Why is it not possible? The formation France likes to use is not the be all and end all that people seem to think it is. It's the formation that Deschamps likes to use not what's best suited for Pogba and Griezmann. When Matudi is given Pogba's ideal role and Paul is asked to shield the back 4 then Deschamps needs to be questioned rather than it being used as the yardstick for future use.
Antoine Griezmann
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I would be parroting @Invictus' last post if I made a lengthy reply. Suffice it to say it's much less to do with formations over the intrinsic natures of the players in question: it's just what they do how they play the game in general that has made them incompatible and I'll reiterate that it makes no sense to stuff both into a team just to say we have them. Asking one to not be what he is is immediately reductionist and counter-productive.
But its different situations with different players. Im sure people could have posted graph after graph of how Griezmann plays his best stuff as a wide forward before he joined Atletico.
What I will say is Ibra's role and performance yesterday gave me hope for this transfer.
He pulled out wide and supplied our leftback a pass for a goal. He drifted out wide to allow Mkhitaryan to be the furtherst forward and actually crossed the ball into him. He even ran down the wing and played a sloppy pass into Pogba himself who was bursting through the middle. Never mind the amount of goal scoring chances Paul had when Ibra dropped deeper and allowed Pogba to run off him.
Zlatan basically played as a false 9 yesterday and if Jose wants his forward to play that way and thinks Griezmann can supply that then I trust him. It boils down to Jose being correct in his assumption that Antoine can adapt to the role rather than if Pogna and Griezmann can coexist.
I've been high on Griezmann for a long time. I think we have to acknowledge that he has not played that Sociedad role for ages and has established himself as what he is for Atletico almost entirely independent of it. His flexibility is pseudo at best otherwise he would've seamlessly adapted his game to cater for Pogba when playing for France, and it tells us a lot that no compromise in his play has been made. His roaming and movement is very different to Ibra, as is his capacity to facillitate others, which is something Ibra has done for the majority of his career.
For my money, Griezmann has exceptional but very specific game intelligence and it revolves around positioning himself for goal-scoring opportunities rather than combination play or enabling others. He's a recipient rather than an enabler and you have to make that a primary factor when slotting him into a team with such an exuberant and impulsive player as Pogba. Ibra knows intuitively when to combine, or move out of the way and he rarely takes up a channel that gets in the way of someone else if he sees or senses the run they want to make or the space they want to take up.
Herrera - Carrick - Pogba
Mkhitaryan
Griezmann - Ibrahimovic
problem solved eh?Mkhitaryan
Griezmann - Ibrahimovic
Not really. With Miki and Griezmann ahead of him, Pogba is going to be playing deeper than is optimal for him, Carrick or no Carrick. The middle of the pitch is crowded, the wings empty. Why spend a load of money on a player whose role overlaps with our three existing star players? If there's money to be thrown away, use it to get Verratti instead and solve an actual problem.
Still can't believe that shower of shite won the CL.
Re: Griezmann, I wouldn't want him to come as a winger and playing behind the striker he would likely not work well with Pogba indeed. I can only see him as a false 9 of sorts, but can't see José playing without a proper centreforward.
I'd agree that signing Griezmann wouldn't be ideal in a footballing sense, and I'm not in favour of the move anyway. For that quoted situation however, wouldn't the problem only really hinge on Mkhitaryan drifting wide enough in-game to provide Pogba that room? He's played with Tevez (a forward liable to drop to exert more influence) before so Griezmann shouldn't hinder his game too much.
You will need someone with better legs than Carrick then, because he will have to cover that left side.
Who would you rather have given carte blanche to do what he wants in a system out of Griezmann or Pogba?
In the same instance, if you allow one to roam, then the other is 'stuck' in a nominal position and remit, which is not preferable or optimal for them.
Griezmann is reliant on his roaming, as he doesn't have the insane skills of a true support striker that could have him locked into a specific set of spatials on a pitch ala Del Piero or Raul, et al.
@Acquire Me has spoken
I will no doubt be in the minority here (you can say that again) but I don't know what Griezmann would bring to this team. We don't play with a support striker & he isn't particularly the best winger in the world either.
I mean we as supporters have a great deal of belief in Martial & Rashford don't we? If they become as good as they can be - they should be playing in and around the same position Griezmann is- Atleast undertaking similar duties like interlinking play & drifting wide etc.
