[Roux]

Of course there are valid reasons but you noticed that most of the ones you mentioned are football related while your first post wasn't about Football. Now if we follow your logic 80% of our team should be sold immediately but it won't happen because common sense prevails which goes back to the point I made earlier, I'm for selling but not at all cost just at a cost that benefits United.

Most of them? are you sure? I'd say 3/4 of the ones i mentioned are the mental side of the game.

Regardless, he should be moved on for ALL the reasons i mentioned.

 

[VP89]

His attitude is shite or you don't like the style that he has always had?

I mean his attidue on the pitch. And that's always been the case. He has been a streaky player all career (thus far but hes not that young anymore).

Conditions need to be opportune for him to flourish and he's no way near proactive enough. Jose when manager said Martial would sulk, according to the Times. Rangnick had half a minute and Martial wanted out to a new club. Then that new clubs manager didn't take long to say has to "give much more"

This counts toward attitude. Unless lazyness, lack of willing to fight for spots and casual football too often is all a part of "style of play".

 

[JPRouve]

Most of them? are you sure? I'd say 3/4 of the ones i mentioned are the mental side of the game.

Regardless, he should be moved on for ALL the reasons i mentioned.

Yes most of them.

Laziness, is your football perception of what a player should do which isn't actually universally required.
Lack of goals is a football reason.
Influence on the wing is a football reason.
Injuries are also a football reason because it leads to being less available which is also why he didn't play more for Sevilla.
You are then left with off field issues.

 

[Roux]

Yes most of them.

Laziness, is your football perception of what a player should do which isn't actually universally required.
Lack of goals is a football reason.
Influence on the wing is a football reason.
Injuries are also a football reason because it leads to being less available which is also why he didn't play more for Sevilla.
You are then left with off field issues.

nice try - but not quite:

Laziness - all mental
Sulking - all mental
Injuries - he doesn't have the mental strength to deal with knocks, he'd rather sit out.
Influence on the wing - again, laziness and lacks the intelligence/understanding.
Lack of goals - imo, because of all the above.

Proof you can all the footballing talent in the world, but if you don't have the mental toughness - you'll struggle to reach a certain level, Martial is about as fragile as you can get.

 

[JPRouve]

nice try - but not quite:

Laziness - all mental
Sulking - all mental
Injuries - he doesn't have the mental strength to deal with knocks, he'd rather sit out.
Influence on the wing - again, laziness and lacks the intelligence/understanding.
Lack of goals - imo, because of all the above.

Proof you can all the footballing talent in the world, but if you don't have the mental toughness - you'll struggle to reach a certain level.

To me that's interesting particularly the wing part, Martial isn't a winger, he has never been winger, he hasn't been developed as a winger and yet you expect him to be a winger otherwise he is a lazy or lacks intelligence. That to me is a Football issue, you want a different player which I can understand but to turn it into something else is strange.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

"Laziness" is mostly a fan term.

If a player consistently fails to carry out basic instructions (tracking back, say) - then he'll be dropped unless the manager/head coach is a mug.

The fact that a player's off-the-ball movement doesn't fit your idea of what he should do isn't proof that he's "lazy".

 

[JPRouve]

"Laziness" is mostly a fan term.

If a player consistently fails to carry out basic instructions (tracking back, say) - then he'll be dropped unless the manager/head coach is a mug.

The fact that a player's off-the-ball movement doesn't fit your idea of what he should do isn't proof that he's "lazy".

Exactly. While it makes sense for someone to suggest that they want a different profile, it's a bit daft to go with things like laziness, toughness or sulking, especially when the same players was lauded while having the same traits.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Martial isn't a winger, he has never been winger

Correct.

As I've said countless times on here, he's a hybrid of sorts.

It isn't easy to fit him into a standard setup.

For me, he's a second striker (of some kind). Not a pure #9. Definitely not a "winger".

 

[Roux]

To me that's interesting particularly the wing part, Martial isn't a winger, he has never been winger, he hasn't been developed as a winger and yet you expect him to be a winger otherwise he is a lazy or lacks intelligence. That to me is a Football issue, you want a different player which I can understand but to turn it into something else is strange.

