Antony dos Santos (Out)

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Varun1 said:
Your analogy makes little sense, you're comparing a $300 steak v an $80m flop!

Am sorry the rest of your text is hard to follow... But, for the sake of this discussion it doesn't matter if EtH called them up or the Glazers are slow to make decisions, what matters is EtH was part of the decision making to spend £80m on a flop who can't even start for us.

Woodward and co. have rightly left the club or been pushed out, but we are seeing the results of not sacking EtH.
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My point was, I asked for steak, steak should cost $50, my wife took me to a place where the steak cost $300, without asking me (for the record I did appreciate it). So when here birthday comes around and I take her out to a place that costs $50 a person and she gets mad that I cheaped out compared to her $300 steak, am I responsible for the fact she chose to spend $300 on a steak when she could have got a perfectly fine one for $50? The $250 discrepancy between the two steaks is a choice she made without my knowledge.

I'm not sure if you know how analogies work, but they are comparisons to relatable situations in an attempt to make the situation seem more understandable to the people having a discussion.

Me = Ten Hag
My wife = Murtough/Arnold
$50 steak = Antony's price in June (50 mil)
$300 steak = Antony's price at the end of Aug (87 mil)

At the end of the day Ten Hag asked for a player, managers ask for as many players as they can get, he has ZERO input into the financials of the club, the club chose to overpay for that player, it's not on Ten Hag.
 
Plant0x84 said:
They bought players to fit the way they want to play. They didn’t set the buying prices, they didn’t agree stupid expensive contracts and they sure as hell didn’t go out to buy duds. The club is just as culpable as the managers for the scouting system either not flagging concerns or not being listened to. That’s on Woodward, Judge, Arnold and Murtough as are the financials.
I’m also confident that some of the players you are referring to won’t have been picked by the managers. DVB is a good example, who was a cheap alternative to Grealish who Ole really wanted. Same with Casemiro and FDJ. It’s too simplistic to condemn the manager when we have a whole system in place to affect the way the club does business, and it’s ludicrous in my humble opinion to suggest a manager has done ‘damage’. The situations unfold at the time, and whether they are positive or negative is a matter for hindsight.
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Ole played a lot on the counter. One of his most expensive transfers, Maguire, did not have the pace to track back and Sancho didn't have the pace to play on the wings. AWB didn't have the required skill to overlap in a counter-attacking team, although maybe Ole thought he could improve him as a player.

Casemiro, Antony, Varane, Onana ... some of the biggest purchases under EtH. You might think it's hindsight but it was obvious to some that Varane & Casemiro were going to be temporary & expensive fixes.

it’s ludicrous in my humble opinion to suggest a manager has done ‘damage’ ... Am not saying Ole & EtH are solely responsible for this, but certainly played a big part. Equally, those involved in that decision making.

Utterly De Ligt'd said:
My point was, I asked for steak, steak should cost $50, my wife took me to a place where the steak cost $300, without asking me (for the record I did appreciate it). So when here birthday comes around and I take her out to a place that costs $50 a person and she gets mad that I cheaped out compared to her $300 steak, am I responsible for the fact she chose to spend $300 on a steak when she could have got a perfectly fine one for $50? The $250 discrepancy between the two steaks is a choice she made without my knowledge.

I'm not sure if you know how analogies work, but they are comparisons to relatable situations in an attempt to make the situation seem more understandable to the people having a discussion.

Me = Ten Hag
My wife = Murtough/Arnold
$50 steak = Antony's price in June (50 mil)
$300 steak = Antony's price at the end of Aug (87 mil)

At the end of the day Ten Hag asked for a player, managers ask for as many players as they can get, he has ZERO input into the financials of the club, the club chose to overpay for that player, it's not on Ten Hag.
Click to expand...

We are talking about an £80m flop, a player who should have cost £40m at most, the steak cost £250 more.
There is no comparison.
 
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Utterly De Ligt'd said:
Did you watch Antony at Ajax before he came to United? I did and he was exciting and skillful and personally I wanted us to sign him long before Ten Hag was ever linked to United. Don't forget Liverpool and Arsenal were also heavily linked with the player. 40% of transfers flop, it happens, sometimes it's more predictable, others it isn't. He clearly hasn't adapted to the league or country, he is devoid of confidence because we don't see any flare, the one time he tried some flare the media, including all our ex players, destroyed him afterwards. And he does seem like a sensitive guy. On top of that he had these allegations thrown at him last year. At this point I don't see him coming good at United, but there is definitely a player there, go watch his Ajax highlights.


I am a human who was alive during that timeframe, I personally liked the player, I am a casual Ajax fan as well, I watched him, liked him and was very aware from the even before Jan his name was being linked with United. It's not just PR, I remember this reality.




