[Brwned]

I am asking him to do that because he is not capable of effectively crossing the ball or anything else that's remotely creative around the box, so it's better if he passes it to someone like Mata, Mkhitaryan, or Pogba who could something better with it than to lose it by crossing into player's shins. I would ask him to try more backpasses like Martial did for Pogba yesterday, or to try early cross, go for a killer pass, shot or something like that but he is obviously not capable of that. My point is that he needs to stop crossing the ball because he is not good at it and he is ruining our attacks by constantly trying to cross the ball and failing.

Regarding stats, as I said couple of times, majority of these fullbacks are nowhere near attacking enough as Valencia is, and don't see the ball as much as him, so I don't think some stats are relevant. Even those that can be relevant in reality, don't look like it. I mean, him and Marcelo have almost identical number of dribbles per game? Yeah, right.
You don't even need to watch other fullbacks to notice that he is nothing special, just watch yesterday's game and ask yourself what exactly did he bring to our play that we already didn't have? We are praising a player who keeps possession and brings the ball high up the pitch against teams that we already dominate the posession and spend most of our game playing around their box even without him. Do you think we would be anything worse with Ashley Young yesterday playing as RB?

When we are struggling to dominate posession and bring the ball in the final third, like we did last year in big games, then I could understand the praise for Valencia, but he brings those things mostly in games that we are already dominating(against weaker team) and in big games he is nowhere near that level. I reckon he hoofs the ball more than anyone else from our team in big games. I just don't think things that he brings to this team are special at all.

No-one is saying what he brings is special. What he brings is dull, mechanical and predictable. It just so happens that those things are also quite useful. Some people care more about the former, some about the latter. That's all there is to it here.

Let's focus on the crossing bit for a second. Who is good at crossing? I'm watching Chelsea at the moment and it's abundantly clear that Alonso is a much better crosser, in terms of both striking technique and variety, and yet the vast majority of his crosses amount to nothing. Like every other player.

According to WhoScored, last season Valencia had 1.5 successful cross per game. No other fullback had more in the league. Milner is joint-top with him in terms of accurate crosses, and I think we can all say that he's a "better" crosser than Valencia in terms of technique. Both got 3 assists. Blind is a pretty good crosser in my perspective, lands 1 cross per game, and had 2 assists all last season. Baines was the same and got 3 assists.

Thoughts?

 

[Rossa]

Noticed it since pre season, and he doesn't look physically the same to me.

So, pre season where most players are running at half, and then three matches in? It's the same old age, so it cannot just be form. It's completely ridiculous. Looks just as fast to me, but he has been more reserved in his forward runs. We'll see by Christmas.

 

[Rozay]

So, pre season where most players are running at half, and then three matches in? It's the same old age, so it cannot just be form. It's completely ridiculous. Looks just as fast to me, but he has been more reserved in his forward runs. We'll see by Christmas.

It's not 'completely ridiculous'. We both have eyes, and I'm old enough to make an observation that I feel a player is physically declining, not even mentioning the fact that logic is on my side.

Anyway, thanks for your concern, I'll stick with my observation, up until any point where it changes.

 

[Rai7]

Everyone criticizing Valencia today are failing to mention the clear as day goal opportunity through a cross he gave to Lukaku that was missed completely because of Lukaku failing to control it after chesting it down. His other 4-5 in the game were either wasteful or average though, but so was everyone else's crosses. The truth is hardly anyone in the team and cross the ball worth a damn.

This happened many times last season because I ran was wasteful, but most people rather just think of the negatives because of their negative agenda towards Valencia. Having said that, Valencia didn't have his best game yesterday, but over the course of a season I'm certain he'll keep proving his worth and exceeding expectations.

 

[Rossa]

It's not 'completely ridiculous'. We both have eyes, and I'm old enough to make an observation that I feel a player is physically declining, not even mentioning the fact that logic is on my side.

Anyway, thanks for your concern, I'll stick with my observation, up until any point where it changes.

He will obviously decline, but it's not like he is looking to take Rooney's route. It is completely ridiculous when there are no hard evidence; it's not like he is being outpaced like Gary Neville before he retired, or suffers from the first touch of Rooney. He is looking like he plays it a little more safe now.

The point is that people are way too quick to proclaim poor (or average) form with players over 30 as a physical decline. It's been said with Ronaldo, Robben and even Valencia. There may be small niggles that prevent them from having full sprints, just like Bellerin today looked devoid of pace - is it because of age or form? We'll wait and see.

