Ladies and Gentleman, it’s @Zehner
You've failed to address his point.
Antony | Here we go! €100mill, contract until June 2027, option 'til 2028.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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You've failed to address his point.
Has Dembele signed a new deal with Barca yet ? Surely it we’re concerned about our transfer budget then Dembele on a free makes sense, didn’t Barca offer £100K a week ? Surely if we offered £150K a week more that’d be our right side sorted ?
See, they may play a player with pace there or they don't. It doesn't matter because their playing style doesn't rely on pace but technique, passing and movement - which is why they happily let Sterling and Sané go despite them being the fastest attackers in their squad. When you play in tight spaces, timing beats pace. And in fact, players who time their run well give the impression of being much faster than they actually are. Moreover, I'm not arguing that pace doesn't help. Of course a certain base level helps. But there are diminishin returns to this and when people think Antony is too slow, they've definitely taken this obsession too far.
Also "pointless arguments": Weren't you the "choo choo here comes the Sancho train" guy?
Ladies and Gentleman, it’s @Zehner
Salah and Mané both clocked around 33.5 km/h top speed in last years UCL campaign. Sancho for isntance clocked over 34 km/h. Mahrez with 32 km/h is even slower. Yeah, I know, it's not the be all end all statistic but I wonder, if those players are so fast and if their pace is so important to their team's playing styles, why didn't they hit top speeds that are even remotely close to the elite? I mean, there are many players running faster than 36 km/h out there.
Definitely need him looking at that drop in quality when we switched the team in the second half. Amad and Pellestri both need to go back out on loan.
Come on man, you surely don't believe Sancho is quicker than Mane and Salah? How can we have any rational discussion with observations like that. You don't need a speed gun to see that. These were the kind of stats that showed Mata was one of our quickest players in the squad a few years ago!
Here's one for you. Salah clocked at doing 36.6kmh. What a meaningless debate...
https://www.si.com/fannation/soccer/futbol/features/fastest-premier-league-players
Mainly this. Sancho can play either wing, great. He's 1st choice. Rashford can be quality on the left, can rotate up top, but also need the competition/rotation on the left. Antony balances them out. Competition and depth, always have 1 high level bench option to change things up either left wing or right wing. Elanga the deeper depth is fine. But we need 1 more player, ideally a left footed right winger. Then we can change things up with our attacking combinations and rotate properly. Right now we are reliant on Sancho this season to be fit every game.
Antony isn't happening this year as Ajax won't lose him and Martinez, but he would suit us perfectly.
Salah has definitely been one of the quickest wingers of the last 20 years, some might even go further than that.
If there's one thing any person would associate with Mane and Salah, it's blistering pace. Hence, I don't understand @Zehner trying to downplay their pace and imply it's nothing outstanding as there are "many wingers quicker than them". They are the quickest around. Especially when it comes to actually being effective with that pace and not just a headless road runner.
Elanga demonstrated the importance of technical ability over pace today.
Yeah the club see striker as a priority, however still seems way too quiet on a CDM
Bingo
City might have let Sterling and Sane go but to my eyes Foden is very quick. Mahrez is sneaky quick. I think with those two people don't think of pace as the foremost quality (and it isn't) but they are still quick. They still have very practical speed in terms of outdoing the average backline, whether or not they'd beat Sane in a race on a track.
Ultimately I always think this technical ability v pace thing is a bit strange anyway as it's clear that no top team does without either. Nobody plays three wizards that can't run across the forward line and they don't play sprinters that can't play. They're always striving for a balance so you have multiple avenues to goal.
Which is why it's pretty annoying Liverpool have this habit of picking up wide forwards that are athletic, technical and score bucket loads of goals.
What was the term Queiroz once used when talking about the ability of Anderson and Nani to beat a player? I think it was a Portuguese term linked with Capoeira.
It's something that a lot of good wingers have, and I believe Antony too, which allows them to go past players. It is a term that describes body movements and how you spot your opponents momentum in one direction and go the other way to take them on, and how the best players influence momentum with feints and tricks etc.
