Antonio Valencia

Chris H said:
ARRRGH! No, no, no.

For the fiftieth time, he did not lead the club in assists last season. He had 6 in the league, 11 in all competitions, whereas Rooney had 13 in the league alone. Three of Nani's league assists were from corners (against Everton, Sunderland and Liverpool), and one came from drawing a penalty (Sunderland). Stats from Soccernet and the league's official website.
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Are you sure you used enough R's to stress your point there?

I'm going by Mozza's stats which he updated after each match last season. I can't recall disagreeing with any of his updates, so don't know where the 3 phantom assists compared to ESPN's stats comes from.
 
Anduin said:
he has age, all the ability of the world and the trust of the greatest manager ever on his side
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Given the fact that Fergie has him nailed to the bench or sitting in the stand against against decent teams, I'm not so sure he does have that. Eight league matches this season, five as a sub.
Ekeke said:
So that doesnt show you what he's capable of when full of confidence? Does the air influence the ball differently during a competative match?
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No, but the quality of the defense certainly does. This season Nani has only played well, and with confidence, against weak opposition. He has scored against Derby, Southampton, West Brom, Middlesbrough, and Blackburn. So that's two against Championship sides, two against soon-to-be Championship sides, and one against a half-strength Blackburn team that let in 5 goals on the night in a Carling Cup match. He did score a good goal for Portugal though over the summer...against the Faroe Islands.

Call me crazy, but I see a pattern here.
 
Chris H said:
I may have overdone the R's, apologies for my incivility. I can understand your mistrust of ESPN, but surely the Premier League is able to keep decent track of who does what over a season, and they credited him with 6. Where can I find Mozza's stuff? I'll try to find the disparity, as I have very little to do today.
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https://www.redcafe.net/f6/manchester-united-goal-scorers-07-08-a-171668/

You seem hellbent on proving that Nani isn't as good or as big a talent as some thinks, which honestly baffles me.
I know of people obsessed with changing people's opinion on stars of other clubs (Cal/Henry, Lampard, Gerrard etc.) but it's rare that you find someone who tries his hardest to knock our own players down a notch in other people's esteem. It's as if it annoys you that some of us still have hope of Nani coming good.

Most people go out of their way to defend one of our players if wrongly criticized, but it seems like it's the other way around with you. I'm not saying we should all just blindly support all United players, but I just don't get it. Surely it's a good thing that some still believe in Nani's ability, even if you don't?

I know I'm probably overreacting and putting you in a box, and if that's the case then I apologize, but it was the impression I got from reading your posts.

Edit: What just happened to your post?
 
Top said:
I know I'm probably overreacting
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Even more than I was with the R's, I'd say.

I'm not determined to prove he's crap, but if we're going to list the things in his favor, we may as well get them right. Ditto for comparing like for like statistics between players, especially when the question being discussed involves how many goals each one creates from the wing, and interpretation of the raw numbers is instructive. I don't think I have ever unfairly maligned the lad's ability, but let's face it Top - he has an evil head, and there's no point denying it. I will not rest until an angry torch-wielding mob gathers outside his villa, pitchforks in hand, determined to mete out rough justice to this freakishly-headed man/monster. If this upsets other supporters on this board, so be it. I am confident that I shall be proven right in time.
 
Top said:
Edit: What just happened to your post?
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Realized I don't actually have time to go through those stats to find the disparity, figured I'd withdraw the offer to check through them.
 
Fair enough, Chris, I apologize for overreacting.
I have built a bit of a sweet spot for Nani and his evil head as a result of the often extreme criticism he gets. Some people are even going as far as saying they hate the guy, imagining stuff about him as a person on no ground what so ever, despite the fact that Nani's always very humble and down to earth when doing interviews.
Most of us have this 'against the masses' attitude and mine apparently relates to Nani, while others defend O'Shea at most costs.
 
Chris H said:
Given the fact that Fergie has him nailed to the bench or sitting in the stand against against decent teams, I'm not so sure he does have that. Eight league matches this season, five as a sub. No, but the quality of the defense certainly does. This season Nani has only played well, and with confidence, against weak opposition. He has scored against Derby, Southampton, West Brom, Middlesbrough, and Blackburn. So that's two against Championship sides, two against soon-to-be Championship sides, and one against a half-strength Blackburn team that let in 5 goals on the night in a Carling Cup match. He did score a good goal for Portugal though over the summer...against the Faroe Islands.

Call me crazy, but I see a pattern here.
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So much bull.... :boring:
 
Godfather said:
So much bull.... :boring:
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It's not though, it's very true.

There is a pattern.

Although in all honesty I find it pretty likely that every winger at his age has the same sort of pattern, although to a less degree because so few wingers score as many as him, even against the weaker teams.

I've still got massive hope for the lad, but Park's still a considerably better option than him this season.
 