 

[acnumber9]

No-one is saying what he brings is special. What he brings is dull, mechanical and predictable. It just so happens that those things are also quite useful. Some people care more about the former, some about the latter. That's all there is to it here.

Let's focus on the crossing bit for a 2nd. Who is good at crossing? I'm watching Chelsea at the moment and it's abundantly clear that Alonso is a much better crosser, in terms of both striking technique and variety, and yet the vast majority of his crosses amount to nothing. Like every other player.

According to WhoScored, last season Valencia had 1.5 successful cross per game. No other fullback had more in the league. Milner is joint-top with him in terms of accurate crosses, and I think we can all say that he's a "better" crosser than Valencia in terms of technique. Both got 3 assists. Blind is a pretty good crosser in my perspective, lands 1 cross per game, and had 2 assists all last season. Baines was the same and got 3 assists.

Thoughts?

That should be obvious to anyone who watches a bit of football. I don't know who all these all action, creative right backs are. They're not all Dani Alves. People are overreacting now because they wanted Aurier having probably watched him twice or on YouTube.

 

[Amar__]

Let's focus on the crossing bit for a second. Who is good at crossing? I'm watching Chelsea at the moment and it's abundantly clear that Alonso is a much better crosser, in terms of both striking technique and variety, and yet the vast majority of his crosses amount to nothing. Like every other player.

According to WhoScored, last season Valencia had 1.5 successful cross per game. No other fullback had more in the league. Milner is joint-top with him in terms of accurate crosses, and I think we can all say that he's a "better" crosser than Valencia in terms of technique. Both got 3 assists. Blind is a pretty good crosser in my perspective, lands 1 cross per game, and had 2 assists all last season. Baines was the same and got 3 assists.

Thoughts?

I am not really sure who is good these days at crossing the ball, because I am not watching too much football lately. I can say majority of players in our team are better than him though.
Btw, just today we saw lot of goals after good crosses, do you think any of them would be scored if Valencia was the player who was crossing the ball?

He was always going to be on top by most succesful number of crosses per game, considering he probably tries the most. What's the stat for total crosses per game? Including blocked one would be interesting too(as I mentioned in the other thread), but I doubt there are stats that include them.

 

[Brwned]

I am not really sure who is good these days at crossing the ball, because I am not watching too much football lately. I can say majority of players in our team are better than him though.
Btw, just today we saw lot of goals after good crosses, do you think any of them would be scored if Valencia was the player who was crossing the ball?

He was always going to be on top by most succesful number of crosses per game, considering he probably tries the most. What's the stat for total crosses per game? Including blocked one would be interesting too(as I mentioned in the other thread), but I doubt there are stats that include them.

Yes, that would be an "unsuccessful" cross. Open to interpretation though so I'm sure a few are missed. Milner is about 60% more likely to put in an unsuccessful cross than Valencia, according to last season's stats. Though I'm sure you find them hard to believe, for obvious reasons.

 

[Amar__]

Yes, that would be an "unsuccessful" cross. Open to interpretation though so I'm sure a few are missed. Milner is about 60% more likely to put in an unsuccessful cross than Valencia, according to last season's stats. Though I'm sure you find them hard to believe, for obvious reasons.

Fair enough, stats prove me wrong. I don't find them that relevant though, as I cannot agree that Valencia is one of the best crossers in the world, let alone more ridiculous one like Dani Alves being the best crosser in the world. There's also a question I asked you in the previous post regarding today's games, there are some obvious things even the most detailed stats cannot show.

There's also this:

Crossing and stats probably shouldn't be used together. It depends on so many variables. Striker movement, quality of defence, striker height, aggression, defensive aggression and so on.

Better to use your eyes on this one. Valencia last year if I recall had some of the highest stats for cross completion but yet they were diagonal long balls from about 10-20 yards further back from where he should be crossing and more often than not they were absolute garbage floated things only hitting one of our players due to the height, strength and ability of Zlatan and Fellaini.

Compare that to Blind,CBJ or even Shaw delivery and Darmian,Young and even Bailly and Herrera who did RB andLB stints and all of them put in better more threatening crosses than Valencia.

The quality and threat of a cross is something that can't really be measured and that is what really separates a good crosser from a bad one.

 

[Obiorahking_]

His final ball wasn't great for the last two games so people are ready to discredit the last two seasons he has had where his final ball has been really good. Fickle ass cafe.

 

[Brwned]

Fair enough, stats prove me wrong. I don't find them that relevant though, as I cannot agree that Valencia is one of the best crossers in the world, let alone more ridiculous one like Dani Alves being the best crosser in the world. There's also a question I asked you in the previous post regarding today's games, there are some obvious things even the most detailed stats cannot show.

