RedC
Full Member
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2011
- Messages
- 6,286
Feck off out of the transfer thread with the general chats, I keep thinking we've gotten rid of this idiot.
They bought players to fit the way they want to play. They didn’t set the buying prices, they didn’t agree stupid expensive contracts and they sure as hell didn’t go out to buy duds. The club is just as culpable as the managers for the scouting system either not flagging concerns or not being listened to. That’s on Woodward, Judge, Arnold and Murtough as are the financials.Because they (Ole & EtH) bought the worst players that have been/will be difficult to offload, and both managers were hired at key stages of our decline. Of course, Woodward & co are the biggest culprits.
That’s an easy one to answer, he’s not going anywhere and neither is Casemiro. Now you don’t need to keep looking - although thanks is for being so eloquent and polite.Feck off out of the transfer thread with the general chats, I keep thinking we've gotten rid of this idiot.
Discuss a player in his performance thread, it's not that hard.That’s an easy one to answer, he’s not going anywhere and neither is Casemiro. Now you don’t need to keep looking - although thanks is for being so eloquent and polite.
My point was, I asked for steak, steak should cost $50, my wife took me to a place where the steak cost $300, without asking me (for the record I did appreciate it). So when here birthday comes around and I take her out to a place that costs $50 a person and she gets mad that I cheaped out compared to her $300 steak, am I responsible for the fact she chose to spend $300 on a steak when she could have got a perfectly fine one for $50? The $250 discrepancy between the two steaks is a choice she made without my knowledge.Your analogy makes little sense, you're comparing a $300 steak v an $80m flop!
Am sorry the rest of your text is hard to follow... But, for the sake of this discussion it doesn't matter if EtH called them up or the Glazers are slow to make decisions, what matters is EtH was part of the decision making to spend £80m on a flop who can't even start for us.
Woodward and co. have rightly left the club or been pushed out, but we are seeing the results of not sacking EtH.
Ole played a lot on the counter. One of his most expensive transfers, Maguire, did not have the pace to track back and Sancho didn't have the pace to play on the wings. AWB didn't have the required skill to overlap in a counter-attacking team, although maybe Ole thought he could improve him as a player.They bought players to fit the way they want to play. They didn’t set the buying prices, they didn’t agree stupid expensive contracts and they sure as hell didn’t go out to buy duds. The club is just as culpable as the managers for the scouting system either not flagging concerns or not being listened to. That’s on Woodward, Judge, Arnold and Murtough as are the financials.
I’m also confident that some of the players you are referring to won’t have been picked by the managers. DVB is a good example, who was a cheap alternative to Grealish who Ole really wanted. Same with Casemiro and FDJ. It’s too simplistic to condemn the manager when we have a whole system in place to affect the way the club does business, and it’s ludicrous in my humble opinion to suggest a manager has done ‘damage’. The situations unfold at the time, and whether they are positive or negative is a matter for hindsight.
My point was, I asked for steak, steak should cost $50, my wife took me to a place where the steak cost $300, without asking me (for the record I did appreciate it). So when here birthday comes around and I take her out to a place that costs $50 a person and she gets mad that I cheaped out compared to her $300 steak, am I responsible for the fact she chose to spend $300 on a steak when she could have got a perfectly fine one for $50? The $250 discrepancy between the two steaks is a choice she made without my knowledge.
I'm not sure if you know how analogies work, but they are comparisons to relatable situations in an attempt to make the situation seem more understandable to the people having a discussion.
Me = Ten Hag
My wife = Murtough/Arnold
$50 steak = Antony's price in June (50 mil)
$300 steak = Antony's price at the end of Aug (87 mil)
At the end of the day Ten Hag asked for a player, managers ask for as many players as they can get, he has ZERO input into the financials of the club, the club chose to overpay for that player, it's not on Ten Hag.
