Are we really this bad?

Collectively, as a team, yes.

Our players are currently worse than the sum of their parts. It's like they don't enjoy playing together and when things go south, some go into hiding or start hesitating because they're afraid of making mistakes, which slows down play and makes us easy to play against. They're utterly broken and the team desperately needs open heart surgery.

People like De Gea, Martial, Shaw or Rashford (not exhaustive) who have been here for a while need to move on so we can get fresh air in. I also don't think Maguire is the man who can pull them together in the right direction. I hope for his own sake that he's stripped off the captaincy.
 
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OleGunnar20 said:
Who in the medium / long term is worth keeping from our current squad, excluding youth?

I'd say: Malacia, Varane, Martinez, Sancho, Eriksen, Bruno, maybe Fred?

There's just nothing there. This squad is truly, truly abysmal.
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Malacia, Martinez and Eriksen can be spared because they are new. They may become squad players or sold later.
The rest have had enough time and are not up to the task.

We need a full clear out of at least 15 players.
 
Never been worse in 40+ years following United. Never thought things could get this bad this soon after Fergie.
If relegation would guarantee the end of the Glazers then where is death's sting?
 
It depends on what type of football you want to play. A pragmatic manager can set us up to be defensively sound and try to get results. That likely means little to no pressing and basically two blocks of four. Hit them on the counter. That can work to get results but ultimately it will leave us no better off than last year.

We can blame EtH or any other manager but with this group I am not sure Pep or Klopp would do much better. Too many players constantly making grave mistakes and putting in little effort. The margins are too fine for any manager to succeed for a prolonged period of time.
 
The only impressive thing about these players are their salaries
 
Quinze said:
Collectively, as a team, yes.

Our players are currently worse than the sum of their parts. It's like they don't enjoy playing together and when things go south, some go into hiding or start hesitating because they're afraid of making mistakes, which slows down play and makes us easy to play against. They're utterly broken and the team desperately needs open heart surgery.

People like De Gea, Martial, Shaw or Rashford (not exhaustive) who have been here for a while need to move on so we can get fresh air in. I also don't think Maguire is the man who can pull them together in the right direction. I hope for his own sake that he's stripped off the captaincy.
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Totally agree. We look obliterated mentally and combined with that we're really poor technically. It's legit the worst United squad I've lived through and I can't see an immediate way out.
 
Lentwood said:
Yes and no. We're bad, but we look worse because we're trying to play like a good team
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This is a really good way of putting it.

Not only are the players seemingly totally unable to play the sort of modern, high press possession football that I assume Ten Haag wants, but they also seem to believe that their inflated pay packets and social media followers means they have the talent to outplay 'lesser' sides without putting in the graft to do the basics.

Along with that, the two other obvious things for me are that 1) we lack so much quality in key positions and 2) the squad mentality is the weakest I've ever seen from a United side. No leaders, no fight, they seem to play perpetually on the brink of PTSD and one mistake / conceded goal brings the collective weight of every negative experience and past mistake back and they shrink within themselves.
 
Pickle85 said:
Totally agree. We look obliterated mentally and combined with that we're really poor technically. It's legit the worst United squad I've lived through and I can't see an immediate way out.
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That's the main issue. I honestly think the Leicester, Liverpool, Man City & Watford run permanently destroyed this group of players. There was way no way they were ever going to recover from that.

I think as soon as they go 2 down, they're broken from now and I honestly don't think there's a way to fix it.
 
Rangnick was 100% on point when he said we require open heart surgery. Pity our owners either don't have the will or ambition to fix our problems. Seven away losses on a row, off the back of our worst season in the EPL. Nine starters from last season in the team today. It was never going to get better based off that.
 
Yes and have been since last season with no action taken. The manager isn't a miracle worker. Anyone could see this coming.
 
With a bit of distance it really hasn't gotten any better. I'm thinking if we finish the season with the same squad we've started it there's a real danger we finish outside the top ten. Not only are they not good enough, player for player, but they don't have the stomach for a fight that teams in a relegation scrap need. Worrying times.
 
We made our squad way worse. Not sure why anyone thought we'd improve tbh

Obviously this is worse than we feared but was somewhat obvious we'd really struggle
 
Pickle85 said:
With a bit of distance it really hasn't gotten any better. I'm thinking if we finish the season with the same squad we've started it there's a real danger we finish outside the top ten. Not only are they not good enough, player for player, but they don't have the stomach for a fight that teams in a relegation scrap need. Worrying times.
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If this goes on for another five games or so, I don't think an early noughties Leeds-esque steep decline scenario is completely off the table.
 
with this team, we can only play low block football and counter attack. forget about ball playing high pressing football.
 