I'm not doubting his skills & ever since I saw him for socidedad I could see the lad was special but we kind of have players that could grow in to giving us a similar level of input in the not too distant future.
In my opinion unless he is bought to be a left winger - midfielder; he just seems like a player that we would have replace someone one of the same potential capabilities; simply because Griezmann has simply done it quicker.
I mean we as supporters have a great deal of belief in Martial & Rashford don't we? If they become as good as they can be - they should be playing in and around the same position Griezmann is- Atleast undertaking similar duties like interlinking play & drifting wide etc.
I'm not doubting his skills & ever since I saw him for socidedad I could see the lad was special but we kind of have players that could grow in to giving us a similar level of input in the not too distant future.
In my opinion unless he is bought to be a left winger - midfielder; he just seems like a player that we would have replace someone one of the same potential capabilities; simply because Griezmann has simply done it quicker.
If Maureen wants him he has a plan to utilize him. Won't even be bothered questioning Mou's plans, I am sure he's seen the issues for France and will plan accordingly.
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Yeah, one of many many problems.
Like I said, I'd rather we didn't sign Griezmann at all and concentrated on more appropriate aspects to improve like the wings and Carrick's anchoring position.
In answer to the question though, Pogba's dynamism and self-reliance make him the better choice for a focal role imo. Second strikers at the very top level with that sort of spatial awareness and movement can be either/both enablers or/and bases for their teams. The loss in making Pogba an enabler's too heavy in comparison.
What does Griezmann signing have to do with Carricks replacement?
You know clubs can sign more than two players.
People keep suggesting false nine and I'm getting the vibe that only a target man is a proper CF. I dont see why either of those Think about Eto'o at Barcelona. Fast, decent dribbler but not expert, goalscorer. Similar to Griezmann. How do we stop Griezmann and Pogba encroaching on each other's space? Just tell Griezmann to stay up the pitch like a traditional (erstwhile proper) CF and don't get involved until it's time to score goals. Concentrating solely on his qualities, is there any reason he can't perform this role?
Yes!
Well, you basically propose to do what people don't want to do which is to put shackles on either of them.
I heard we're deep in negotiations with Griezmann in another thread. is there anything indicating this?
I don't see it as putting shackles on either of them. Pogba has no No.10 in his way and Griezmann has what is required to play the Eto'o/Aguero role.
I don't understand what you mean. The more freedom Pogba is given to roam the more cover/legwork Carrick needs to provide, which isn't ideal at his age. Nothing to do with signing Griezmann.
Griezmann isn't Aguero or Eto'o, he is more like Tevez, his game is all about roaming around particularly in the #10 area. If you ask him to not do that, you are effectively signing a different player to the one you scouted.
That poster has proven to be a reliable ITK.
This could work. It's similar to how we would end up normally if Mkhitaryan and Martial started on the wings, with Mkhi drifting inside.
I dont expect Carrick to start next year but ya never know.
Read your post
You do realise that Mourinho most likely has identified a replacement for Carrick?
Especially as he is letting Schneiderlin go and wants Schweinsteiger gone.
Signing a replacement for Carrick has nothing to do with if we sign Griezmann or not.
Proven how?
He hasn't really proven.
But said all along from December last year that Jose was coming regardless of what happened.
Don't know what other stuff he's got right.
Ah right. I meant that instead of upsetting the balance of a team that would get the best out of Pogba (by signing Griezmann), improve on the team that would do just that by improving on Carrick and Lingard/Rooney/Young/Rashford. Not that signing Griezman would mean we couldn't sign anyone else.
Similar to Ibra for us then?
I thought the industry he works in was common knowledge in here.
He was right about Mou, and he got the Pogba deal right and stuck to his guns when everyone thought the transfer was bollocks or dead in the water.
Yeah, that's why in theory the best way to use both is probably to not change the current system and just replace Ibrahimovic with Griezmann but some posters think that he isn't physical enough to be the only striker in a team managed by Mourinho.
Bof
He seems slightly different to Ibra though. Or Tevez or Messi (when he was CF). Those players seem to ponder on the ball a little, pass it about and then exploit the opening. Griezmann seems to want to play quickly, create space then exploit it immediately. A bit like Suarez, he has no chill. Maybe I'm just watching too many videos of his goals on YT.