He's played left-wing for the majority of his entire United career. He's ineffective as a CF. Can't play RW.

But yes - he's lazy and doesn't have the intelligence to be a top class player in that position (or any position) because of this mental state. Compare that to a 37yo Ronaldo who is playing nearly every game with a sore hip, dragging this team through the mud...

You seem to find the obvious strange/baffling. Weird.

 

[Roux]

"Laziness" is mostly a fan term.

If a player consistently fails to carry out basic instructions (tracking back, say) - then he'll be dropped unless the manager/head coach is a mug.

The fact that a player's off-the-ball movement doesn't fit your idea of what he should do isn't proof that he's "lazy".

Which is why he's been dropped by multiple United managers, sent on loan and dropped by the team he went on loan to!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

...sulking...

Yeah - that one.

Martial's standard/default look is...a bit miserable. It's considered a photo opportunity whenever he smiles.

But that - obviously - is his personality. It doesn't actually have anything to do with his "attitude" - it's just how he normally comes across. And it hasn't changed one bit over time - it was noted, by fans, that he didn't look particularly joyful from day one.

Point being - this is utterly irrelevant. People use the way he looks (on camera) as an indication of - again - attitude (behind the scenes).

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Which is why he's been dropped by multiple United managers, sent on loan and dropped by the team he went on loan to!

Alternatively, he's been dropped because he's been shite (but not because there's something fundamentally wrong with his attitude).

It is possible to be a) a wrong fit and b) mentally out of sorts without having an inherently poor attitude (being "lazy", for instance).

 

[Roux]

Yeah - that one.

Martial's standard/default look is...a bit miserable. It's considered a photo opportunity whenever he smiles.

But that - obviously - is his personality. It doesn't actually have anything to do with his "attitude" - it's just how he normally comes across. And it hasn't changed one bit over time - it was noted, by fans, that he didn't look particularly joyful from day one.

Point being - this is utterly irrelevant. People use the way he looks (on camera) as an indication of - again - attitude (behind the scenes).

How is this irrelevant? This is his team mates for god's sake!

His new team-mates, according to Martin, tried to help. “He was given a lot of love from the dressing room, but he didn’t give it back. He was cold and distant. Nothing with the media either. An interview with the official channels when he signed but nothing in the press room, nor with the supporters. There was complete indifference to him – he wasn’t even whistled. He didn’t play in the final games and nobody cared.”

Roy Keane looked miserable every game but he backed it up with fight and passion - and at a minimum, that's the least fans want to see. There are many times where Martial looks like he genuinely doesn't want to be there.

 

[Roux]

Alternatively, he's been dropped because he's been shite (but not because there's something fundamentally wrong with his attitude).

It is possible to be a) a wrong fit and b) mentally out of sorts without having an inherently poor attitude (being "lazy", for instance).

Nobody is disputing this. Which is why i said it isn't solely down to being attitude related, but it's played a part for sure.

 

[JPRouve]

He's played left-wing for the majority of his entire United career. He's ineffective as a CF. Can't play RW.

But yes - he's lazy and doesn't have the intelligence to be a top class player in that position (or any position) because of this mental state. Compare that to a 37yo Ronaldo who is playing nearly every game with a sore hip, dragging this team through the mud...

You seem to find the obvious strange/baffling. Weird.

He was effective as an inside forward for LVG. Mourinho started 17/18 and 18/19 with Rashford as as starter but Martial gained a starting spot every times and then they were rotated, he was one of our best players during Mourinho's last season, including a 6 games(7goals) scoring streak under Mourinho from the spot where you said he had no influence. He was pretty effective in 19-20 as a striker and then we can agree that he was poor in terms of finishing in 20-21 which ended with a knee ligament tear.

That's why I find it weird what you deem obvious is far from obvious. Keeping in mind that we bought a striker and pushed him wide where he registered a healthy amount of goals assists despite looking awkward and lacking traits of a typical wide player.