On my birthday this year I wanted a steak diner, my wife could have taken me to the local place for a steak that cost $50, but she took
[/QUOTE
Utterly De Ligt'd said:
Did you watch Antony at Ajax before he came to United? I did and he was exciting and skillful and personally I wanted us to sign him long before Ten Hag was ever linked to United. Don't forget Liverpool and Arsenal were also heavily linked with the player. 40% of transfers flop, it happens, sometimes it's more predictable, others it isn't. He clearly hasn't adapted to the league or country, he is devoid of confidence because we don't see any flare, the one time he tried some flare the media, including all our ex players, destroyed him afterwards. And he does seem like a sensitive guy. On top of that he had these allegations thrown at him last year. At this point I don't see him coming good at United, but there is definitely a player there, go watch his Ajax highlights.


I am a human who was alive during that timeframe, I personally liked the player, I am a casual Ajax fan as well, I watched him, liked him and was very aware from the even before Jan his name was being linked with United. It's not just PR, I remember this reality.
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He was nothing to write home about even in Ajax, where he played in an inferior league. That Ajax team had some exceptional players but Antony was not one of them.

Even youtube highlights which can frankly make any player look good are very much average for him.

For context, consider Dan James who was a 15 million signing and deemed nothing special but was orders of magnitude better than Antony in terms of skill set, attitude and general ability as a footballer.

This lad has an excellent case to be the worst signing made by us ever and right now we just can't figure out how to flush. Even loaning him to betis makes no sense.
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CannibalSpectre said:
What are you basing this on? Raphina and Richarlison already proved themselves in the PL when they transferred for big money.

Richarlison was a bright spark at Watford and was talismanic at Everton before his Spurs move. Raphina was equally talismanic at Leeds before Barcelona signed him.

Watford originally paid 12M pounds for Richarlison from Fluminense and Leeds paid 18M for Raphina from Rennes in Ligue 1

The united scouts were realistic with their evaluation of Antony.
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I don’t think proving yourself for relegation fodder in EPL is somehow more impressive than Ajax. They were all Brazilian internationals, Antony was 3 years younger than them as well.

A year later Kudus went for 45m to West Ham. Johan Bakayoko will likely go for 50+ next summer.

That’s just the price for young wingers with potential these days.
 
demetre said:
I don’t think proving yourself for relegation fodder in EPL is somehow more impressive than Ajax. They were all Brazilian internationals, Antony was 3 years younger than them as well.

A year later Kudus went for 45m to West Ham. Johan Bakayoko will likely go for 50+ next summer.

That’s just the price for young wingers with potential these days.
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Except it is. It goes without saying surely. How is proving your ability in the most competitive and arguably best league in the world even while playing for a relegation threatened club less impressive than proving yourself in a much weaker league for a dominant and much richer club (compared to the rest of the Eredevisie)like Ajax?

The very best players at lower table PL clubs are more likely to switch to bigger PL clubs and for more money.

Kudus and Gakpo left the Eredevisie at similar transfer fees but both had better numbers than Antony before their moves. Both would've commanded higher transfer fees had they played for lowly PL clubs with the same output.

The aforementioned Richarlison for instance had similar output to Kudus and Gakpo in his last season at Everton and Spurs paid 60M for his signature. Similarly Barcelona paid a huge fee for Raphina from a struggling Leeds

Just in recent times we've had the likes of Declan Rice, Romeo Lavia, Onana from Everton to Villa, Nunes from Wolves to City, Livramento, Max Kilman and Pedro Neto just to name a few make big money moves to bigger PL clubs from struggling clubs. All but Livramento and Kilman who are defenders cost more than Kudus and Gakpo
 
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Utterly De Ligt'd said:
My point was, I asked for steak, steak should cost $50, my wife took me to a place where the steak cost $300, without asking me (for the record I did appreciate it). So when here birthday comes around and I take her out to a place that costs $50 a person and she gets mad that I cheaped out compared to her $300 steak, am I responsible for the fact she chose to spend $300 on a steak when she could have got a perfectly fine one for $50? The $250 discrepancy between the two steaks is a choice she made without my knowledge.

I'm not sure if you know how analogies work, but they are comparisons to relatable situations in an attempt to make the situation seem more understandable to the people having a discussion.

Me = Ten Hag
My wife = Murtough/Arnold
$50 steak = Antony's price in June (50 mil)
$300 steak = Antony's price at the end of Aug (87 mil)

At the end of the day Ten Hag asked for a player, managers ask for as many players as they can get, he has ZERO input into the financials of the club, the club chose to overpay for that player, it's not on Ten Hag.
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I don''t think anyone needs a a weird analogy where you're imagining Arnold as your wife to be able to understand Antony was a massively over priced madness.
 
Utterly De Ligt'd said:
My point was, I asked for steak, steak should cost $50, my wife took me to a place where the steak cost $300, without asking me (for the record I did appreciate it). So when here birthday comes around and I take her out to a place that costs $50 a person and she gets mad that I cheaped out compared to her $300 steak, am I responsible for the fact she chose to spend $300 on a steak when she could have got a perfectly fine one for $50? The $250 discrepancy between the two steaks is a choice she made without my knowledge.

I'm not sure if you know how analogies work, but they are comparisons to relatable situations in an attempt to make the situation seem more understandable to the people having a discussion.

