I don't think Chelsea will regress at all. Neither would City nor would Liverpool. With better managers than we have with even the same level of players, it's logical that they would be the ones challenging for the trophies.
Are we going to be put back in our place next season?
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We sat back a bit in last 4 games, getting 4 instead of possible 7-9 perhaps. But as you said we are 70-point team, possibly in the high 70s or even low 80. I have repeated this yardstick before, you need average 2 points per game to be in comfortable Top 4, and a better ratio to win. So 76 is the yard stick for 2nd or 3rd, 80s to win.
Whether we will need to FIGHT for Top 4, depends on how well the other are doing, and how close are the 5-7 ranking teams. Which by recent standard, are never easy.
Chelsea have underperformed for a couple of seasons, mainly due to Frank Lampard being an atrocious manager. They always had the players and the squad to be challenging. They will be a threat next year.
City are City. Financially doped up to their eyeballs. They will always be there, it’s virtually impossible not to be when you have 23 players who cost £50m each.
Personally I think Liverpool’s title win will be their only one this decade. It all came together for them thanks to masterful planning by Michael Edwards and brilliant management by Klopp. They assembled a bit of an odd-job team on the cheap (in net spend terms) and managed to get the players to peak together at just the right time playing a very organised and aggressive manner of football that suited the players and Anfield. I can’t see them being able to replicate that again and I feel it will be top four battles for them from here.
United have one big advantage and that is the age profile of our squad. All of our best players are mid/early 20s and we have the likes of Diallo, Hannibal, Garner, Elanga etc...all on the verge of making the breakthrough. This gives us the luxury of time when it comes to building a squad. It also gives us the luxury of focus. If we know several positions are nailed down for the next few years we can spend big in problem areas.
City are City. Financially doped up to their eyeballs. They will always be there, it’s virtually impossible not to be when you have 23 players who cost £50m each.
Personally I think Liverpool’s title win will be their only one this decade. It all came together for them thanks to masterful planning by Michael Edwards and brilliant management by Klopp. They assembled a bit of an odd-job team on the cheap (in net spend terms) and managed to get the players to peak together at just the right time playing a very organised and aggressive manner of football that suited the players and Anfield. I can’t see them being able to replicate that again and I feel it will be top four battles for them from here.
United have one big advantage and that is the age profile of our squad. All of our best players are mid/early 20s and we have the likes of Diallo, Hannibal, Garner, Elanga etc...all on the verge of making the breakthrough. This gives us the luxury of time when it comes to building a squad. It also gives us the luxury of focus. If we know several positions are nailed down for the next few years we can spend big in problem areas.
The only difference between our starting 11 and that of City or Liverpools is the manager. The latter sign good players and turn them into exceptional ones. Including in Cities case their back up players as well. Liverpool are on power to our squad. We buy good players who stay good players. They play as a collective whereas we rely on individualism. More often than not it gets us results but isn't sustainable to win us important titles.
In short and no disrespect to Ole but while Klopp, Pep and Tuchel are in charge we aren't going to compete for the PL/CL no matter who we sign with Ole in charge.
In short and no disrespect to Ole but while Klopp, Pep and Tuchel are in charge we aren't going to compete for the PL/CL no matter who we sign with Ole in charge.
Our squad is operating somewhere between 70-80 percent of their potential under ole.
If saf is magically in charge we will have somewhere 15pts more in the league.
So yes. Eventually if we keep on spending 100s of millions, 80% of our squad would eventually be good enough to obtain 90pts. But still... it could be much better under a manager who knows what they're doing.
If saf is magically in charge we will have somewhere 15pts more in the league.
So yes. Eventually if we keep on spending 100s of millions, 80% of our squad would eventually be good enough to obtain 90pts. But still... it could be much better under a manager who knows what they're doing.
I can see next season being more difficult than this season. Let's see how well we do but I guess as others will strengthen and be stronger, we will fight for a top 4 place
As long as our players are made to believe it’s their responsibility to keep our manager in his job and not the manager keeping them around, we will continue seeing them playing as individuals and for personal glory.
