Are we really this bad?

Laurencio said:
They will want revenge for pre-season. We are going to get utterly destroyed.
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Sadly I agree and don’t expect us to get anything out of the game, however we know anything can happen in football.

The point is that a week is a long time in the football world and in the very unlikely scenario we pull off a win, that would be huge.
 
fergiewherearethou said:
The reality is that the set of players we've got are the worst version possible of themselves, for the last year or so.

Let's take Rashford for example, he cannot play the type of football ETH or Rangnick tried, he is just not suited to that. He can only play well in a fast paced, counter attacking team. I think the same goes for Sancho, without the space available they are both useless.
Bruno and Ericksen are 10's, they can't play the CM role in a midfield of 3 or in a midfield of 2.
De Gea and Maguire they simply cannot play from the back with short passing, they were being exposed even in Ole's time with mistakes over and over. Also Maguire can't play in a high line where the defensive line sits 10m in front of the half pitch line.
And the list can go on, our players are simply misused and ETH does not have the time nor the liberty to ship out that many of them and bring others. He either adapts to what we have or he is gone soon.

Even managers much better than ETH struggled at first when trying to implement their style, eg. Guardiola, Klopp and even Conte but I think they quickly adapted and made the transition to their own style much slower without exposing their players limitations.
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100%. Every single one of our player has limitations. They don't have the quality or intelligence to play high pressing or playing out from the back. Most of our players look very weak technically, lacking stamina and lacking leadership. Ten Hag somehow has to find a winning formula out of them, whilst putting his own preferred style and philosophies to one side until there's a big enough overhaul of players to start playing his way. If that means going 5 at the back and shutting up shop, so be it. Being defensively solid and organised has to be top priority from now on with this lot.
 
mitchmouse said:
I said on the day Ole was given the job full time (weeks ahead of when the suits said a decision would be made), that huge damage could be done to the club. I loved Ole as a player but it really wasn't rocket science to spot he was totally wrong for the job. By comparison, keeping Jose in post wouldn't have been nearly so bad - and boy, has he turned out to be right about many things
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Jose absolutely needed to go. Ole was surprisingly a great caretaker to come in at the time, but we needed a top manager coming in after him rather than giving him the job fulltime. The fact that things ultimately got even worse under him doesn't excuse Jose's own huge failures.
 
Yes, and it's 90% mental. A lot of them are broken and suffering from the bad defeats and if we keep playing the same lot together it's not gonna get better - get quality additions in and use the youth also with 2-3 of current players, we have a lot to do off the pitch to get them mentally back again.
 
JuriM said:
Yes, and it's 90% mental. A lot of them are broken and suffering from the bad defeats and if we keep playing the same lot together it's not gonna get better - get quality additions in and use the youth also with 2-3 of current players, we have a lot to do off the pitch to get them mentally back again.
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Finally someone talking sense, totally agree it’s mental, these players can’t handle the weight of expectancy. We need Varane Bailey at CB and V Lindelof at RB or CDM just to get Maguire out of the team we need to be much stronger in a core. I’d drop D D Gea and play T Heaton as well
 
We definitely aren't bad enough on paper to get thrashed by Brighton and Brentford. We need to back ten hag but he needs to not get us relegated with a top 6 collection of players too, there is no excuse for yesterday
 
I do wonder what EtH is seeing each day in training. Is he genuinely surprised about these two games or could he see the performances coming based on what he sees in training?

Whilst it has to be a large part mental with these players, I don't think that they can ever get back to their respective bests, whether it with us or their next club. They've been sulking so long that they've regressed to a level that they can't come all the way back from.
 
We have players that are really not suited to the ETH brand of football, and his football is in line with a universally accepted modern approach. We have a lot of players more suited to playing basic counter-attack football, not possession football which require a lot more technical skills and patience.

Solskjaer talked the talk with trying to be more like Klopp, but boy was he not great at picking out the players to try and be like that. Maguire is too slow to play high line, AWB can’t attack, James is a pace merchant thats only good for counter-attacking etc.

DDG has a lot of weaknesses. Rashford and Martial are more suited to counter-attack. Fred and McTominay are absolutely not a midfield pairing that fit modern football, especially McTominay who’s a bull in a china shop with the ball at his feet.
 
MadDogg said:
It started under Ole, who spent years mollycoddling most of the players and developing a dressing room culture that couldn't handle criticism. Which worked at first to rebuild confidence after Mourinho, but ultimately left the dressing room in an even more fragile state with far too many players who don't have the mental strength to get over setbacks. That's why it all went to shit last season under Ole, continued under Rangnick and so far is continuing under ETH. I don't see it changing until there is a significant change of personnel in the dressing room in one go that can completely reset the dressing room culture. A couple of players here and there won't do as over the months they slowly degenerate to the level around them.
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Ironically, the mental strength and coming back from set backs was probably at it’s highest that it’s been post Fergie in the season we finished second and that away run. I don’t care if we should have finished fourth that season or whatever, I’m talking specifically about coming back from adversity.