Me = Ten Hag
My wife = Murtough/Arnold
$50 steak = Antony's price in June (50 mil)
$300 steak = Antony's price at the end of Aug (87 mil)

At the end of the day Ten Hag asked for a player, managers ask for as many players as they can get, he has ZERO input into the financials of the club, the club chose to overpay for that player, it's not on Ten Hag.
Click to expand...
That's the part that gets under my skin. What did Ten Hag see to even consider asking for Antony?

If you have high cholesterol then the price of the steak doesn't matter. Both are equally bad for your health.
 
Varun1 said:
Ole played a lot on the counter. One of his most expensive transfers, Maguire, did not have the pace to track back and Sancho didn't have the pace to play on the wings. AWB didn't have the required skill to overlap in a counter-attacking team, although maybe Ole thought he could improve him as a player.

Casemiro, Antony, Varane, Onana ... some of the biggest purchases under EtH. You might think it's hindsight but it was obvious to some that Varane & Casemiro were going to be temporary & expensive fixes.

it’s ludicrous in my humble opinion to suggest a manager has done ‘damage’ ... Am not saying Ole & EtH are solely responsible for this, but certainly played a big part. Equally, those involved in that decision making.



We are talking about an £80m flop, a player who should have cost £40m at most, the steak cost £250 more.
There is no comparison.
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The steak cost 5 times more than it was worth, the player cost only twice as much as he was worh (accoding to your value)
 
I wonder if he'll feature soon.
Seems like he is the rotation option for the right so we may see him in the Europa League?
 
CannibalSpectre said:
Except it is. It goes without saying surely. How is proving your ability in the most competitive and arguably best league in the world even while playing for a relegation threatened club less impressive than proving yourself in a much weaker league for a dominant and much richer club (compared to the rest of the Eredevisie)like Ajax?

The very best players at lower table PL clubs are more likely to switch to bigger PL clubs and for more money.

Kudus and Gakpo left the Eredevisie at similar transfer fees but both had better numbers than Antony before their moves. Both would've commanded higher transfer fees had they played for lowly PL clubs with the same output.

The aforementioned Richarlison for instance had similar output to Kudus and Gakpo in his last season at Everton and Spurs paid 60M for his signature. Similarly Barcelona paid a huge fee for Raphina from a struggling Leeds

Just in recent times we've had the likes of Declan Rice, Romeo Lavia, Onana from Everton to Villa, Nunes from Wolves to City, Livramento, Max Kilman and Pedro Neto just to name a few make big money moves to bigger PL clubs from struggling clubs. All but Livramento and Kilman who are defenders cost more than Kudus and Gakpo
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Ajax have sold more players for big money than any club in EPL or probably the world. I don't really understand your argument here.

Ok, if Raphinha and Richarlison are not a good barometer then surely Kudus is?

He went for 45 just a year later being the same age. And his output was not better, it's actually worse despite him playing CF his last season.

Kudus at Ajax:
87 games
27 goals
12 assists

Antony at Ajax:
84 games
24 goals
22 assists

So how exactly Antony could have been valued at 20 million at the time?
 
demetre said:
Ajax have sold more players for big money than any club in EPL or probably the world. I don't really understand your argument here.

Ok, if Raphinha and Richarlison are not a good barometer then surely Kudus is?

He went for 45 just a year later being the same age. And his output was not better, it's actually worse despite him playing CF his last season.

Kudus at Ajax:
87 games
27 goals
12 assists

Antony at Ajax:
84 games
24 goals
22 assists

So how exactly Antony could have been valued at 20 million at the time?
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Ajax are a selling club and always have been so there's no surprise in that, though Benfica top them in this regard.

My point is that individual PL to PL transfers are higher than Eredevisie to PL player transfers, especially when it comes to coveted English or homegrown players. You should know that

The income Ajax generated from sales is huge mainly because of their selling policy and the sheer number of players they've sold over the years, not because of higher individual transfer fees across the board. If not for Antony, De Ligt and De Jong for instance who all sold for over 80M Euros, Ajax would be further back on the list of earned transfer income from outgoings.

Martinez is the fourth highest outgoing Ajax transfer at 49M pounds and Kudus is 5th

Also, Antony didn't outperform Kudus at Ajax. He managed those numbers in 5,662 minutes or 63 full matches. Kudos on the other hand played 4,300 minutes or 48 full matches for Ajax. This leaves Antony with less goal contributions per 90 than Kudos at Ajax

The story is similar in England where Antony has 11 goals and 5 assists for united in 5,029 mins compared to Kudos who has 14 goals and 7 assists in 3,795 mins. He's been much better at a higher level and smaller club. It goes to show how poor Ten Hag's talent ID is because he mostly overlooked Kudos for Davy Klaasen and Antony before he left Ajax
 
Varun1 said:
Because they (Ole & EtH) bought the worst players that have been/will be difficult to offload, and both managers were hired at key stages of our decline. Of course, Woodward & co are the biggest culprits.
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Most players bought by all managers post Fergie was difficult to offload. How long did it take to offload Martial and Pogba? The likes of Matic, Rojo, Romero, left only after their contract expired. But it all had nothing to do with managers as Woodward was in control of transfer ins and outs and that clown would rather keep our players longer than it should as they looked better on books.
 
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