This is the difference with SAF and our recent managers. They knew he could get rid at anytime without a question asked. Agents, Sponsors, Ed Woodward and media ganged up on LVG to take that away from him, Mourinho was never allowed that much control. Wherefore undermining all ability for managers at United to get players feel a bit of FEAR in losing their jobs when they don’t do as right.
Seen people still blame LVG for ADM leaving, guys that bloke should have never been allowed to stay at this club for more than 3 months. Mourinho for Pogba and Martial underperforming, these guy only perform when they feel the fans are not favouring them or angling for more money. Bruno has one of the worst leadership traits for a sports team captain not having answers to help the team in big moments but we are all made to believe, without him we wouldn’t be anywhere, give his penalties to AWB and play a 2nd Striker(Output to the team will be about the same).
United as a club has the worst championship aspiring team culture in any top league. This culture of players thinking it’s not their fault, they are doing us a favour just by representing us, Individualist attitude scattered across the pitch,etc. Liverpool did not only fail this season because of their defensive crisis the forward line also stopped playing as a unit and seen the upturn in results when they started realising their manager has more clout than them. Chelsea don’t only fire managers but also players they deem don’t work for them as a club no matter potential/ability. Pep will only sign or use players he sees useful to his plan, some of his signing would never get linked to a top club in a million years but they fit right into the collective and end up looking a tonne better than they actually are.
Reputation is drowning United and not allowing us to progress in the right way. It’s all fine declaring oneself a winner without doing it for us but always bear in mind it’s the collective that does it over a season and each player is ONLY a PIECE. I’m hoping this bunch would have felt humiliated enough as a group(not as individuals) to come out next season and work together for a collective success. If they can do that, they as good as any team out there but if they continue this way only false dawns await.
OGS might have peaked or not scratched the surface, we’ll only know in time but he has to showing a streak of ruthlessness with his stars, stop unnecessarily mollycoddling them. It will cost him dear as with LVG and Rooney. He wants to be the One for us then start being the one. Fans won’t like some of his decisions on players but with right achievements he’d be respected and it’ll win them over. Enough of trying to be loved, you’ve had enough of that as a player. Start being respected.
This is the difference with SAF and our recent managers. They knew he could get rid at anytime without a question asked. Agents, Sponsors, Ed Woodward and media ganged up on LVG to take that away from him, Mourinho was never allowed that much control. Wherefore undermining all ability for managers at United to get players feel a bit of FEAR in losing their jobs when they don’t do as right.
Seen people still blame LVG for ADM leaving, guys that bloke should have never been allowed to stay at this club for more than 3 months. Mourinho for Pogba and Martial underperforming, these guy only perform when they feel the fans are not favouring them or angling for more money. Bruno has one of the worst leadership traits for a sports team captain not having answers to help the team in big moments but we are all made to believe, without him we wouldn’t be anywhere, give his penalties to AWB and play a 2nd Striker(Output to the team will be about the same).
United as a club has the worst championship aspiring team culture in any top league. This culture of players thinking it’s not their fault, they are doing us a favour just by representing us, Individualist attitude scattered across the pitch,etc. Liverpool did not only fail this season because of their defensive crisis the forward line also stopped playing as a unit and seen the upturn in results when they started realising their manager has more clout than them. Chelsea don’t only fire managers but also players they deem don’t work for them as a club no matter potential/ability. Pep will only sign or use players he sees useful to his plan, some of his signing would never get linked to a top club in a million years but they fit right into the collective and end up looking a tonne better than they actually are.
Reputation is drowning United and not allowing us to progress in the right way. It’s all fine declaring oneself a winner without doing it for us but always bear in mind it’s the collective that does it over a season and each player is ONLY a PIECE. I’m hoping this bunch would have felt humiliated enough as a group(not as individuals) to come out next season and work together for a collective success. If they can do that, they as good as any team out there but if they continue this way only false dawns await.