This discussion of pace and ability to beat a man reminded me of his comments, but remembering the term he used is bugging me.
EDIT: Ginga, I think it was.
It's something that a lot of good wingers have, and I believe Antony too, which allows them to go past players. It is a term that describes body movements and how you spot your opponents momentum in one direction and go the other way to take them on, and how the best players influence momentum with feints and tricks etc.
This discussion of pace and ability to beat a man reminded me of his comments, but remembering the term he used is bugging me.
EDIT: Ginga, I think it was.
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Capoiera is a form of dance. Nani used to practice it.
We need him since rashford isn't improving.
Ginga. Paul Scholes had that in abundance according to Querioz. Came to him naturally.
Think this transfer didnt really exist in the first place, especially for the quoted sums. Would rather have a pop for Dembele on a free and try and get a good 20 games a season from him with Pellistri and Diallo as backups.
City do actually lack pace up front though. They lack someone who is direct and threaten whatever space there is behind. Sterling is quick but has little top speed. Mahrez even less so. Foden is similar to Sterling. Unfortunately, they now have Haaland…
overall, pace is very important on the flanks. As Giggs once said, playing football in his early twenties was easy as he could just run past the defenders. When he lost that, he was still good but not as effective.
Nani’s best season came when he realized he didn’t need all the fancy tricksto get past players. Instead he used his pace and became much more direct. Same with Ronaldo.
Mane goes past players because of his acceleration and strength. Salah has incredible acceleration and is very agile. He isn’t the fastest over distance though as I’ve seen him lose many longer foot races - Shaw easily pockets him.
You need a combination of technical players and quick players. Preferably the quick players have both.
where is Antony really in terms of speed and technical ability?
Seems the pace of this thread has gone rapidly downhill
Even without blistering pace a winger could easily get away with being very strong or nimble. Man City's Bernardo Silva, Foden and Grealish aren't that quick for example, but are notoriously difficult to get off the ball and they are tactically brilliant. Sancho is one player who just glides past players with ease.
I think strictly speaking in terms of straight line pace which it's advantage is usually overstated anyway, Antony seems to be more than fast enough. With his skill, he could easily make a yard, and most times, the average defender would find it difficult to recover.
He does spend far too much time on the ground for my liking though, which I hope is more antics than an inability to consistently impose himself on defenders. It's going to be a problem for him at Premier League level if the latter is the case. We already have Fernandes who runs fast enough but is very weak physically.
I hope we sign him though because we are desperately light in attack and we are not being linked to many other attackers, but I do have the feeling we could find players in South American leagues who could have a similar impact. He doesn't come across as a rare talent.
This looks dead
I have a feeling it's not done yet. FDJ/another + Martinez, then we'll explore this one. The early reports were that ETH definitely wants him and that we would leave this deal till last, so we'll see. I think we need another good option in attack, going into the season with what we have could unravel everything.
I hope it’s not done it just seems out of reach at the moment. I think he’d be a good signing and is worth the money. Just hard to see Ajax letting more players move on although they have signed Bergwijn so possibly preparing behind the scenes.
You would like to think that ETH had in his mind long ago who he would like to bring with him. If he did, then I could imagine that he spoke to the guys at Ajax about it and possibly even helped identify potential replacements. They seem to have just popped up with the Martinez replacement out of nowhere and suddenly they want this deal to happen and are now open to selling him. I would honestly be shocked if ETH didn't at least tell them that these are the players he will try to sign at United whilst he was still there.
Let's just see. Early reports said he was massive on signing Antony but that it would be done later, possibly after a few sales. We've probably not reached that point yet to know if we will go back in or not. Think the Ronaldo situation needs resolving and I struggle to see the club/ETH wanting his disruptive influence, no matter what they say in public.
Alright, 36.6 is pretty fast, even though it's a different source so a bit difficult to compare with the UEFA stats. Anyway, my point stands that Liverpool played the whole UCL from group stage to final without him hitting anything close to that speed. And the reason is that being extremely fast only matters if you're on the break and offered spae to attack which happens rarer the better the team becomes. When you see the season highlights of Salah, his goals or Liverpool goals in general, they rarely rely on high pace but intensity, movement and transition. The same goes for City. You can't outpace defenders when there's no space or you're doubled.