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Of the players who played yesterday I’d keep Malacia and Martinez around, maybe Eriksen. The rest could go. We’re that desperate for a whole fresh new start. It’s desperately needed. This group of players is rotten, I’ve never seen anything quite like it at the top level before.
 
Judas said:
Of the players who played yesterday I’d keep Malacia and Martinez around, maybe Eriksen. The rest could go. We’re that desperate for a whole fresh new start. It’s desperately needed. This group of players is rotten, I’ve never seen anything quite like it at the top level before.
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10 in 10 out.
 
Yes, we are this bad. Before the summer break we lose 4-0 to Brighton, and then after a transfer window, a long break and new management we go out and lose 4-0 to Brentford.

The facts are that we now have way too many players of low quality to be successful. Would it be hyperbole to say that some of our key players don't even belong in the Premier League? Which clubs in the PL would line up to take McTominay, Fred and Dalot if we were to get rid of them? Similarly, Maguire has the ball-playing abilities of a Championship player, Rashford has the decision making of a Championship player, etc. etc. When you add all of these deficiencies up, it will show in the results.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Yes, we are this bad. Before the summer break we lose 4-0 to Brighton, and then after a transfer window, a long break and new management we go out and lose 4-0 to Brentford.

The facts are that we now have way too many players of low quality to be successful. Would it be hyperbole to say that some of our key players don't even belong in the Premier League? Which clubs in the PL would line up to take McTominay, Fred and Dalot if we were to get rid of them? Similarly, Maguire has the ball-playing abilities of a Championship player, Rashford has the decision making of a Championship player, etc. etc. When you add all of these deficiencies up, it will show in the results.
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maybe forest or newcastle might take them.
 
Is John Murtogh best in class?
Is Darren Fletcher best in class?

These top positions that are driving massive club decisions needs to be reviewed.

How does City get dedicated and experienced DOFs into the club and we settle for an Ed Woodward stooge.
 
There was one stage yesterday in the second half when Brentford had four players unmarked in the 6 yard box (or just outside)
We had several (possibly 6 or 7) players marking no-one or marking their teammate.

We are a team void of all confidence and belief. A team that knows no matter what they do the squad depth is so weak that they won't get dropped.
This all stemms from the very top.
 
We need to sell 15 players and bring in another 10 players.

Here's the list:

Sell - Mctominay, Fred, Bruno, Maguire, Shaw, Rashford, De Gea, Martial, Dalot, AWB, Bailly, VDB, Lindelof, Chong, Tuanzebe

Buy - DM, CM, RB, RW, CF, GK, CB, DM (backup), CF (backup), CB/RB (backup)

GK: new GK, Heaton
RB - new RB, new backup
LB - Malacia, Fernandez
CB - Varane, new backup
CB - Martinez/new CB, new backup
DM - new DM, Garner/backup
CM - new CM, Zidane/backup
AM - Eriksen, Meijbri/new AM
RW - new RW, Daillo/backup
LW - Sancho, Garnacho
CF - Ronaldo/new CF, new backup
 
The players individually aren’t that bad, it’s just that they don’t make for a particularly good team.

Players have been hoarded over many years with no specific plan in place; they aren’t very well suited to each other and a last-minute, chancer approach to transfers has meant we’re overstocked in some areas at times, and very light in others.

There’s also a hell of a lot of water under the bridge now. The hoarding mentality meant bad attitudes in the dressing room were allowed to fester, and I also think the events of last season really broke what was left. Months of in-fighting, bitching, and having a target on their backs means their confidence has completely gone, and many of them have probably given up now.
 
Majority of these players need a fresh start as much as the club does. In a way some I wouldn't even resent that much if they left and did better at a new club, at this point it wouldn't surprise me, and it something that can happen in life. Everything is so rotten, we can't carry on like this without massive changes.
 
A lot of this boils down to the toxic culture at the club. We reward mediocrity massively, we have players who have proved nothing or very little in the game on huge wages. They get a fresh start every couple of years after getting another manager sacked. Our players attitudes stink, they don’t run for each other, they have zero fight and they lack intelligence or any self pride.

We need gutting, I would rather see our youth players getting a chance and I have been saying that for 2 years. Get rid of the players who can’t be bothered and are failing again and again.

Rashford
Shaw
Dalot
Maguire
Fred
Mctominay

That lot there could all disappear tomorrow and they wouldn’t be missed. What a statement it would be to bin that lot as wel. Major reset. Or as Ralf put it, (and he was right) open heart surgery.
 
Lay said:
What does Sancho do?
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He's the anti-Bruno. Will not enforce himself on the match, but still has great technical ability to combine with others. I like his decision making in the box too.
 