OGS might have peaked or not scratched the surface, we’ll only know in time but he has to showing a streak of ruthlessness with his stars, stop unnecessarily mollycoddling them. It will cost him dear as with LVG and Rooney. He wants to be the One for us then start being the one. Fans won’t like some of his decisions on players but with right achievements he’d be respected and it’ll win them over. Enough of trying to be loved, you’ve had enough of that as a player. Start being respected.
If we don't secure our first big transfer in a couple of weeks I think we'll be in for another shit season. We have to learn to be faster and more decisive in the transfer market. If we keep negotiating until the end of August with our targets the players will go elsewhere and we are left with emergency buys like VDB.
City and Pool have the best 11s in the league by quite some distance. Pool don't have that great a squad but City are a different beast there as well. Their bench players are better than starters for other top 4 clubs.
In a normal season, I think the title race will be between these 2 unless we take another step up and both 1. Get better players 2. Existing players get better.
Top 4 should be pretty comfortable unless we shit the bed. Besides Chelsea, no one in the league are better but if you don't improve, you always risk a leicester or a Spurs overperforming and taking that spot off you.
I do think we'll spend this season though and if we get couple of top players especially in attack, I think we can challenge for the title.
In a normal season, I think the title race will be between these 2 unless we take another step up and both 1. Get better players 2. Existing players get better.
Top 4 should be pretty comfortable unless we shit the bed. Besides Chelsea, no one in the league are better but if you don't improve, you always risk a leicester or a Spurs overperforming and taking that spot off you.
I do think we'll spend this season though and if we get couple of top players especially in attack, I think we can challenge for the title.
The definition of an improved season in 2021/2022 really comes down to the owners prepared to back a good sized investment in the roster. Having said that, Teflon Ed has already alluded to the fact that the transfer will be strategic not big, so we won’t see a Chelsea of Citeh summer.
If only there was someone that could actually get the dross off the books and receive at least some taken amounts in return, then we may see some movement, however seeing how Woody and Judge have acted in the past, not a lot of encouragement there.
Hoping to be proved completely wrong, not sure how it will pan out.
If only there was someone that could actually get the dross off the books and receive at least some taken amounts in return, then we may see some movement, however seeing how Woody and Judge have acted in the past, not a lot of encouragement there.
Hoping to be proved completely wrong, not sure how it will pan out.
I am scared for us next season, I really am because:
City will be City, Guardiola will sign a top class striker, possible Kane and they will be there or there about for league and CPL.
Liverpool will continue their end of season form because with Konate and VVD they will have a solid CB pairing which will allow their best midfield of Thiago, Henderson and Fabinho to play together and their front three. They have as good a first 11 as any in Europe.
Chelsea will also be there with Tuchel, they will also sign the much coveted CF and with the likes of Havertz, Ziyech and Werner settling down they will compete for the PL.
I currently see us fourth in the pecking order, as despite having a brilliant first 11 and good squad (which our manager fails to utilize), I believe our manager is not as good as the three other managers. I honestly believe, If you give this squad to better managers, we would be winning trophies and genuinely competing for the title.
Imagine If we sign Sancho, Rice and Kounde for eg. We have a lineup just as good as Chelsea and Liverpool with amazing first 11 and plenty of depth in squad. However, do I think we will actually progress like these teams and reach CPL finals and win league titles, I don't think so and this is what really bothers me and scares me.
Its like competing in a formula 1 race with amazing car which is well equipped for the track, however we have a driver whose novice, whereas the other drivers are hardened seasons campaigners. I hope Ole proves me wrong, because i have lost faith in him.
City will be City, Guardiola will sign a top class striker, possible Kane and they will be there or there about for league and CPL.
Liverpool will continue their end of season form because with Konate and VVD they will have a solid CB pairing which will allow their best midfield of Thiago, Henderson and Fabinho to play together and their front three. They have as good a first 11 as any in Europe.
Chelsea will also be there with Tuchel, they will also sign the much coveted CF and with the likes of Havertz, Ziyech and Werner settling down they will compete for the PL.