Personally I think that he is a squad player and that's not what we purchased him for which is why moving on makes sense but I'm not going to make wild claims about his attitude or reinvent his time at United to justify it and also won't demand that United put itself in a tough spot just to validate my opinion. And I apply the same logic to Lindelof, Wan Bissaka, Shaw, Dalot, McTominay, Rashford, De Gea or Henderson.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

How is this irrelevant? This is his team mates for god's sake!

I said, above, that I'm playing devil's advocate here. I am not a fan of Martial - quite to the contrary. I have zero faith in him and would be very happy if we managed (somehow) to get rid of him.

I can't know how accurate what you posted above is (you didn't even post a link - just a quote).

In general, though, the fan perception of a player's "attitude" is usually based on nothing at all.

 

[crossy1686]

Still don’t see why he can’t be useful? Rashford has been given chance after chance. We can’t lose more attackers without replacing them. If a decent offer came in then we should consider it but it’s pointless loaning him out again.

You can’t keep giving people chances who aren’t good enough because someone else who isn’t good enough also gets too many chances, that’s a total sunk cost fallacy.

I’m sure we’ll be able to get a stop gap striker in for a season, even if we end up selling martial for £10m. It’s better to get rid than keep him.

 

[wolvored]

It doesnt matter how he looks sulky most of the time, its his actual attitude. First season he was very good and then we had to wait a long time until Ole came then he had another season, then he went shit again and has been since. So VG apart and Ole for a bit, he has played atrocious for most of the time here, under different managers. He has gone to another club and its the same, so its not playing for Utd. He has the ability as we have seen it. This means its all about his attitude. TH move him on please.

 

[Roux]

I said, above, that I'm playing devil's advocate here. I am not a fan of Martial - quite to the contrary. I have zero faith in him and would be very happy if we managed (somehow) to get rid of him.

I can't know how accurate what you posted above is (you didn't even post a link - just a quote).

In general, though, the fan perception of a player's "attitude" is usually based on nothing at all.

Fan and Journalist, doesn't seem like the were breaking the door to keep him does it?

https://theathletic.com/3339094/2022/05/30/anthony-martial-sevilla-manchester-united/

 

[Lewnited]

Maybe it really is.

We don't actually know all that much about his attitude, though - we base almost all of our assumptions about him on how he appears on the pitch. Which is hardly a scientific measure of attitude.

We can conclude that he's been shite for months on end (including his spell in Spain) - but how much of that has to do with his basic attitude...and how much is down to other factors (a player's mentality is normally not a constant thing - it changes all the time).

This is me playing devil's advocate, to be clear - I think Martial is useless. But I would like to be proven wrong (I really would).

This is pretty much where I stand on him. I've pretty much lost all faith in him at this point but if he is to stay, I'd love to see him turn it around.

A few years ago I genuinely though he showed almost all the necessary attributes to become a top class #9. I'd argue he was 5/10 'scrappy' goals a season away from this, gelling brilliantly with Rashford, Greenwood and Bruno in the process... then he fell of a cliff pretty horribly.

I don't have any particular animosity towards him though, he's suffered just like near enough every other attacking player that's joined us in the last 10 years. If he goes then it should be when we can fetch a good enough fee for him, if he stays then I hope he turns it around.

 

[JPRouve]

Fan and Journalist, doesn't seem like the were breaking the door to keep him does it?

https://theathletic.com/3339094/2022/05/30/anthony-martial-sevilla-manchester-united/

He is took expensive. But interestingly Sevilla's director comment aren't negative at all.

 

[RVN1991]

Something still makes me think he’s going to tear it up and I know it’s a fool’s hope. Honestly the natural talent and expectations we had versus where he is now is sickening.

Yeah he'll probably go to Turkey or some other third tier league and tear it up there I can see that as well.

 

[Roux]

He is took expensive. But interestingly Sevilla's director comment aren't negative at all.

Still pretty damning regarding his attitude though.

 

[JPRouve]

Still pretty damning regarding his attitude though.

In which way?

 

[Roux]

In which way?