Pickle85 said:
Apologies if this duplicates another thread or three in existence, but so much of my thinking recently has been: 'the players aren't really that bad, they've just stopped playing for the manager' or 'we've spent absurd money on this lot, it can't be a lack of ability, has to be something else'.

Watching today made me worry that, man for man, we actually aren't any better, talent wise, than Brentford et al.
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The question is too unspecific which is why, I believe, the replies are based on various different interpretations of what could have been meant.

a) Bad enough to loose 4:0 to Brentford yesterday? Yes, obviously because it was not a fluke result but well deserved.

b) This bad individually? No, these players are not on Top4 probably not even on Top6 level but individually most of them - individually, not as a team - would likely get a key role in the Brentford team that beat them handily. Eriksen actually had it there last lesson.

c) This bad mentally? Yes, this is where the whole thread agreed and everyone can see why.

d) This bad as a TEAM? Yes and no. Ten Haag is still finding his feet and you would think he could get more tunes out of this squad - as bad as it is - than two crushing defeats on the trot against mid/bottom table sides.
That said I think it’s a perfect storm of:
- brainless recruiting (buying players based on names and highlight reels or coach’s favorites instead of character and long term team role fit - resulting in 63 center backs, a GK with a playstyle suited to <50% ball possession, no holding midfielders, no capable right back, no consistent forward in his prime etc)
- terrible coaching for years
- very low confidence among the whole squad (I don’t believe the „only care about the pay cheque“ thing - they are just like deers in headlights currently which makes it seem like they don’t care)
- three very different coaches in a very short period time: Ole wrapped them in cotton wool, Ragnick shred the wool to pieces and threw them in front of a bus and Ten Haag tried to throw the confetti that was left on a pitch at Brentford and expected it to play possession football like prime Barca.
 
The reality is that the set of players we've got are the worst version possible of themselves, for the last year or so.

Let's take Rashford for example, he cannot play the type of football ETH or Rangnick tried, he is just not suited to that. He can only play well in a fast paced, counter attacking team. I think the same goes for Sancho, without the space available they are both useless.
Bruno and Ericksen are 10's, they can't play the CM role in a midfield of 3 or in a midfield of 2.
De Gea and Maguire they simply cannot play from the back with short passing, they were being exposed even in Ole's time with mistakes over and over. Also Maguire can't play in a high line where the defensive line sits 10m in front of the half pitch line.
And the list can go on, our players are simply misused and ETH does not have the time nor the liberty to ship out that many of them and bring others. He either adapts to what we have or he is gone soon.

Even managers much better than ETH struggled at first when trying to implement their style, eg. Guardiola, Klopp and even Conte but I think they quickly adapted and made the transition to their own style much slower without exposing their players limitations.
 
kouroux said:
It was 11kms by the 75th min so they still managed to run more in a game where we were chasing
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I suppose we do have Ronaldo in our team and Shaw who's not exactly Forest Gump. Liverpool next week could be another blood bath.
 
Oh yes! But as Gary Neville said: "It's a great football club, it's a magic football club, and I couldn't be more proud to support the club but at this moment in time, it's really desperate."
 
fergiewherearethou said:
The reality is that the set of players we've got are the worst version possible of themselves, for the last year or so.

Let's take Rashford for example, he cannot play the type of football ETH or Rangnick tried, he is just not suited to that. He can only play well in a fast paced, counter attacking team. I think the same goes for Sancho, without the space available they are both useless.
Bruno and Ericksen are 10's, they can't play the CM role in a midfield of 3 or in a midfield of 2.
De Gea and Maguire they simply cannot play from the back with short passing, they were being exposed even in Ole's time with mistakes over and over. Also Maguire can't play in a high line where the defensive line sits 10m in front of the half pitch line.
And the list can go on, our players are simply misused and ETH does not have the time nor the liberty to ship out that many of them and bring others. He either adapts to what we have or he is gone soon.

Even managers much better than ETH struggled at first when trying to implement their style, eg. Guardiola, Klopp and even Conte but I think they quickly adapted and made the transition to their own style much slower without exposing their players limitations.
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Great post. He still has time to change things somewhat however but the concern is he might not have the faintest idea how to play/coach a different more pragmatic brand of football. Also does he have the balls to drop the players you mentioned? No on the evidence so far.

Surely McLaren sees this?
 
We have to start playing with our kids. If they're good enough they're old enough. I really don't understand why we persevere with the shower of shyte that is our first team, it's not as if the results could be any worse!
 
Zippycup said:
It's his second game.
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Ah yes, of course. I forgot. That has totally changed my outlook, I'm now delighted with yesterday's result against a team who will likely be back in the championship in the next couple of years. We might end up playing them in that league.
 
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