I currently see us fourth in the pecking order, as despite having a brilliant first 11 and good squad (which our manager fails to utilize), I believe our manager is not as good as the three other managers. I honestly believe, If you give this squad to better managers, we would be winning trophies and genuinely competing for the title.
Imagine If we sign Sancho, Rice and Kounde for eg. We have a lineup just as good as Chelsea and Liverpool with amazing first 11 and plenty of depth in squad. However, do I think we will actually progress like these teams and reach CPL finals and win league titles, I don't think so and this is what really bothers me and scares me.
Its like competing in a formula 1 race with amazing car which is well equipped for the track, however we have a driver whose novice, whereas the other drivers are hardened seasons campaigners. I hope Ole proves me wrong, because i have lost faith in him.
If we don’t get proper additions to the squad then I can’t see an improvement from this seasons performances. It’s going to be much of the same next season. City & Scousers even though they were unbelievably poor might get stronger but TBH I still think we are better than everyone else. Arsenal, Spurs rest don’t have it in them but possibly Chelsea might have a spring to them. Top 3 finish is a must for us no excuses.
Pretty much spot on. I also think squad + manager combined, on paper we seem fourth best team.
If we dont start well next season Ole will feel the wrath Id say.
Depends on how good Solskjaer is, honestly.
We should (unless something goes terribly wrong) strengthen the first team over the summer. And beyond that you'd expect other players to improve (youngsters like Greenwood, Diallo and whoever but also someone like VDB, who can hardly have less impact). So that will allow us to keep pace with the others' improvement to a certain extent. Especially if our signings help with structural issues in the team, in which case they'll have an impact beyond their own individual quality.
But beyond all that, we have some very low hanging fruit in the shape of the goals we concede from set-pieces, which is among the worst in the league. You'd expect any top coaching team worth their salt to be able to correct that over a full pre-season. That's as easy a thing to improve as anything our rivals can do and would have a massive impact on our team.
If we got that nailed then along with some good signings I don't think we'd be put back in our place. We'll have more competition, sure, but we should still be a better team than we were this year and at least finish relatively comfortably in the CL places, which wouldn't be a huge drop off.
We should (unless something goes terribly wrong) strengthen the first team over the summer. And beyond that you'd expect other players to improve (youngsters like Greenwood, Diallo and whoever but also someone like VDB, who can hardly have less impact). So that will allow us to keep pace with the others' improvement to a certain extent. Especially if our signings help with structural issues in the team, in which case they'll have an impact beyond their own individual quality.
But beyond all that, we have some very low hanging fruit in the shape of the goals we concede from set-pieces, which is among the worst in the league. You'd expect any top coaching team worth their salt to be able to correct that over a full pre-season. That's as easy a thing to improve as anything our rivals can do and would have a massive impact on our team.
If we got that nailed then along with some good signings I don't think we'd be put back in our place. We'll have more competition, sure, but we should still be a better team than we were this year and at least finish relatively comfortably in the CL places, which wouldn't be a huge drop off.
The state of some of our 'fans'
Awful post, awful thread. Truly bizarre mindset.
Back in our place? Our place is at the very top as the most successful club of the PL era.. We will get back there eventually don't you worry.
Yeah the state of them raising ant concerns
Raising concerns
Cirticisim comes from concern.
Unfortunately it seems you can't see the difference between constructive criticism and the tripe we get on here.
"Are we going to be put back in our place?".
I mean this is some high level posting.
This is the sort of thread I’d expect to see if and when Ole wins the league.
“How lucky was Ole to win the league and will we fall back down the pecking order”
Does the CAF hate Ole THAT much that we actively want United to do badly?
“How lucky was Ole to win the league and will we fall back down the pecking order”
Does the CAF hate Ole THAT much that we actively want United to do badly?
"Everyone else was shit", "The weakest year since 1669" etc.
It is funny how Ole outs are going into threads of players who performed well this season and berate them because they know that those players are kind of keeping Ole in the job.
I personally don't think Ole will win the EPL title next season if we use the same squad. But, winning a title next season ahead of City will be a huge achievement for any manager.
