I'm tired Robbie
Are we slowly turning into another Arsenal?
- Thread starter Mindhunter
- Start date
Since Fergie retired they've won 4 FA Cups, we've won an FA Cup, a League Cup and a Europa League. I think we've done better than they have in the last 8 years.
A bit yes, but there is not much difference. And the last cup for Arsenal wasn't as long ago as for United, so the trend is not exactly United's friend.
To answer the question: The moment United signed a manager who thinks trophies are for egos and nothing else was the moment, when United stopped being an elite club with an elite mentality and become just another "top 4 is like a trophy" club like Arsenal are.
We've finished second in the league twice in that time and been to another Europa League final. We're not Arsenal.
There is no trophy for the second place. Your post essentially proves that you have the same mentality typically associated with Arsenal (being happy with something else than a title).
No it doesn't prove that. I never said I am happy with second, but United are a bigger club and better club than Arsenal over the years since Fergie has left. The examples of finishing above Arsenal and going further in European competitions was evidence of those points. I'm not saying United have been better than City, but they've definitely been better than Arsenal.
We are just as indecisive as them and have similar ambitions.
Until I see Ole, head in his hands, bent over double in the technical area hopping around like one of John Cleese' funny walks, I shall refuse to entertain such a thought
I'm pretty sure we became that when we appointed Moyes. Don't worry, just another 20 years before we win our trophy back
Fans satisfied with underachieving, never challenging and losing miserably like in EL cup surely make me terrified we end up like them. Our blind loyalty to inept manager and willingness to let go out best players before sacking him is very worrying.
Arsenal relied on a lot of young, cheap players and had a clear footballing philosophy. We're turning into 90's Liverpool.
Cheap players???
Which fans are those exactly?
Its been 4 years without trophy. We already are Arsenal on steriods
Whilst we still attract talent, no
Another false narrative. I heard this "we are turning into Arsenal" narrative regularly under Moyes, LvG and Jose. The truth is, we would have been PLEASED to have achieved a banker top four spot each year during that period, because it became the exception rather than the norm.
I keep reading about this supposed lack of ambition and lowering of standards, but it doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. We have spent the 3rd most money net in world football since 2014. We have some of the most expensive and highly-paid individuals in world football. Even on the pitch, sure, we're not the exceptional Utd of old, but even in a period whereby we're supposedly lurching from one crisis to another, we have finished 2nd twice, and its only the oil cheats down the road who have prevented us from picking up two more league titles.
The reason we have struggled recently is two-fold. One, the way our club was run was archaic, and basically relied on the authority, skill, personality and knowledge of two men who both left at a very similar time (SAF and Gill). Not only did new faces coming in face a challenge in living up to these men, they also had to do it against a backdrop of a non-existent footballing structure behind the scenes.
Second, the fact is the league is stronger now. During the SAF PL years, we generally had one competitor at a time, and until Chelsea came along, we could usually outspend them. We were dominant in the transfer market, if we wanted a player, we usually got them. Nowadays, we can't just cherry pick our rivals best players and we are competing with three or four of the best clubs in world football for trophies. Look down at the rest of the table. Teams like Brighton and Villa are amongst the top spenders in world football. There are no easy games in the PL now, you have to be on it every single week.
I keep reading about this supposed lack of ambition and lowering of standards, but it doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. We have spent the 3rd most money net in world football since 2014. We have some of the most expensive and highly-paid individuals in world football. Even on the pitch, sure, we're not the exceptional Utd of old, but even in a period whereby we're supposedly lurching from one crisis to another, we have finished 2nd twice, and its only the oil cheats down the road who have prevented us from picking up two more league titles.
The reason we have struggled recently is two-fold. One, the way our club was run was archaic, and basically relied on the authority, skill, personality and knowledge of two men who both left at a very similar time (SAF and Gill). Not only did new faces coming in face a challenge in living up to these men, they also had to do it against a backdrop of a non-existent footballing structure behind the scenes.
Second, the fact is the league is stronger now. During the SAF PL years, we generally had one competitor at a time, and until Chelsea came along, we could usually outspend them. We were dominant in the transfer market, if we wanted a player, we usually got them. Nowadays, we can't just cherry pick our rivals best players and we are competing with three or four of the best clubs in world football for trophies. Look down at the rest of the table. Teams like Brighton and Villa are amongst the top spenders in world football. There are no easy games in the PL now, you have to be on it every single week.
You absolutely have. They went into free fall after the stadium was built - and wenger kept them going. I suspect they probably miss him nowadays.