Did you watch Antony at Ajax before he came to United? I did and he was exciting and skillful and personally I wanted us to sign him long before Ten Hag was ever linked to United. Don't forget Liverpool and Arsenal were also heavily linked with the player. 40% of transfers flop, it happens, sometimes it's more predictable, others it isn't. He clearly hasn't adapted to the league or country, he is devoid of confidence because we don't see any flare, the one time he tried some flare the media, including all our ex players, destroyed him afterwards. And he does seem like a sensitive guy. On top of that he had these allegations thrown at him last year. At this point I don't see him coming good at United, but there is definitely a player there, go watch his Ajax highlights.
I am a human who was alive during that timeframe, I personally liked the player, I am a casual Ajax fan as well, I watched him, liked him and was very aware from the even before Jan his name was being linked with United. It's not just PR, I remember this reality.
On my birthday this year I wanted a steak diner, my wife could have taken me to the local place for a steak that cost $50, but she took
[/QUOTEDid you watch Antony at Ajax before he came to United? I did and he was exciting and skillful and personally I wanted us to sign him long before Ten Hag was ever linked to United. Don't forget Liverpool and Arsenal were also heavily linked with the player. 40% of transfers flop, it happens, sometimes it's more predictable, others it isn't. He clearly hasn't adapted to the league or country, he is devoid of confidence because we don't see any flare, the one time he tried some flare the media, including all our ex players, destroyed him afterwards. And he does seem like a sensitive guy. On top of that he had these allegations thrown at him last year. At this point I don't see him coming good at United, but there is definitely a player there, go watch his Ajax highlights.
I am a human who was alive during that timeframe, I personally liked the player, I am a casual Ajax fan as well, I watched him, liked him and was very aware from the even before Jan his name was being linked with United. It's not just PR, I remember this reality.
He was nothing to write home about even in Ajax, where he played in an inferior league. That Ajax team had some exceptional players but Antony was not one of them.
Even youtube highlights which can frankly make any player look good are very much average for him.
For context, consider Dan James who was a 15 million signing and deemed nothing special but was orders of magnitude better than Antony in terms of skill set, attitude and general ability as a footballer.
This lad has an excellent case to be the worst signing made by us ever and right now we just can't figure out how to flush. Even loaning him to betis makes no sense.
I don’t think proving yourself for relegation fodder in EPL is somehow more impressive than Ajax. They were all Brazilian internationals, Antony was 3 years younger than them as well.What are you basing this on? Raphina and Richarlison already proved themselves in the PL when they transferred for big money.
Richarlison was a bright spark at Watford and was talismanic at Everton before his Spurs move. Raphina was equally talismanic at Leeds before Barcelona signed him.
Watford originally paid 12M pounds for Richarlison from Fluminense and Leeds paid 18M for Raphina from Rennes in Ligue 1
The united scouts were realistic with their evaluation of Antony.
I don’t think proving yourself for relegation fodder in EPL is somehow more impressive than Ajax. They were all Brazilian internationals, Antony was 3 years younger than them as well.
A year later Kudus went for 45m to West Ham. Johan Bakayoko will likely go for 50+ next summer.
That’s just the price for young wingers with potential these days.
I don''t think anyone needs a a weird analogy where you're imagining Arnold as your wife to be able to understand Antony was a massively over priced madness.My point was, I asked for steak, steak should cost $50, my wife took me to a place where the steak cost $300, without asking me (for the record I did appreciate it). So when here birthday comes around and I take her out to a place that costs $50 a person and she gets mad that I cheaped out compared to her $300 steak, am I responsible for the fact she chose to spend $300 on a steak when she could have got a perfectly fine one for $50? The $250 discrepancy between the two steaks is a choice she made without my knowledge.
I'm not sure if you know how analogies work, but they are comparisons to relatable situations in an attempt to make the situation seem more understandable to the people having a discussion.
Me = Ten Hag
My wife = Murtough/Arnold
$50 steak = Antony's price in June (50 mil)
$300 steak = Antony's price at the end of Aug (87 mil)
At the end of the day Ten Hag asked for a player, managers ask for as many players as they can get, he has ZERO input into the financials of the club, the club chose to overpay for that player, it's not on Ten Hag.