Unless of course Pep self-destructs.
Fans have an emotional attachment with the club and it's just a way to voice a concern that we will not be as good again. I just personally don't understand why some people hate it when fans "moan" or question them being fans. After the EL loss it felt like I couldn't even flame and be angry towards the players and managers. Just don't understand it personally.
Yes. 4th place finish, no trophies. Right now that is Utd's place.
What I don’t understand is the utter bile and tripe that gets thrown Ole’s way each time we lose. Also the fact we lose is never because of the players, the fact we lost is always down to Ole. But when we win it’s because of an “individuals talent” and not because of Ole.
This forum LOVES being upset and is never happy.
I dread coming on if Ole ever got sacked (& I hope he doesn’t because he has done so much right for the club since coming in as a manager, the progress is there to see but this forum is too impatient to see it) because this place would be a warzone, you thought the EL loss was bad, sheesh. There for one would be parties in the “street” kinda vibes in here. From so called “fans” as well. Shame.
The best judgment of where the team stands is not results, but the performances. Had inconsistency been the issue wherein we had some amazing performances but some duds, then we could see that its part of a process. But the thing is that even in so many of our wins, we were so poor that you can't really visualize what we're building.
There's not a single big game where we actively go out and try to dominate. That's because we don't have a style of play and there's no confidence that we can impose our authority. Matches like the EL final, games against Arsenal, a weakened Liverpool showcased a lack of guts where we were happy to sit back for a draw, This mentality will never win us the league.
I see so many of you saying that we will never win the league under Ole but yada yada yada. What is the point in continuing with a manager if you have no faith that he would ultimately lead us to a title. In terms of squad harmony, we're in a reasonable place right now. Does it all have to go to shite and become toxic for us to get a manager who can get us competing for major honors?
There's not a single big game where we actively go out and try to dominate. That's because we don't have a style of play and there's no confidence that we can impose our authority. Matches like the EL final, games against Arsenal, a weakened Liverpool showcased a lack of guts where we were happy to sit back for a draw, This mentality will never win us the league.
I see so many of you saying that we will never win the league under Ole but yada yada yada. What is the point in continuing with a manager if you have no faith that he would ultimately lead us to a title. In terms of squad harmony, we're in a reasonable place right now. Does it all have to go to shite and become toxic for us to get a manager who can get us competing for major honors?
Very well put.
Agree with this.
Agree, it seems the only way Ole can get fired is if everything goes south, if things are not completely feck then we'll keep him. It's like he doesn't haves to earn the job, just not lose it.
Like some other poster said, it amazes be how people ask for top players in every position but are happy to settle for a no top coach. Doesn't make sense.
Progression is obviously a big part in determining if a manager is getting the most out of his squad as he possibly can. For many the progression Ole has made with us has been minimal when we look at what Klopp has done in the same timeframe.
Of course Klopp is a lot better manager than Ole so people give Ole more leeway especially as he's a legend for us but that shouldn't be the case. While we're not entitled to win everything just because we're manutd that doesn't mean to say we have to accept mediocrity which is what a large number of the fan base are doing. I'm not having a pop at Ole. He has succeeded in getting rid of the toxicity left behind by Mou and has set us up for the future but also a large part of us supporters think he's taken us as far as he can with the limited experience he has as a top level manager and unlike Klopp his CV doesn't give out hope that he's going to turn us into champions anytime soon. Of course people go over the top with him after a bad result but if people don't think he's the one then they're not going to sugarcoat it.
I know it was a tongue in cheek comment but of course people aren't going to throw a street party when Ole is eventually let go. He's forever going to live in the history of manutd but that doesn't mean it should give him a get out of jail free card. To get a gauge on how Ole is perceived I'll ask a hypothetical question. If it was Poch that came in instead of Ole and he achieved the exact same things as Ole to the letter would you be willing to bet our future giving him another 3 year contract?
The answer to that for me is yes.