Personally, I think it was the tactical limitations of Ole that cost this group, rather than his man management style. He couldn’t find a way to build a good team with Ronaldo in it and confidence drained from the players as it’s limitations for were further exposed.

Either way, you’re right about the culture that’s now in the dressing room. I have said in posts all summer that this will be ETH’s biggest task and it’s got incredibly harder now. He really needed a strong start to get the players behind him.
 
No. I'm not defending it but I'm not sure it's reflective of where we are. But there are problems. We have so many cowards. So many players who are happy to hide during matches. It's not even so much about quality as work rate. I team much less 'on paper' talented than our starting XI yesterday would have done better had they worked hard.

We have players living off past glories on and off the field. We need to inject a good number of players from the academy into the side, not to improve it technically but just to increase work rate
 
I think we are that bad. I’m not an international football team expert and trusted people when they said sancho was an immense talent. I trust my eyes more now. He’s slow and no where the level he was touted to be. I think we have a lot of players who people said where good but just aren’t.
 
It feels like the penny is finally dropping with a lot of fans.

Yes, we are this bad. I said last season and maybe even earlier, I would have no issue with never seeing any of these players play for the club again. After yesterday, I would only like to see Malacia in the club colours in the future.

They are either not good enough at the sport that they are paid to play or do not give a shit, or both. To a man, they are a disgrace and should be docked a months wages for the 'effort' they have put in over the past 7 days.


We are obviously not going to replace them all I what remains of this window so I'd plump for just playing the kids and leaving the first team players with no doubt that they need to move on. Start again and rebuild.

The main issue with this is the fact that the club is ran by absolute knob heads who have no idea what they are doing so we'd only end up in the same dump we are now if we start to sign new players.

Luckily, fan revolt seems to be ever closer. I only hope as a fanbase, we can pull in the same direction as one.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
We definitely aren't bad enough on paper to get thrashed by Brighton and Brentford. We need to back ten hag but he needs to not get us relegated with a top 6 collection of players too, there is no excuse for yesterday
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What players from Utd would Brentford and Brighton take to fit into the way they play?

There is your answer. We are bad enough to get thrashed by these clubs!
 
I actually think we are seeing a slight mixing of new problems and old problems.

Clearly some of the confidence issues from last season are still there but in each of the first two games we’ve also seen Fred and Eriksen caught by the pass from De Gea. Thats clearly a Ten Hag instruction.

I have a lot of faith in Ten Hag but we are seeing some early naivety from him. Expecting Fred or Eriksen to pick up the ball from the goalie when they’ve either played much higher in their career or just never been that trusted is a bit foolish.

I think he needs time to bring his philosophy into the team but we should maybe be pragmatic and kick long for the first 60 mins. Let them opposition tire, play football in their half and work on playing out in training.
 
It’s like they hate the club and don’t want to do the basics like run. Alarm bells should have been ringing when Ralf came in and they wouldn’t even press for him, a manager who was fundamental in developing that style of play.
 
The shirts too heavy for them.

Not bad players individually but no strength of character to handle the pressure which is now at an unprecedented levels for us in PL terms.

We'll be bottom with 0 points from 3 games next week. Erik has one hell of a job on his hands
 
Unfortunately, there is no single point of failure for United to blame. Each issue feeds the next one, and it will take a lot of effort, time, and resources to get Manchester United back to playing at a top level.

The Squad

First, I'm not sure what (ETH)Erik Ten Hag's plan is for this group of players; they are mentally broken and have no drive, fight, or desire to play for this team. I rewatched clips of De Gea's passes yesterday, showing how poor they are on a technical level: In the clip, they tried to play from the back but could not. They are too slow, indecisive, and have poor decision-making regarding passing.

With the current state of the squad, there is no competition for places. It's virtually impossible to drop a player or create a competitive environment. I also think these players have been through too much failure together, and they are mentally weak as a group.

There are no consequences to playing poorly; you get your new contract, keep your spot on the team and stay in your luxury position at United. This group of players has played under 4-5 managers, and nothing has changed. United used to be ruthless in this department, dropping and selling players on a whim. Yet we are like a pension-funded retirement home for aged and disabled players; Mata, Jones, Bailey, Lingard, and Shaw should have been sent packing years ago.

The Coach.