That's the part that gets under my skin. What did Ten Hag see to even consider asking for Antony?My point was, I asked for steak, steak should cost $50, my wife took me to a place where the steak cost $300, without asking me (for the record I did appreciate it). So when here birthday comes around and I take her out to a place that costs $50 a person and she gets mad that I cheaped out compared to her $300 steak, am I responsible for the fact she chose to spend $300 on a steak when she could have got a perfectly fine one for $50? The $250 discrepancy between the two steaks is a choice she made without my knowledge.
I'm not sure if you know how analogies work, but they are comparisons to relatable situations in an attempt to make the situation seem more understandable to the people having a discussion.
Me = Ten Hag
My wife = Murtough/Arnold
$50 steak = Antony's price in June (50 mil)
$300 steak = Antony's price at the end of Aug (87 mil)
At the end of the day Ten Hag asked for a player, managers ask for as many players as they can get, he has ZERO input into the financials of the club, the club chose to overpay for that player, it's not on Ten Hag.
The steak cost 5 times more than it was worth, the player cost only twice as much as he was worh (accoding to your value)Ole played a lot on the counter. One of his most expensive transfers, Maguire, did not have the pace to track back and Sancho didn't have the pace to play on the wings. AWB didn't have the required skill to overlap in a counter-attacking team, although maybe Ole thought he could improve him as a player.
Casemiro, Antony, Varane, Onana ... some of the biggest purchases under EtH. You might think it's hindsight but it was obvious to some that Varane & Casemiro were going to be temporary & expensive fixes.
it’s ludicrous in my humble opinion to suggest a manager has done ‘damage’ ... Am not saying Ole & EtH are solely responsible for this, but certainly played a big part. Equally, those involved in that decision making.
We are talking about an £80m flop, a player who should have cost £40m at most, the steak cost £250 more.
There is no comparison.
You've lost me.The steak cost 5 times more than it was worth, the player cost only twice as much as he was worh (accoding to your value)
Has he got a new girlfriend?Antony to be our highest scorer this season
Antony to be our highest scorer this season
Ajax have sold more players for big money than any club in EPL or probably the world. I don't really understand your argument here.Except it is. It goes without saying surely. How is proving your ability in the most competitive and arguably best league in the world even while playing for a relegation threatened club less impressive than proving yourself in a much weaker league for a dominant and much richer club (compared to the rest of the Eredevisie)like Ajax?
The very best players at lower table PL clubs are more likely to switch to bigger PL clubs and for more money.
Kudus and Gakpo left the Eredevisie at similar transfer fees but both had better numbers than Antony before their moves. Both would've commanded higher transfer fees had they played for lowly PL clubs with the same output.
The aforementioned Richarlison for instance had similar output to Kudus and Gakpo in his last season at Everton and Spurs paid 60M for his signature. Similarly Barcelona paid a huge fee for Raphina from a struggling Leeds
Just in recent times we've had the likes of Declan Rice, Romeo Lavia, Onana from Everton to Villa, Nunes from Wolves to City, Livramento, Max Kilman and Pedro Neto just to name a few make big money moves to bigger PL clubs from struggling clubs. All but Livramento and Kilman who are defenders cost more than Kudus and Gakpo
Please.Feck off out of the transfer thread with the general chats, I keep thinking we've gotten rid of this idiot.
Ajax have sold more players for big money than any club in EPL or probably the world. I don't really understand your argument here.
Ok, if Raphinha and Richarlison are not a good barometer then surely Kudus is?
He went for 45 just a year later being the same age. And his output was not better, it's actually worse despite him playing CF his last season.
Kudus at Ajax:
87 games
27 goals
12 assists
Antony at Ajax:
84 games
24 goals
22 assists
So how exactly Antony could have been valued at 20 million at the time?