Greizmann-Martial-Mkhi
-----Pogba-Herrera
-----Veratti/Carvalho
Fluid front three, constantly interchanging.
-----Pogba-Herrera
-----Veratti/Carvalho
Fluid front three, constantly interchanging.
I don't care if United play 4 players with more offensive roles than Pogba, or 5, or 6, or play him at centerback. Pogba is at his best when he's given the freedom to roam and improvise - he thrives on that, and that sense of tactical freedom is why he emerged as an elite player at Juventus - where Vidal/Khedira and Pirlo/Marchisio provided the platform for Pogba to excel as a dynamo, and the same is true at United where he's evidenced an upturn in form and offensive contributions with the backing of Carrick and Herrera. Whereas Griezmann hit his Atlético peak with deep central midfielders (iterations of Gabi, Tiago, Saúl) - who sacrificed a lot in their games, pressed and harried and with a tucked in Koke, laid the groundwork for him to pick his spots behind the lead striker - that just doesn't work well with a roamer in Pogba.
The classification of Pogba as a generic 'central midfielder' and Griezmann as a generic 'forward' is why their roles are misinterpreted. The same happened with Gerrard (another player who thrived on tactical freedom) when he was forced into a generic central midfielder role at Liverpool until the arrival of Benítez - who surrounded him with Alonso and Mascherano - which liberated Gerrard:
Champions League final where he helped revive the team after Hamann's introduction in the second half (after they got sliced open and were trailing 3-0 with Kewell playing as the 'forward'):
Strongly disagree with the 'major indictment' part wrt. coaching ability, too - it's not as simple as chucking two potentially great players into the XI and expecting the manager to find a way to play them at their highest levels, especially when they don't evidence workable synergy for France - relative to each player's best level. It would be akin to forcing a 'central midfielder' in Gerrard and a 'forward' in Kaká into the same areas, when they're bound to overlap unless Gerrard is curtailed, or becomes more tactically aware (Seedorf in Milan's Christmas Tree).
Disagree with the Griezmann on the right part, too. We have Mkhitaryan who transitions into central regions, and adding someone who offers decent creativity (but not great) and is also a good but not great dribbler in Griezmann on the other side will severely curtail the attacking potential of the team. It's not comparable to Messi and Neymar at Barcelona either - because they're both among the most creative players and dribblers in football (especially in comparison with Griezmann).
Also disagree with the last part. It's not just about playing someone who's more disciplined, it's often a numbers game in the crucial central areas of the pitch - you're still going to ask Pogba to track back more than he should, and most importantly - isolating the central midfielder (something we saw in the City game where we were all over the place from a tactical perspective as Pogba surged forward, and improved substantially with the introduction of Herrera as the midfield third).
Not to mention, De Bruyne had a field day in the spaces behind Pogba, and Mkhitaryan was forced central because we just couldn't handle their midfield in the first half:
I agree with a lot of the points you're making. Having the right balance in your team is crucial. People listing 11 names in a 4-2-3-1 (or any other) formation and saying what an amazing 11 it is completely misses the point.
I clearly oversimplified it by calling Pogba a central midfield player. I find the pigeon holing of midfield players as holding/box to box/number 10 really frustrating. What you need is a midfield with styles and skills that complement each other, not one of each of these 3 categories.
The most interesting comparison you made was Scholes/Veron. The issue here was that the rest of the team wasn't set up to allow Veron into the side. With forwards on the wings like Ronaldo or Solskjaer (who got there eventually) the balance would have worked better but replacing a striker with Veron in a really settled side unbalanced the team. I think Stam leaving was the main reason it failed but I am going off topic now.
The point about Griezmann is that this is not a settled United side and the balance of the current team is still not right. Martial/Rashford are not enough of a goal threat from the left and while Miki/Mata will chip in with a few goals, they don't score enough to be the second biggest goal threat in a title winning side. When Ibra drops deep there isn't enough of a penalty box threat in the team.
This United team doesn't lack creativity. It lacks players who can make runs for the creative players to pick out. Lingard is a limited player but makes intelligent runs off the ball which adds a lot to the attacking play at times. It would be great to get a player who can make the runs, be creative and score 20 goals but I'm not sure such a player exists who is available.