ETH is delusional if he thinks he can play his brand of football with this squad in the premier league. I do not doubt that if he had the right players and time, he would have United playing at a top level.I'm wondering if some of this is his fault. I don't know what United promised him in transfers or what he said to get the role. In either case, both situations reflect poorly on him.

He is making the same mistakes Ole and Mou made in trusting players like Martial, Shaw, Maguire, etc

Suppose United followed through with the transfer targets. What does ETH think he could have accomplished with this squad? What was he hoping for with the three additions he wanted?I don't see FDJ playing well in the current squad, next to Fred or Mct. Lisandro Martinez has proven to be a potential liability at CB. It's not hard to improve on Shaw.

Unless we make some excellent additions to the squad in the next three weeks, or he somehow manages to transform Maguire into a world-class CB, I don't think he will be part of United by Xmas.

The Recruitment Policy

Out of his three planned additions, one failed, and then panic purchases of a 33yo racist in Arnautovic and an uninspiring signing of Rabiot, both players famous for disrupting dressing rooms. Don't address any main problems with the squad as a whole.Over the last ten years, the recruitment policy has been reactive and poorly planned with no consistent or overall high-level strategy for the football that needs to be played at a high level.

The previous mix of managers had utterly different football strategies and approaches, and United gave each of them complete control over the style and quality of the signed player. The transfers were backed by people who know nothing about football. This poor requirement policy has resulted in this unbalanced mess of a team. We have too many last-minute signings, too much money spent on a single player per window, chasing one player for the entire transfer window while rivals wrap up business early and fast in pre-season.

United is living in the past with; 'the manager should control everything football structure'; this was how football clubs were run years ago. Most modern clubs use a technical/football director to look over strategies like the style of football, which manager should come in, and the profile of players that should be signed.

Ralf Ragnick was an awful coach, but he was only a stop-gap for six months, and he should have stayed in a DOF role, or United should have hired a proper Football Director after he left. In the six months, he made more sense than John Murtagh has ever shown in his role over the last number of years.


The Owners

Glazers are leeches; they saddled the club with massive debt and currently take around 20-30 million dollars out in dividends yearly. They have no idea of what a football club means to a community or the history a club has.They have no football intelligence and don't understand what is happening in the boardroom of United. The club has fallen behind on an infrastructure level with our aged training facilities and a rusted and leaky stadium.They are relying on a time when we had Sir Alex's genius, as it was his style of football, so he always knew the players and had complete control. This shows that the club owners have no clue and are reluctant to make structural changes that could cost United money.

We need massive investment, and this will not come from the Glazers. They must set out a proper plan publicly for the fans or leave.
 
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Woziak said:
Finally someone talking sense, totally agree it’s mental, these players can’t handle the weight of expectancy. We need Varane Bailey at CB and V Lindelof at RB or CDM just to get Maguire out of the team we need to be much stronger in a core. I’d drop D D Gea and play T Heaton as well
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Yeah that's our best CB partnership but we won't see it play regularly in a million years due to Maguires privileges
 
I look at Bruno, Rashford, Sancho hell even Maguire and know there’s better than what they’re showing. You would understand after a bad second half of last season if confidence was low but when they’re one of the lowest working and running sides in the league it’s hard to feel sorry for any of those players, they’re simply not willing to put the work in.
 
I am in my 50s and can not remember any top European club whose performance show such disparity between the supposed level of players and the football played. And the last 6 months has been comically bad. So, yes, it has been as bad as one can imagine it.

Sad that we got here, as it will be harder to convince top players to come.
 
I'd say the only good news is that a fair number of these players have shown to be able to compete at this level. Varane, Shaw, Bruno, Sancho, Eriksen - none of these are bad players per se, and have shown (some recently) excellent ability.

BUT, football is a team sport, and we simply cannot field an XI at present without huge deficiencies. People say ETH needs to a sort a system, but that system will include Dalot, Fred, McTominay, Rashford and Ronaldo - because we don't have any options that are better. We have 2 RBs - both terrible. We have 1 fit striker - who can't play in a modern system. We have 1 left winger, who is Rashford. We have literally 2 senior central midfielders in our squad.

We got rid of 7 first teamers in the summer, and have replaced, like-for-like, one of them (Mata for Eriksen. Or Pogba for Eriksen).

The only thing that brings me any hope is that we do have some talent here, just desperately needs augmenting with new, better players in key positions. Would Sancho look better with a decent RB? Yes. Would the whole team look better with a midfield? Of course. The challenge has been put to the execs, let's see what they do.
 
I’d love to see what would happen if we took the lead in a game somehow. Right now we’re so mentally fragile that it’s game over if we concede. The optimist in me thinks that yesterday’s game would be completely different if not for De Gea’s howler. Not looking good for Liverpool though.
 