Well, my point is you need a speed gun because your eyes fool you. Some players look faster than they are, some look slower. It depends on many factors like body language, height, the team's style and so forth. If your team forces the opponent defense to move out a lot because they need to track lots of movements, that enables attackers to punish positional errors and exploit the few milliseconds they accelerate earlier.
Again, that's not arguing pace isn't important or anything. But like everything else, there are diminishing returns at work. Sancho is definitely quick enough to be world class, same goes for Antony. Both are so fast that you definitely need no "compensation" on the other wing for it. They're not Bernardo Silva or Isco at the end of the day.
I think it's primarily about quality, not the "stylistic device" they apply. That Liverpool keeps signing such players has much to do with their system, IMO. I don't know if Diaz and Jota would look like such players if they were signed by Solskjaer.
Either way you look at it, your point doesn’t stand. I told you I can tell just by using my eyes to see that Salah is quicker than Sancho. That shouldn’t even be a debate. You are saying you need a speed gun to prove it as my eyes may be fooling me. I just provided you speed gun stats showing Salah was clocked as the 2nd fastest in the league. Speed gun or eyes, Salah is faster.
This is another point we have to agree to disagree on. Back to the original point, I don’t think pace is the be all and end all. But it is certainly one of the most desirable attributes in modern football for a winger. You argued you don’t need pace in forwards to be successful. Well it certainly makes it significantly more difficult unless the forwards are incredibly talented techniquely.
Was there an argument that Sancho was faster than Salah?
Can't believe that. Salah is legit one of the quickest player in the league.@Zehner for some reason has been arguing for multiple posts now that Salah and Mane aren’t that quick and many are quicker than them. And then stated Sancho is quicker than Salah. I don’t even know why I bothered arguing such an obvious non-debate.Was there an argument that Sancho was faster than Salah?
fecking hell, Mane and Salah are rapid. Both are among the fastest players in the league.
You're telling me that your eyes can spot the difference between 34 km/h and 36 km/h?
See, Salah may be quicker or, as other sources suggest, slower but one way or another, the difference is much smaller than what your eyes suggest and most likely won't matter in almost all situations on the pitch. And no, I don't think it is one of the most desirable attributes. It is important to be fast in general but beyond a certain point, it doesn't make too much of a difference. At least not if you're playing for a top club. For those it is more important to have pace in the defense, not in the attack.
There is no way Antony doesn’t come up in conversation.
I’d imagine it will be brought up but I think Ajax are going to remain firm with their asking price for Antony considering they’ve lost both their manager & a fair few key players already this summer (Mazraoui, Gravenberch, Haller) and now looking like letting Martinez go too.
They don’t really need the money hence why I can see why they have overpriced Antony. Unless Antony hands in a transfer request, refuses to train and make himself unavailable for games etc then the balance changes. But right now I can’t see much movement on that one. Would defo take him though!
I'm certain Ajax will want to keep Antony. But its reported he's really pushing Ajax to listen to offers for him. It will be hard for Ajax to hold on to him especially at the risk of holding on to a player who is now unhappy. It's a difficult situation because naturally ajax don't want to start the season with a decimated squad but at the same time their model is based on attracting young talent to give them a platform to impress and move on to bigger projects.
Look at how hard Ajax have played with LM. I don't see them letting Antony go in this window.
Staying at Barca isn't he?
Still not seen enough evidence of Jadon being able to do that in a Utd shirt yet, however confident it will happen under Erik's coaching
According to De Telegraaf Ajax are looking at young Porto winger Francisco Conceição as a replacement for Antony. Left footed RW, 5m euro release clause, only 19 years old. Alfred Schreuder, new Ajax coach, has spoke with him personally.
That Conceicao’s son? Names pretty unique.
Good sign for us if they are looking at replacements
Yeah it's the head coaches son. Was a nice heart warming moment when he came off the bench to score earlier in the season.
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