The way Griezmann played off Giroud in the Euros suggests he and Ibra could be a very dangerous combination. I'm not even sure Griezmann is the answer but this United team needs more goal threat. If Pogba's presence means they can't fit in another forward player to provide that then that will be a big problem.
I think adding defensive discipline to his game will make Pogba a far better player. I prefer him starting from a deeper role and using his athleticism and power in midfield. I don't think the Gerrard comparison is a good one. I understand where you're coming from but they are very different players. Gerrard was a very individual player which made him a better forward than a midfield player. Pogba needs licence to break forward but isn't as effective when starting in a forward position.
Look at Mata or Lingard in the current United side. Both drift all across the attacking line. Different players to Greizmann for sure but I don't understand this "only Pogba can be given licence to roam" mentality. Fluidity in attacking areas is the hallmark of Mourinho's United.
Looks like you lads never stepped into the Pogba transfer thread? If @Acquire Me says something's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.
All of Mourinho's transfers in the summer have looked extremely astute. Compare that to the topsy turvy record we had over the previous 3 seasons. Jose is 4 for 4. All of his signings have infuse considerable quality and top mentality into the squad. All of Pogba, Micky and Ibra have proven to be individual match winners. Mourinho is an excellent manager. All the debates on here are pretty moot. He can target any player he wants. If he says he wants Griezmann, above all others, then he obviously has a plan for him - and I'm excited to see that. Jose will know exactly what role Pogba will play in such a system, and would not be banking on such unless he was certain he could do it to the highest possible standards. The other issue, is that Pogba is what? 23. To suggest his evolution as a player is finished, is laughable. He is going to learn so much under Mourinho, about all the transitions and phases of play. It will make him a much better player, than just letting him roam all the time. If you watch him closely now, you see how great he is at getting up and down the pitch and pressing.
If @Acquire Me info is reliable that we really try to bring Griezman to OT, then I'm sure Jose must have plan how to play Griezman in his system. and yeah, in Jose I trust! if this transfer happen, I hope it will be successful transfer.
It's not similar to Ibra because Ibra is a perfect conduit for others to play through and off and he absolutely loves that kind of interplay and understands it to the point it is intrinsic to his style as a player. It's not just that Ibra is a physical beast who has exceptional hold-up play, it's that he makes it his business to be that for others when and as they need it. He can bring a whole attack into a build-up and have others run beyond him all game comfortable in the knowledge he'll not only keep hold of the ball, but also play them in if they make a good run. As soon as he does that, he'll vacate the space he was occupying, which brings the midfielder(s) behind him into the build-up (usually Pogba) and he'll then look for the optimal position to go into that gets him out of the way of others whilst still allowing him to be a goal-scoring threat. It's a lot of understated work that can bring as many as five more players into an attack.
Griezmann is nippy, cunning, opportunistic and wants to play off the work of others with perfectly ghosted runs into space and the kind of timing that has had him branded one of the most intelligent players out there. His whole game revolves around exploiting a developing play as and when he sees fit with others enabling him to do so all game long. He's not thinking of others in the same way as Ibra does and isn't going to make the same kind of instinctual choices or be a reliable nominal #10.
I think everyone I've seen in this thread is a fan of the player, but there have to be doubts about him in our team.
It's not that only Pogba has such a licence, it's that roaming players should not clash and only cross paths intentionally during intricate interplay that befuddles the opposing markers whilst creating chaos they can benefit from. Harping on about France again, we see what happens in relation to these two when they play - they get in each others' way unintentionally and then it looks like one or the other is making conscious decisions not to do this or that which would otherwise be a staple of their game. One or the other, or even both, are then compromised.
France almost have an obligation to try and get these two to work together somehow someway beings as they are the foundations of the next potentially great side, but at club level, a manager is embarking on a costly exercise both literally and figuratively of his own volition when putting these two in the same team and, I'm assuming, trying to get the absolute best out of both of them at the same time.
Personally, if he came here and it didn't work out, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised. If Jose could get them both to optimum without curtailing them, I'd be seriously impressed.
Imo we'll sign a midfield destroyer, hence the links to Bagayoko, and go with a midfield two. Which would free up a space in the team, which would go to Griezmann as a support striker or no.10.
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