Yes. A lot of these players really are this bad or at least nowhere near top level and it has been clear for quite sometime. Dalot, Maguire, Mctominay, Fred, Wan Bissaka are all severely limited players who are no better than mid-table level. But our problem is that instead of admitting the truth early, cutting our losses like other clubs do and moving on, we hold on and hold on and allow the players to fester like parasites on fat wages till it is too late and then they leave for nothing ot get released. Left to me, all five of those players I mentioned would have been on the market this summer for cheap. They have been given so many chances to prove themselves and have been unable to do it. Try as they might, they have run up against the brick wall that is their limited ability. Nothing will change there. Cut your losses and move on.
 
Ragnick tried to implement his playing style and quickly gave up and reverted to a more basic system. Seems like the same issue for Ten Haag. These players are untrainable. Bunch of morons.
 
It's a collection of lack and effort poor quality and a bad mentality.

We concede once then concede 2,3,4 so quickly. We just can't clear our heads and say 0-0 lets go win it.

We just don't work hard enough as a team either.
 
So I'm watching United's goals from the 93/94 season and it's honestly like I'm watching players from a different galaxy. The first touches, the crosses, the passing, everything looks so effortless compared to this current team. These players are so bad at the basics and fundamentals.
 
rimaldo said:
i feel like each of these players have burst into an important meeting at work. pushed me into a swivel chair, pulled the hair at the back of my head to force my face upwards and my mouth open, and then drooled into it.
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Really? Personally I don't feel nearly as horny as that but ok.
 
Of course these players are not good enough to win the PL…but if what we mean by “good enough” relates to talent and not character, these players are good enough to have beaten Brentford.

But character is what these players lack to compete with squads like Brighton and Brentford, which have lesser players but players whose work ethic is vastly superior to these prima donnas. Our players took the pitch yesterday thinking that victory was in the bag. Brentford players took the pitch yesterday to earn victory.
 
Elcabron said:
I think I have every right to be fuming to be fair. I don't expect to be getting beat 4-0 by relegation fodder, I don't care if it's his second match or his 200th, if this happened at Real Madrid he would be gone. Obviously he inherited a huge amount of issues but there is plenty that is his own doing - buying Martinez instead of a midfielder, keeping Dalot and DDG around when they are both horrifically bad, trying to play high line with Maguire, playing Ericksen as false nine in one game then deep lying midfielder the next when he is neither. The dog on the street knew how shit some of these players are but ETH for some reason had to see it with his own eyes and give them yet another chance.

I have zero sympathy for him. He didn't want RR staying around, great advice on tap he could have availed of. He hasn't so much as dropped a player from the squad, players are still playing without consequences. Getting rid of three or four players off the bat should have been his first act of duty. We needed decisive action, he has been here since June and we haven't seen any of it yet bar an attempt to sign Arounotivic, feck me.

If pool beat us 4 or 5 nil, we should sack him. This shouldn't be a training ground for up and coming managers and some philosophy at all costs bull shit.
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Bloody hell :wenger:
 
TheGodsInRed said:
Rangnick tried to implement his playing style and quickly gave up and reverted to a more basic system. Seems like the same issue for Ten Haag. These players are untrainable. Bunch of morons.
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I feel it's because they know they have the backing of the board OVER the manager.

Mental if so.
 
It's extremely painful to watch this side at the minute. Their confidence is shot to pieces but they are also so mentally weak to overcome any setback.

We always look like we concede goals in a quick blitz by the opposition which says it all about how mentally weak they are and unable to pick themselves up to fight for a result. I know people go on about that away run but it really was a very false run because as soon as fans were back in the ground it only lasted a few games.

Could it be that Covid, and behind closed doors matches was the worst thing to happen to United? Drained the finances, made the club think things are on the up with Ole and the players, structure etc.
 
Our "star players" outside Ronaldo and Bruno can't even get into contention for their international squads. It's not rocket science.

We're not a top club anymore, remember how we felt about Arsenal under Wenger at the end? That's how other fans see us. The majority of our senior players are cowards who've folded multiple times in finals and semi finals.
 
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Were Liverpool ever this bad during their very long transition phase? I always remember them giving us a really good game. Maybe its just a matter of perspective but I can't remember any of the top sides ever experiencing such a long mediocre spell. I'm not talking about trophies here, just the level of football.

Even looking at how other sides in the league play, ignoring that small patch when Bruno and Greenwood were turning everything they touch into gold, I get the impression that most sides in the league look more organised than Manchester United and the only thing that kept us above them in recent years were these individual moments produced by just a couple of players who were really in form.
 
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