The parts i already quoted. Didn't really seem like he wanted to be there either - great trait to have for a team game of course.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Fan and Journalist, doesn't seem like the were breaking the door to keep him does it?

https://theathletic.com/3339094/2022/05/30/anthony-martial-sevilla-manchester-united/

Right, that's what I thought - it's about the loan.

Well - sure, that doesn't paint him in a very good light.

To me, it's quite simple: this is a player on huge money whose reputation is shite at the moment (for good reasons - he's been shite). I have zero faith in him, I doubt very much that he'll ever be anything but an annoyance for United (I can easily see a scenario where we have to loan him again, paying parts of his salary, who knows).

But his actual "attitude" isn't something I can comment on with any authority. Perhaps he's extremely low on confidence - who knows.

 

[Roux]

Right, that's what I thought - it's about the loan.

Well - sure, that doesn't paint him in a very good light.

To me, it's quite simple: this is a player on huge money whose reputation is shite at the moment (for good reasons - he's been shite). I have zero faith in him, I doubt very much that he'll ever be anything but an annoyance for United (I can easily see a scenario where we have to loan him again, paying parts of his salary, who knows).

But his actual "attitude" isn't something I can comment on with any authority. Perhaps he's extremely low on confidence - who knows.

I agree with him becoming an annoyance - it's a sad situation for someone who had so much potential.

The attitude part for me - is more about is he willing to give his all for this club? Or any club for that matter. Can we bring him on when losing to stir a change? Is he willing to push through the pain barrier to play?
He's never going to have that, he's completely emotionless, passionless and absent - those are just my observations when i watch him.

 

[Mickeza]

I honestly don’t know why people are banging on about attitude at Seville - he picked up 4 separate injuries there - that’s the sodding issue. He currently can’t stay fit for any period of time to get into form and build up any confidence. Unless he’s willing himself injuries his attitude is irrelevant.

 

[JPRouve]

The parts i already quoted. Didn't really seem like he wanted to be there either - great trait to have for a team game of course.

The part you quoted says nothing about someone's attitude, Martial is a comically quiet guy and seems a bit awkward. There is nothing damning about it unless you expect everyone to be extroverted.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The attitude part for me - is more about is he willing to give his all for this club? Or any club for that matter. Can we bring him on when losing to stir a change? Is he willing to push through the pain barrier to play?
He's never going to have that, he's completely emotionless, passionless and absent - those are just my observations when i watch him.

And you could very well be right.

(I won't bet any money on you being wrong.)

There's a very slight possibility that a new manager/coach could get something out him, though.

He's still on our books - and he's on huge money. The realistic alternatives aren't that great: nobody wants him. He's overpaid and his reputation is shit. Not a great combo. Typical of United in the post-SAF era, though.

Either ETH somehow manages to use him (in what capacity - who knows), or we're looking at a player who'll be in the top 5 earners but who's actually pretty much useless for one more season.

 

[Roux]

The part you quoted says nothing about someone's attitude, Martial is a comically quiet guy and seems a bit awkward. There is nothing damning about it unless you expect everyone to be extroverted.

He was cold and distant? Nobody cared that he left? I think you're giving him far to many excuses.

- and it backs up what Mourinho said about him and the reasons for wanting to sell him.

The Times report claims Mourinho wanted the Frenchman sold because he was ‘mentally weak’ for a Premier League player, and would be seen sulking when things weren’t going his way on the pitch.

He was right.

 

[Roux]

And you could very well be right.

(I won't bet any money on you being wrong.)

There's a very slight possibility that a new manager/coach could get something out him, though.

He's still on our books - and he's on huge money. The realistic alternatives aren't that great: nobody wants him. He's overpaid and his reputation is shit. Not a great combo. Typical of United in the post-SAF era, though.

Either ETH somehow manages to use him (in what capacity - who knows), or we're looking at a player who'll be in the top 5 earners but who's actually pretty much useless for one more season.

I'd like nothing more than to see him succeed under ETH, but it would require a drastic 180 in terms of his ability, injuries, attitude, desire etc - and for me it's just too much to change overnight. And you're right, his enormous salary for what we are getting in return is alarming. Best for all parties to move him on imo.

