yeah agreed. On the other hand individual games now are win-win for fans who want Ole out. If we beat Man City then it’s an amazing feeling. If we lose though then it could be a blessing in disguise as it will increase pressure on the board to make a change.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Chelsea actually make a good comparison, didn’t they batter Arsenal in the Europa League a few seasons ago? My issue is when fans act like winning the Europa, League Cup, FA Cup is in any way a negative or beneath us. I don’t want to be playing in the Europa League but when we’re in it we better fecking win it. The fact OfS hasn’t & kept his job is another discussion, I’d have sacked him for Sevilla alone.
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Yes, that's the main issue, actually... and in the long term it just makes clubs to lose the perception about what it takes to win trophies, any trophy really.

The process is the same, at any level: you need to beat any opponent in front of you, you need to manage expectations and emotions, and you need to have a plan for the semis and the final; you also need to win the final game, which is another story and a different chapter itself involving fine margins and luck with episodes.

Dismissing minor trophies as not worth the effort just mines the basic law of sport, that is beat the team in front of you... and makes players lazy, which will come back and haunt them when they play for the bigger trophies, because they lack the knowledge about what it takes to win.
 
It feels like were the Liverpool of old rather than Arsenal when Liverpool had decent players but were always crap scraping top 4 or finishing 5th they did win the CL once though
 
FFS….when is everyone going to finally realise we ain’t a football club anymore? We’re a merchandising behemoth that happens to kick a ball around a park a few times a month. If you’re here as a fan to win trophies you’re maybe following the wrong club…..buy a shirt , take a sedative and just wallow in the mediocrity.
 
Honestly, I'd love to see Wenger managing us right now, so we're probably already past the "slowly" stage. Wenger's 06-18 years over this any day of the week. Even during his bad years he had Arsenal playing something resembling cohesive football, and, when he had a good team like we do now, he played some good stuff.
 
That was an Arsenal display if I ever saw one. No fight, no heart, beaten before the whistle.
 
Bepi said:
Yes, that's the main issue, actually... and in the long term it just makes clubs to lose the perception about what it takes to win trophies, any trophy really.

The process is the same, at any level: you need to beat any opponent in front of you, you need to manage expectations and emotions, and you need to have a plan for the semis and the final; you also need to win the final game, which is another story and a different chapter itself involving fine margins and luck with episodes.

Dismissing minor trophies as not worth the effort just mines the basic law of sport, that is beat the team in front of you... and makes players lazy, which will come back and haunt them when they play for the bigger trophies, because they lack the knowledge about what it takes to win.
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Meant to respond to this yesterday but the game against Citeh really puts it all into perspective. You sum it up well.

Our last 3/4 years all we’ve heard is, ‘it’s a sh*t trophy so who cares that we lost’ & now people are surprised we’re failing miserably this season in the hardest competitions. You don’t employ a serial underachiever, give them every excuse in the book to then lumber them with Cristiano Ronaldo & tell him he must win the League. The expectation to win should have been there since day one but people want us to ‘only aim for the best’ without holding people accountable for failings in the ‘smaller’ tournaments.

We’ve turned into Arsenal in so much as we’ve become a delusional fanbase that want to tell you about the good old days, but don’t actually want to accept the climb may not be immediate. We’d be in a far better position after these last few years had we made sure whoever the manager is, knows it’s unacceptable to go without winning trophies. We are exactly where our fanbase have allowed us to be.
 
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