And he's wrong about United winning nothing in 15/16.
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And he's wrong about United winning nothing in 15/16.
Well what would be the honest way to frame it? He said our best form came when Martial was at his best rather than Rashford. Which is wrong.
Fair do’s. We won the FA Cup. We finished 5th though.
Rashford is better but in the rare moments that Martial has a good game he gets the front line playing well. When Rashford shines he shines as alone. Giroud even with his low goal scoring stats would have been wonderful for our front line.
He said our "best ever spells of football" which I took to mean best attacking spells or period where we were the most competent going forward. Rashford was excellent for much of last season but we were hardly very good as an attacking side (not saying that's his fault). Martial's best season (in my opinion) is the 19/20 one where he lead the line and was one of the best strikers in the league, bagging 19 goals without any pens and in general was fantastic all around. I also tend to think that was our best football we've played in the past decade especially in the lockdown period with him, Rashford, and Greenwood in front of Bruno and Pogba.
Everyone wants that classic bruising striker for us but with a player like Rashford you'd get the best out of him instead with a Benzema /Firmino/Martial type that's unselfish and willing to drop deeper to allow that space for Rashford to cut inwards. I really think that's where our striker search should be leading us, with a more technical 9 rather than some goal obsessed box striker that's just going to get in Rashford's way and make many of the same runs.
It would still be wrong because surely that would be the 6 league games we won in a row when Ole took over. A spell in which Rashford scored five goals and had three assists. A spell in which Martial had one of each. In 19/20 Rashford was playing brilliantly until he broke his back.
Either way you are creating an argument that poster didn’t make.
Okay, so Rashford is a quantifiable better player, but that wasn't the argument I was making. I wasn't comparing statistical outputs but rather their playing attributes and my point is Martial has attributes that are better suited to teamplay therefore the team plays better when he's on song - The lesser can be said about Rashford. Again that does not mean Rashford is a much worse player than Martial. A player like Firmino is a better foil for Salah and Mane than Aguero even though Aguero is a statistically superior striker. We're talking about team building here so forget about Martial, we need players of his profile i.e. ones who make the team play better and not rely on just their g/a output. That'd always be the minus on Rashford's part.
But it’s based on a version of Martial that doesn’t have a great deal of basis in reality. It’s not like Martial gets on the ball and passes much better Rashford. People have just decided that is true. The facts paint a different picture.
Of course the team plays better if Rashford is on song. The fact he isn’t is a big part of why we’ve struggled to score goals all season. If he isn’t on form, we’re toothless. We’ll have to agree to disagree on Martial making us play better.
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With all due respects, your personal interpretation of stats does not equal to facts.
When I’m saying he scores and assists more then they do. Anything else being spouted here is baseless opinion and the stats are the only evidence we have. If he was much much much better at creating for others or linking play the stats would prove it.
You are kind of proving my point here. Rashford playing well does not mean the team is playing well. It only means he's either scoring or assisting. Obviously what more can you ask for except when he's not doing these, he does very little else to help the team (I cited Firmino and I'll even add Kane as examples. Conversely, compare Haaland and Alvarez or Aguero and Jesus for City).
We don't have to agree to disagree, ETH clearly believes this too. Rashford had his best scoring season last year yet ETH multiple times during that season lamented about Martial's prolonged absence citing the team plays better with him in it.
Why don’t you go look at some of the recent videos posted in the Rashford thread and try defending his stats there? Look at the options he takes and the passes he doesn’t make and tell everyone they are all wrong and football is meant to be played by numbers only.
Why do you have to continuously take aim at Martial? Wouldn’t you want a fit and firing Martial in the team (even if it seems a pipe dream by now?)
The fact his goals & assists were key in us achieving multiple victories last year pours water on this reductive point. Last season the team relied on Rashford to score or assist to win games - that’s a direct impact on team performance.
Firminho did feck all for Liverpool before Salah & Mane, & Kane has had to move to Germany to win something. If you expect Rashford to be Rooney reborn then you’re always going to be disappointed. Why are you comparing him to players who don’t even play his position. . .
I don’t know how you come to the conclusion you have in your first paragraph.
He’s not saying the team is better having Martial than Rashford. He’s saying it’s better than having Weghorst
Performance and results are different things. You need both to be regarded as a good team. We've had 3 results so far this season but will you say the performances were any good? Arguably our best performance this season was against Arsenal and we didn't get a result there. We were scoring goals and getting results with Ronaldo but we all could see the performances were lacking.
Also, I didn't say Rashford's goals and assists are moot. The debate that's being had is about why many are calling for him to be dropped. Since we've all agreed his core contribution to the team is to score and assist and while he's doing none of that, the counterargument is that Martial would be better suited as his attributes have and should enable the team to be more cohesive, thereby improving overall team performance. We are talking about team building and how certain players with certain attributes complement the team better regardless of their own individual limitations. Firmino did feck all before Salah and Mane yet was beloved by the coaches, teammates, and fans. Go figure
I was replying to the point you made earlier about the fact that Rashford isn't scoring is part of why we are struggling to score goals all season. He's our main goalscorer but not our only goal-scorer. Hojland could have had a couple more goals if Rashford wasn't looking after his own. We all want Rashford to be a well-rounded player as his goals and assists are clearly not sustainable for the team in the long term.
I’ve just rewatched the FA Cup victory and that Martial was alright.
Rashford still doing the same things he did back then, played alright though.
Rashford still doing the same things he did back then, played alright though.
Turns out the scout record was comparing them to different types of players. Your stats where wrong as well though as you had added Martials Sevilla stats which doesnt really tell us anything about his United performance.