Isn't that the point? People like to claim it's romanticism but managers have been sacked at United for losing the dressing room and/or having no chance of making top 4. Any manager who came in after Mourinho and done what Ole has done would have my backing.
You can point to mistakes that were made in individual games but overall the performance of the team is in an upward trajectory. And no it's not celebrating top 4 as a trophy but, let's be honest here, two top 4 finishes in a row is progress for this club at this present moment.
If we regress next season I'm sure he'll be replaced but if we make the right signings we should improve.
We'll finish a maximum of 4th next season. City, Chelsea and Liverpool are far better than us as an overall package, and they have world class managers with big pedigree.
We better hope that Leicester and Spurs (under Poch) don't find form as if they do I can see us struggling for 4th.
The terrible EL final defeat has given Ole very little credit in the bank. If we have a poor start to the season there will be huge pressure to sack Ole.
We better hope that Leicester and Spurs (under Poch) don't find form as if they do I can see us struggling for 4th.
The terrible EL final defeat has given Ole very little credit in the bank. If we have a poor start to the season there will be huge pressure to sack Ole.
From who? Fans want him to stay 20 years irrespective of results and his mates are in the media. I don't think people realise the challenge we'll have at hand getting rid of him.
Do you remember the riot Gary Neville caused when the club initially floated the idea of sacking Mourinho in October? Imagine that but 10x worse.
Fair points. My own thoughts are if someone like Naaglesman or Tuchel had of been available at the end of the season I wouldn't of minded seeing Ole moved to the side because I do think they are more innovative and have a higher ceiling but as no one of that ilk is available I don't mind giving Ole another transfer window but think it would be a mistake to renovate his contract another 3 years until at least January or February of next season.
Speed of progression is key for me. While you say we're on an upward trajectory (you are right) I still think it's minimal. It is a glass half full/empty scenario so opinions will differ but he does deserve another season if only to dispel all doubts of whether he's good enough or not to compete with the likes of Pep, Klopp, Tuchel and even Rodgers. Next season is the biggest (or should be) season in Oles managerial career.
….& why are you so confident we’d have such a catastrophic fall next season? We’ve just finishes 2nd with the best away form in the league, set an unprecedented record too! & yet somehow, because Ole is the manager we’re expecting a fall? Yet it hasn’t happened year on year our league position has improved & the same old tripe is spouted after the end of every season Ole has had.
“So and so will improve and we’ll go back down the table”
Yadda yadda yadda.
It’s getting boring now. Just say you hate Ole.
How many more threads do we need for people to whinge about Ole and the players? The doom and gloom is staggering sometimes. Just relax and see what happens.
Reasonable expectations for Ole in the oncoming season are a title challenge and further progress in both the CL and FA Cup. If he doesn't do those things you'd expect a change in management, knowing the Glazers that'll not happen unless top 4 is unlikely. We need investment, not just on the playing side but on the stadium and surrounding areas. Most can identify the same areas as consistently in need of improvement, the problem of course is that we're unsure of transfer budget. I think that where the manager is backed, we're likely to prove many doubters wrong and hit the expectations quite easily. I'd accept 3rd, QF CL and SF FA Cup, more than this and he's had an amazing season, less and I think he will have underachieved.
I wouldn't call Utd finishing 4th next season as catastrophic. I actually think we're the 4th best team in the league, so it's about right if we finish there.
I really hope fans don't get too carried away with finishing 2nd this season. Liverpool had big injuries and Chelsea had an inept manager for half of the season. Liverpool and Chelsea are clearly better than us - just take a look at the major trophies they have won in the last three seasons!
Man Utd are a club that should be competing to win the Premier League and Champions League. I don't hate Ole, I just don't believe that Ole and his coaching set up are good enough to win either competition. Especially when the likes of Guardiola, Klopp and Tuchel are around.
Nobody can assure if we will be 2nd or 4th or anything, but if we look at odds at the moment we are behind City, Liverpool and Chelsea. That's a hard truth.
We'll see how the summer goes with transfers but I don't think we're fancied to repeat second place and a big part of that is that those 3 teams have superior managers.