 

[JPRouve]

He was cold and distant? Nobody cared that he left? I think you're giving him far to many excuses.

- and it backs up what Mourinho said about him and the reasons for wanting to sell him.



He was right.

He doesn't need excuses for being an introvert. What you deem damning is a fairly common personality, I'll be honest it never occurred to me that people had to be warm and social.

Also Mourinho can do one, when a player is positive he calls him a virus and when a player is a loner and not smily he also has a problem.

 

[Roux]

He doesn't need excuses for being an introvert. What you deem damning is a fairly common personality, I'll be honest it never occurred to me that people had to be warm and social.

Being cold and distant towards your teammates isn't necessary because he's an introvert - but you're using that as an excuse for some bizarre reason to justify it. Could be many reasons for that behavior - I suspect it more to do with him being on 250k a week, can't get into United's 11 and not exactly lighting it up over there. Correctly predicted by Mourinho as i said - attitude does matter.

 

[VP89]

Bit baffling we are still questioning his traits. Hes been reported to sulk under one manager, ran away from the interim in search of a change of scenary and was openly criticised straight from the debut on his loan deal.

I dont think we need to be body language experts to know hes too disinterested too often. It's there for everyone to see and its nothing to do with "style of play". I am all for effortless gliding through players, which he is capable of. But the gripes are on the other sides to his game which is evident across multiple managers, two different teams and two different leagues now.

 

[JPRouve]

Being cold and distant towards your teammates isn't necessary because he's an introvert - but you're using that as an excuse for some bizarre reason to justify it. Could be many reasons for that behavior - I suspect it more to do with him being on 250k a week, can't get into United's 11 and not exactly lighting it up over there. Correctly predicted by Mourinho as i said - attitude does matter.

What exactly has he done? What exactly is the behavior you are talking about? Give me a practical example.

Keep in mind that Sevilla's director said that he seemed happy at Sevilla.

“I believe he was very happy and he thought it was a good opportunity for him [to join Sevilla on loan]. The injuries have been a problem for Martial. I believe he has enjoyed playing with us. I can imagine Anthony Martial has found that Sevilla would be a good club for him to have a new opportunity.”

 

[Roux]

What exactly has he done? What exactly is the behavior you are talking about? Give me a practical example.

Keep in mind that Sevilla's director said that he seemed happy at Sevilla.

I honestly just give up with you - i've justified it in my posts, just going in circles here is pointless. I trust the managers (Mourinho) opinion who actually managed him over your assumptions about him.

But you'll just find some way of making excuses for him again and again. He can do no wrong in your eyes.

 

[JPRouve]

I honestly just give up with you - i've justified it in my posts, just going in circles here is pointless. I trust the managers (Mourinho) opinion who actually managed him over your assumptions about him.

But you'll just find some way of making excuses for him again and again. He can do no wrong in your eyes.

I'm sorry but Mourinho isn't a reliable source. And beyond that the article about Mourinho talked about "perceived" sulkiness which isn't the same as actual sulkiness, the article referred to appearances which is in itself silly. And then Mourinho wasn't at Sevilla and Sevilla's director comments are different to what you suggests, now maybe he is lying for some reason.

 

[Roux]

I'm sorry but Mourinho isn't a reliable source. And beyond that the article about Mourinho talked about "perceived" sulkiness which isn't the same as actual sulkiness, the article referred to appearances which is in itself silly. And then Mourinho wasn't at Sevilla and Sevilla's director comments are different to what you suggests, now maybe he is lying for some reason.

He was his manager for god's sake! And tried to sell him based on the very reasons you are disputing!

I believe him and my own perceptions of him, you don't - let's just leave it at that.

 

[honirelandboy]

Quite possibly the laziest player I've ever seen in my life. I'm not sure how some people are defending him. This is article fully shows how bad his attitude is.
If anyone offers 20 million he should be sold. He is not Manchester quality with the attitude he has.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11667/11930854/manchester-united-forward-anthony-martial-still-struggling-to-fulfil-his-true-potential#:~:text=Martial was covering 9.1km,data is even more alarming.