Here is their respective United careers compared on a per 90 basis, as overall career is useless given that Rashford has played 6000 minutes more than Martial for United.
https://fbref.com/tiny/2q9u1
Overall Martials G+A per 90 is higher than Rashfords. So is his progressive passe, his shot creation, progressive runs per 90 (that was a shock for me I have to admit), his succesful take ons etc. Defensively Rashford is better is better per 90, but that isnt saying much, as they both dont really offer anything defensively.
The issue with Martial is not his performance when he is fit, he is very good when fit. The issue is that he is not fit and thus not reliable in the long run. But in this season where we are struggling we should absolutely use him when he is fit.
I said the team is struggling to score goals because Rashford isn’t on song. You made it about him alone scoring goals. Rashford is the only one to actually set up a goal for Hojlund. In fact, I think he’s just about the only one to create any chances for him.
You might want to look at your stats again. Martial didn’t sign for United in 2016. You may also want to explain how his assisting was much much much much much much much much better.
I’m not sure why his Sevilla or Monaco form isn’t relevant if we’re comparing them as overall players. Rashford is also younger so a fairer way to do it would be to compare them from the same age.
As opposed to a midtable English club
I’m not taking aim at Martial. I’m defending a ridiculous attack on another player. I didn’t make the comparison. Why wouldn’t you want a fit and firing Rashford instead of revelling in a video edited to remove any positive thing he did?
A few of Hojlunds goal chances were created by Marcus. For me our right side not being able to create or score goals is a bigger worry. That side is way more dead the wingers and fullbacks don't bring enough assits or goals.Its dead weight. The return of Antony doesn't excite me at all. Rashford and Hojlund are direct goal threats they should he balanced out by a creator on the right. Sancho's failure hits so hard for me.
Indeed. If it was more effective then it would also create more space for Rashford. Currently the opposition know he’s our only threat.
The stats compare their time at United. And only that which is the best reflexion of how they have performed for United. Why would it be relevant to look at Martial for Sevilla given that Rashford has never played there and thus the comparrisson would be flawed.
Like I said the scouting report is flawed in that it compared martial to other forwards but Rashford only to wingers. If we use Rashford compared to other forwards their assist per 90 is closer, even though over their entire career Martial is higher, but for United its almost identical.
Overall the offensive stats for United per 90 are better for Martial. The reason I am doing this is because of your attack on Martial to defend Rashford.
And just for context I am not one of those who want to sell Rashford. My personal opinion is he needs to learn to adapt to us playing with a striker that does the correct runs. He is not used to that so I am willing to give him time to adapt.
But they don’t even do that because Martial didn’t sign for United in 2016. I haven’t attacked Martial. I defended Rashford from your ridiculous assertion that Martial’s assist stats are muchx9 times better than Rashford’s. It was garbage.
Rashford is also almost two years younger than Martial so you would be comparing an 18 year old to a 20 year old. By excluding Monaco and Sevilla all you do is skew the stats towards Martial. Particularly because that excludes his worst spell but includes Rashford’s. I haven’t excluded anything to validate my point.
We dont know Martial would have been playing for United like he did for Sevilla. The tactics really didnt suit him. Martial has usually always performed quite well for United when fit. Martials problem is that he is rarely fit.
Rashfords problems are quite different.
Also no, I didnt compare assists before your claim that Rashford assists and scores much more than Martial, which isnt exactly true given Martials g+a per 90 is higher than Rashfords. .
But it’s a fact that he has scored and assisted more. You said his assist stats per 90 minutes were much much much much much much much better. They’re identical. But you’ve removed Martial’s worst form and included Rashford’s. You also haven’t included Martial’s first season. You were making a comment on them as players. Why would we ignore parts of their career?
We can have a fair idea of how he would’ve done at United given his terrible form the season before and the first half of that same season. Martial’s spell at Sevilla is more indicative of the player he is now than the player he was 8 years ago. He isn’t that player anymore and hasn’t been for a long time.
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I still believe he will come good. He has potential
Not if you go on a per 90 basis, which is the most correct. I havent removed Martials form for United. I have compared their minutes played for United. Thats it.
He should start tonight for the benefit of the team.
Agree, he’s our best CF currently. Bring on Hojlund against tired legs. We need them both firing this season.
Yes, if you go on a per 90 basis. It’s in the link you provided. They both had 0.2 assists per 90 minutes but you haven’t included all of Martial’s United career. You started in 16/17 for one. If you include his 15/16 season then Martial’s assists are slightly worse. You just refuse to acknowledge your initial statement was wildly inaccurate.
In addition to this it’s only for Premier League. Rashford has a much better scoring rate in the Champions League than Martial.
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Man Utd 2:1 Brentford
He did everything for us not to win. Always trying to win a free kick instead of fighting, then the pointless flick, and then the souless shoot on target.
Not the player you want to bring on when chasing a result. No heart, hunger or desire. A nothing player.
Got into good positions, but you can see he lacks match fitness.
Has to be scoring that chance in the 95th minute. Thankfully we got the winner.
Should start ahead of Rashford on LW
Horrible. Just fecking horrible.
He has it all.
He just plays with the intensity of a casual five a side with the boys on a Tuesday night.
And he's never gonna change that, he just doesn't have it in him. The hunger isn't there.
He has it all.
He just plays with the intensity of a casual five a side with the boys on a Tuesday night.
And he's never gonna change that, he just doesn't have it in him. The hunger isn't there.
So we’re gonna bash him when we are 1-0 down and the bus is parked the last 20 minutes of the games while he’s one of the two upfront some people on here are just trying to divert the heat from the people that are playing every week and keep serving us a bag of bad performances.
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