There's also this:

That's not what the stats tell you and I don't know why you're willfully misinterpreting them in that way. It's also not my opinion. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

You guys need to stop talking about and looking at stats. Use your bloody eyes and look. His end product is pathetic. At the best of times, it's hit and hope. There is no whip or purpose to his crosses, if they even come off in the first place. His one footedness forces us to play narrow, and makes us so bloody predictable on the right wing.

 

[Escobar]

Does anyone actually know if he really has some physical issues?

He had an ok'ish game imo. His end product needs to improve a lot

 

[Amar__]

That's not what the stats tell you and I don't know why you're willfully misinterpreting them in that way. It's also not my opinion. Let's agree to disagree.

I know it's not your opinion, you just posted what the stats say. Also, I am not sure how I misinterpreted the stats. It clearly says Alves has the best accuracy in Europe, and Valencia has the (second) best accuracy in the PL(I am talking about stats from the other thread though, and he is second best, my bad).

 

[RedStarUnited]

His final ball wasn't great for the last two games so people are ready to discredit the last two seasons he has had where his final ball has been really good. Fickle ass cafe.

Lets not go overboard, apart from that season Rooney was scoring headers for fun, Valencias crossing has never been great.

 

[El Zoido]

His crossing is woeful and has been for years. No idea why he's so highly regarded, I struggle to see what he offers. His decision making is glacial, he can't cross, he's got no left foot, he struggles to beat a man (and even if he does, he does nothing with it), his passing range is also poor. He's physically strong at least, his defensive positioning is good enough but he offers nothing going forward. Don't you just love when we break away and he gets the ball on the right side of the box, then proceeds to stand over it for 10 seconds while the opposition defense all get back in to position? Yeah, me neither.

Imagine having an overlapping wing back that could drop balls on Lukaku's head and would genuinely stretch opposition defenses and cause them problems.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Lets not go overboard, apart from that season Rooney was scoring headers for fun, Valencias crossing has never been great.

Not saying great, but he put in multiple dangerous crosses a game prior to the past two games for the past two seasons.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Last year he completed ten more successful crosses than any other player in the league nevermind a right back yet we are going to say his end product is woeful. Yes it may not measure the quality of the crosses but the point of a cross in and of it self is to land another player. Valencia has done just that.

 

[Obiorahking_]

You guys need to stop talking about and looking at stats. Use your bloody eyes and look. His end product is pathetic. At the best of times, it's hit and hope. There is no whip or purpose to his crosses, if they even come off in the first place. His one footedness forces us to play narrow, and makes us so bloody predictable on the right wing.

This is ridiculous. You can't evaluate soly off of the eye test because it is unreliable. There are 22 players on a football pitch and within 1 player there are many things someone has to lookout for in order to evaluate that player. Consequentially what you might notice in one players's gameplay you might not notice in another. There is a reason every premier league club uses a lot of analytics when evaluating performances of players.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

This is ridiculous. You can't evaluate soly off of the eye test because it is unreliable. There are 22 players on a football pitch and within 1 player there are many things someone has to lookout for in order to evaluate that player. Consequentially what you might notice in one players's gameplay you might not notice in another. There is a reason every premier league club uses a lot of analytics when evaluating performances of players.

Yes but there are glaringly obvious things that even we can pick up on. Can you really honestly contest the fact that his crosses are for the vast majority of the time terrible? Or the fact that he is so bloody one footed that it forces his passing back or forces us to play narrow whenever we switch play to the right wing? Those arent things that need high level analysis. They are obvious.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Yes but there are glaringly obvious things that even we can pick up on. Can you really honestly contest the fact that his crosses are for the vast majority of the time terrible? Or the fact that he is so bloody one footed that it forces his passing back or forces us to play narrow whenever we switch play to the right wing? Those arent things that need high level analysis. They are obvious.

To you they are but to me that statement is incredibly false even just using the eye test. The stats refute your analysis of his crosses because last season he completed ten more successful crosses than any other player in the league including Kevin De Bruyne. So please explain to me how its obvious that valencias crosses are terrible when he tops the league in crossing accuracy?
Valencia dosen't force us to play narrow. His reluctance to use his left foot has been a recurring problem. I'll admit that, but that only aggravates the fact that we don't player with an actual right winger does, but as Mata/Miki drift inside, so does our gameplay seeing as they are our most creative players with Pogba who also plays through the middle.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

To you they are but to me that statement is incredibly false even just using the eye test. The stats refute your analysis of his crosses because last season he completed ten more successful crosses than any other player in the league including Kevin De Bruyne. So please explain to me how its obvious that valencias crosses are terrible when he tops the league in crossing accuracy?
Valencia dosen't force us to play narrow. His reluctance to use his left foot has been a recurring problem. I'll admit that, but that only aggravates the fact that we don't player with an actual right winger does, but as Mata/Miki drift inside, so does our gameplay seeing as they are our most creative players with Pogba who also plays through the middle.