Top said:
Fair enough, Chris, I apologize for overreacting.
I have built a bit of a sweet spot for Nani and his evil head as a result of the often extreme criticism he gets. Some people are even going as far as saying they hate the guy, imagining stuff about him as a person on no ground what so ever, despite the fact that Nani's always very humble and down to earth when doing interviews.
Most of us have this 'against the masses' attitude and mine apparently relates to Nani, while others defend O'Shea at most costs.
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Agreed. I can also sense a level of deep rooted dissatisfaction with some of the fans on here. Its truly pathetic and needs to stop. It seems that patience and belief are two attributes that are in short supply. Where would Darren Fletcher be now if some people had their way after his first year and a half in the first team squad? I sometimes get the feeling our most criticised players cant win no matter what they do and thats a real shame.
 
I still believe that if Nani was playing for the likes of Man City, Wigan or Aston Villa week in week out, he'd be performing as well as the likes of SWP, Valencia and Young. He's got all the natural talent it's just as a young player he is struggling to assert himself in a team where frankly he isn't completely relied upon. Needs a bit of self-confidence as well.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
I still believe that if Nani was playing for the likes of Man City, Wigan or Aston Villa week in week out, he'd be performing as well as the likes of SWP, Valencia and Young. He's got all the natural talent it's just as a young player he is struggling to assert himself in a team where frankly he isn't completely relied upon. Needs a bit of self-confidence as well.
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Loan him out than?
 
davisjw said:
Loan him out than?
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Well we need him here. I should also add the pressure at playing for a top four club like United is way above that of the other clubs mentioned. An example is SWP himself, couldn't hack it at Chelsea, but will obviously look more than decent at City.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
I still believe that if Nani was playing for the likes of Man City, Wigan or Aston Villa week in week out, he'd be performing as well as the likes of SWP, Valencia and Young. He's got all the natural talent it's just as a young player he is struggling to assert himself in a team where frankly he isn't completely relied upon. Needs a bit of self-confidence as well.
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People keep saying that. But if he played for another club as poorly as he did in the majority of United games this season he'd get stuck on the bench regardless.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
People keep saying that. But if he played for another club as he did in the majority of United games this season he'd get stuck on the bench regardless.
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I wouldn't agre with that.

You talk about how Nani's brain not being natured, but Valencia was just the same two years ago if not last season.

He would be guaranteed to play games at Wigan and as such his footballing brain would improve just like Valencia's did.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
People keep saying that. But if he played for another club as he did in the majority of United games this season he'd get stuck on the bench regardless.
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Possibly but then you are going to assume that he would play for another club as he does for United in broken up stretches. For another club he would playing every game and I doubt he would be dropped if he had two bad games in a row. That wouldn't be true at United. Only the likes of Ronaldo, Rio, VDS, Vidic, Evra and Berbatov arguably are exempt from that.
 
marcus agrippa said:
Chris, Nani has featured prominently in Europe for us. So what does that mean?
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Good point, and he also played against Zenit. Perhaps Sir Alex feels his game is better suited to European play than the Premiership. I am probably too hard on Nani, and though I do not want to seem like one of those idiots who enjoys bashing our players, I do have concerns about his development. Some of you may be right that he'd play regularly, and well, at another club. Perhaps that's what he needs in order to develop focus and consistency, but I don't see a loan move in his immediate future.
 
Chris H said:
Good point, and he also played against Zenit. Perhaps Sir Alex feels his game is better suited to European play than the Premiership. I am probably too hard on Nani, and though I do not want to seem like one of those idiots who enjoys bashing our players, I do have concerns about his development. Some of you may be right that he'd play regularly, and well, at another club. Perhaps that's what he needs in order to develop focus and consistency, but I don't see a loan move in his immediate future.
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Good post. Pretty much sums up where I'm at too.

The not playing thing is a problem and it bugs me that he hasn't even had a chance to get some minutes with the reserves. He hasn't been good enough to start many first-team games but a bit more competitive football, even at reserve level, would do him a world of good.
 
This thread seems to be more about Nani than Valencia...anyway if we do sign Valencia it is the home of the paella, so we should see some traditional Valencian food in the stands, with some sangria...
 
I seem to remember Ronaldo's decision-making was very poor but we persevered with him. Ok, everyone will say he's a special talent, but we'll never know with Nani until we give him games. Having said all that, I do prefer Park in the side but Nani is one of those players who will either do: not a lot, or: not a lot but score a goal when you most need it.
 
Denis' cuff said:
I seem to remember Ronaldo's decision-making was very poor but we persevered with him. Ok, everyone will say he's a special talent, but we'll never know with Nani until we give him games. Having said all that, I do prefer Park in the side but Nani is one of those players who will either do: not a lot, or: not a lot but score a goal when you most need it.
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As evidenced by his first United goal one of the most important first goals i have seen
 
Britalian said:
This thread seems to be more about Nani than Valencia...
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Threads about any winger - Valencia, Park, Tosic, any rumored transfer "target" - end up being about Nani. We all assumed he'd be locking down one of our wing positions for years to come, and since it hasn't happened yet, the relative merits of these other wingers becomes a subject for discussion. If Nani plays the way we all hope he can, there will be no need for comparisons.

That would be fine with me. If this evil-headed young man can fulfill his potential, we can find other things to argue about.
 
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