It’s definitely stronger, but that began when SAF brought English football back to prominence. Without him, I’m not sure clubs would have oligarchs as owners.
are you turning into Arsenal…. No. Your commercial deals alone will ensure you can compete with the best. And I’m saying this as a Liverpool fan
Herein lies the issue. Lots of fans want to run before we can even walk.
The fact we ‘should’ aiming for the EPL & UCL is the exact excuse OgS has survived on whilst losing to teams with far less resources. It’d be ideal to win those 2 but the winning mentality of the club isn’t based on 2 trophies alone, win what you’re in. No point aiming for the UCL when you regularly lose in the group stages.
You know, ‘progress’ & all that jazz.
Atleast they're still winning cups. We just sign expensive players and leave them on the bench.
If we need to ask the question, the answer is pretty clear : we already turned into Arsenal.
We're the late-Wenger stage Arsenal at this point. Better than most of the league, not as good as the title challengers. It could easily go either way from here. We could put our foot down and get ourselves back as challengers, or we could continue to drift and risk being overtaken by other teams, especially Newcastle, who will surely be a top four challenger in 3/4 years.
How long has it been since Arsenal have won a league title? We’ll probably end up matching that, to be honest.
Why are you using City as a barometer? IF we beat City we will be 5-8 points off 1st place.
We are Arsene's bad Arsenal on the pitch, press and be aggressive and we're always liable to give the opposition team a gift.
Proving my point further. Yes, you can take Arsenal as the benchmark and conclude you are better, but in the long run nobody cares about who became second or third, history books only care about title winners.
The moment you stop taking titles as the benchmark and start arguing about league positions you stop having elite mentality in my eyes.
I'm not so sure.
In my opinion and I will assign points to argue my case - I rate the competitions thusly (most to least prestigious):
CL: 6 pts
Premier League: 5 pts
FA Cup 4 pts:
Europa League: 3 pts
Carabou (League Cup): 2 pts
So Arsenal would be on 12 pts and Man Utd. 9 pts.
Just my view of course....
Yeah I was about to say. It's really nothing like Arsenal. We're spending so much on players all we need is for the board to make the right choice of manager at some point. Is that so hard?
Daft to say the FA Cup is above Europa League, that is nostalgia talking...
I've just realised this is a debate I don't want to have. What have we become.
Under Ole we will never become the next Arsenal.
We'd have to improve our football and win minor cups for that to happen.
We'd have to improve our football and win minor cups for that to happen.
Don't forget the coveted Wenger Top 4 Trophy - must be worth at least 3 points
5yrs since Arsenal were last in the CL
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I’m happy to see another doom and gloom thread
Mate, you support Hannover 96. What are you on about?
Premier League > Champions League
Europa League > FA Cup
You probably rate FA Cup over Europa League because Huddersfield will never be in the Europa League. At least you're in the FA Cup. I don't know, what's the furthest Huddersfield have ever gotten in the FA Cup? 5th round?
Absolutely not!! There’s nothing slow about it.
And before that they hadn't won a trophy for 10 years.
Yeah, as many have said - we're already there pretty much.
Hell in Anthony Martial we have the most Arsenaly player to have never played for Arsenal.
Hell in Anthony Martial we have the most Arsenaly player to have never played for Arsenal.
I don't think so & not for me - the quality of player we currently have is a different level to anything Arsenal ever had.
Varane, Ronaldo, Rashford, Greenwood, Pogba, Bruno, Fred, McTominay, Maguire, De Gea, Wan Bissaka, Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof etc -
Not everyone is perfect but ultimately this is a club people expected a title win from this year or even a close title challenge until the last few weeks.
Was that ever about Arsenal in the last decade?
We just need a good manager to take this club on.
Good managers have come to clubs in a variety of ways and hopefully it one day does and as soon as possible come to us.
Hopefully, the Glazers and Woodward are able to stop being slow and making mistakes because - good players do not last forever at a club.
That's when you turn to Arsenal.
Varane, Ronaldo, Rashford, Greenwood, Pogba, Bruno, Fred, McTominay, Maguire, De Gea, Wan Bissaka, Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof etc -
Not everyone is perfect but ultimately this is a club people expected a title win from this year or even a close title challenge until the last few weeks.
Was that ever about Arsenal in the last decade?
We just need a good manager to take this club on.
Good managers have come to clubs in a variety of ways and hopefully it one day does and as soon as possible come to us.
Hopefully, the Glazers and Woodward are able to stop being slow and making mistakes because - good players do not last forever at a club.
That's when you turn to Arsenal.
We had Fergie, they had Wenger.
Liverpool now have Klopp and City have Pep.......... No coincidence the clubs have turned on their heads.
Liverpool now have Klopp and City have Pep.......... No coincidence the clubs have turned on their heads.