Firstly, totally agree that not having a proper winger and using Mata does not help.

Second, that stat of successful crosses is so misleading IMO. What is a successful cross? One that comes into the area and clears the defender. It in no way shows the quality of the cross. Valencia's crosses never find their target, have no pace and have no purpose. It's hit and hope for him. So while the stats might show that he has put more balls into the boz than anyone else, it doesn't tell the story of quality. Arguing that he did that more than KDB is a little irrelevant. City play the ball on the ground and pass it more rather than bang it into the middle. Also, KDB cracks defences with his passing and movement, not through his crosses.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Feels like people here are looking for a decline rather than Valencia actually declining as of yet. His crossing has always been like this, physically he looks as good as ever.

 

[Dobbs]

Stats and charts being used to discuss if a player can cross a ball. Anybody else think its a tad unnecessary?

 

[Obiorahking_]

Firstly, totally agree that not having a proper winger and using Mata does not help.

Second, that stat of successful crosses is so misleading IMO. What is a successful cross? One that comes into the area and clears the defender. It in no way shows the quality of the cross. Valencia's crosses never find their target, have no pace and have no purpose. It's hit and hope for him. So while the stats might show that he has put more balls into the boz than anyone else, it doesn't tell the story of quality. Arguing that he did that more than KDB is a little irrelevant. City play the ball on the ground and pass it more rather than bang it into the middle. Also, KDB cracks defences with his passing and movement, not through his crosses.

This is a problem. You just said valencias crosses never find their target but a successful cross means that the cross connected with one of our players in the box so once again your eye test is wrong. And using KDB as a reference means something because a creative midfielder is supposed to be able to pick out a player better than a freaking right back.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Stats and charts being used to discuss if a player can cross a ball. Anybody else think its a tad unnecessary?

Yeah who needs stats these days. All clubs should just fire their entire analytics staff.

 

[Dobbs]

Yeah who needs stats these days. All clubs should just fire their entire analytics staff.

Not what I said. Silly reply.

 

[Escobar]

Feels like people here are looking for a decline rather than Valencia actually declining as of yet. His crossing has always been like this, physically he looks as good as ever.

To ous outsiders, yes. There are reports that he has some issues which means he could miss games at some point

 

[Obiorahking_]

Not what I said. Silly reply.

You saying that we don't need metrics to analyze ones ability to cross is just as silly when metrics have the upper hand over the eye test.

 

[Dobbs]

You saying that we don't need metrics to analyze ones ability to cross is just as silly when metrics have the upper hand over the eye test.

That's right I did say that. I didn't say we should dispense with all stats and sack all analytics staff. Which is how you misinterpreted my point.

It's tragic if a football fan can't fully trust his own eyes to judge if a player can cross or not.

 

[Obiorahking_]

That's right I did say that. I didn't say we should dispense with all stats and sack all analytics staff. Which is how you misinterpreted my point.

It's tragic if a football fan can't fully trust his own eyes to judge if a player can cross or not.

Yeah so tragic yet there is so much disagreement. everyone who dosen't agree with you on ones crossing ability must be so tragic? right?

 

[Dobbs]

Yeah so tragic yet there is so much disagreement. everyone who dosen't agree with you on ones crossing ability must be so tragic? right?

I didn't say those who disagree on Valencia's crossing ability are tragic. I said those who need a bar chart to form an opinion are.

Just read posts properly and we avoid conversations like this.

 

[Obiorahking_]

I didn't say those who disagree on Valencia's crossing ability are tragic. I said those who need a bar chart to form an opinion are.

Just read posts properly and we avoid conversations like this.

So you are saying that you if there is a stat that shows how accurate someone is at crossing and someone cites it as evidence that Valencia isn't as bad a crosser as people make him out to be, that person is tragic? Do you know how many clubs use stats like that to evaluate players? Are those clubs so tragic? Do you realize how unbelievably stupid this sounds?

 

[LeftyBlaster]

So you are saying that you if there is a stat that shows how accurate someone is at crossing and someone cites it as evidence that Valencia isn't as bad a crosser as people make him out to be, that person is tragic? Do you know how many clubs use stats like that to evaluate players? Are those clubs so tragic? Do you realize how unbelievably stupid this sounds?

Pretty sure what @Dobbs and myself are trying to say is you're going overboard with the statistics when it's plain as day to see that Valencia's crossing is not good.

 

[fellaini's barber]

So you are saying that you if there is a stat that shows how accurate someone is at crossing and someone cites it as evidence that Valencia isn't as bad a crosser as people make him out to be, that person is tragic? Do you know how many clubs use stats like that to evaluate players? Are those clubs so tragic? Do you realize how unbelievably stupid this sounds?

Bruv, I don't think there's anybody in any club in the world, who will watch Valencia's crosses, think they're shit, then see some stats and go 'oh, I guess I was wrong, he's great'. The man can't cross, theres no variety or intelligence in his crossing. There's just certain things that you don't need to bring up stats to counter. Unless you don't know what a cross is, there is no way you can watchthe likes of Valencia, J.Navas then watch the likes of KDB, Carvajal, Alves, Marcelo,Eriksen crossing the ball for several seasons and still need stats to tell you who the better crossers are.

 

[Brwned]

That's right I did say that. I didn't say we should dispense with all stats and sack all analytics staff. Which is how you misinterpreted my point.

It's tragic if a football fan can't fully trust his own eyes to judge if a player can cross or not.

True. Our eyes are flawless after all. And we certainly aren't subject to all kinds of external factors which shape our perception of things.

Spoiler

His crossing is woeful and has been for years. No idea why he's so highly regarded, I struggle to see what he offers. His decision making is glacial, he can't cross, he's got no left foot, he struggles to beat a man (and even if he does, he does nothing with it), his passing range is also poor. He's physically strong at least, his defensive positioning is good enough but he offers nothing going forward. Don't you just love when we break away and he gets the ball on the right side of the box, then proceeds to stand over it for 10 seconds while the opposition defense all get back in to position? Yeah, me neither.

Imagine having an overlapping wing back that could drop balls on Lukaku's head and would genuinely stretch opposition defenses and cause them problems.

It's weird how he has been an important part of the team for this entire decade under 4 different managers now when you put it like that. Bloody buffoons.

To you they are but to me that statement is incredibly false even just using the eye test. The stats refute your analysis of his crosses because last season he completed ten more successful crosses than any other player in the league including Kevin De Bruyne. So please explain to me how its obvious that valencias crosses are terrible when he tops the league in crossing accuracy?
Valencia dosen't force us to play narrow. His reluctance to use his left foot has been a recurring problem. I'll admit that, but that only aggravates the fact that we don't player with an actual right winger does, but as Mata/Miki drift inside, so does our gameplay seeing as they are our most creative players with Pogba who also plays through the middle.

That's a total misinterpretation or misrepresentation of the facts, I'm afraid.

 

[fellaini's barber]

His final ball wasn't great for the last two games so people are ready to discredit the last two seasons he has had where his final ball has been really good. Fickle ass cafe.

And really? Did you watch us under LVG when all we did(Rooney mostly) in attack was send the ball to Valencia where it usually ended. I reckon the last 2 seasons is where we actually saw the very worst of Valencia's crossing as at a point it looked like he was our only outlet. It was a subject of several threads iirc, fickle ass cafe indeed

 

[Obiorahking_]

True. Our eyes are flawless after all. And we certainly aren't subject to all kinds of external factors which shape our perception of things.

Spoiler

It's weird how he has been an important part of the team for this entire decade under 4 different managers now when you put it like that. Bloody buffoons.



That's a total misinterpretation or misrepresentation of the facts, I'm afraid.

How is that?

 

[Obiorahking_]

Pretty sure what @Dobbs and myself are trying to say is you're going overboard with the statistics when it's plain as day to see that Valencia's crossing is not good.

Valencia is a bad crosser TO YOU. Valencia being poor at crossing( relative to any other right back in the world) is what you think. Don't claim something as fact when it is your opinion.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Bruv, I don't think there's anybody in any club in the world, who will watch Valencia's crosses, think they're shit, then see some stats and go 'oh, I guess I was wrong, he's great'. The man can't cross, theres no variety or intelligence in his crossing. There's just certain things that you don't need to bring up stats to counter. Unless you don't know what a cross is, there is no way you can watchthe likes of Valencia, J.Navas then watch the likes of KDB, Carvajal, Alves, Marcelo,Eriksen crossing the ball for several seasons and still need stats to tell you who the better crossers are.

Stop speaking for everyone else. I don't think Valencia's crossing is that bad at all compared to what you all are making it out to be and the stats only support what I am saying.