[Raven]

Every now and then when people complain about the lack of goals, fans start comparing Martial to Firmino and talk about the Liverpool style. This is total nonsense. Firmino offers a lot more to the team with his (1) tireless off-the-ball movement dragging opponents away and creating spaces for teammates; and (2) frequent on-the-ball involvement in the game linking up play. Martial, on the contrary, is often a passenger and struggles to participate in the game. Goal tally is the only similarity between them.

Again, just take some time and look at our posession at 43rd minute against Leicester. Martial is straying and wandering at the halfway line throughout our attack, from our buildup at the back to the ball ending in the final third. It's not about body language or facial expression, he's actually missing from the game and this doesn't suit any style of football. Honestly I'm not a fan of Cavani, but he simply demonstrates how to play as a proper center forward with his limited time of the pitch.

You're such an intensely bad poster it's ridiculous. Martial has ALWAYS been a better finisher than Firmino and the only season Martial has played the same role, he outscored him very comfortably.

 

[Bebestation]

Every now and then when people complain about the lack of goals, fans start comparing Martial to Firmino and talk about the Liverpool style. This is total nonsense. Firmino offers a lot more to the team with his (1) tireless off-the-ball movement dragging opponents away and creating spaces for teammates; and (2) frequent on-the-ball involvement in the game linking up play. Martial, on the contrary, is often a passenger and struggles to participate in the game. Goal tally is the only similarity between them.

Again, just take some time and look at our posession at 43rd minute against Leicester. Martial is straying and wandering at the halfway line throughout our attack, from our buildup at the back to the ball ending in the final third. It's not about body language or facial expression, he's actually missing from the game and this doesn't suit any style of football. Honestly I'm not a fan of Cavani, but he simply demonstrates how to play as a proper center forward with his limited time of the pitch.

I'm personally giving up a bit on Martial but I disagree with this.

Rashford isnt good as Mane. Greenwood is not good as Salah.

The system is near identical; the 4231 instead of the 433 - with Martial being a player that drops deep and creates regularly for forwards around him.

Yet, I dont think a 4231 is the best way to get the most out of a false 9 personally - players like Rashford and Greenwood can 80% of the time find themselves way too wide on the pitch by the touchline waiting for the ball rather than making runs as inverted forwards in a 433 which tends to be the traditional false 9 formation because the wider forwards are able to cut in and take the central areas of the pitch.

There is reasons why Ole may feel like he cant use a 433 -
A) that Bruno needs to play in a 4231 as high up the pitch as possible; which then defeats the purposes a bit of a false 9.
B) We dont have a right CDM to play such a formation in the first place so have had to result in playing two hard working energetic box to box/pressing midfielders


For me Martial is similar to Firmino and his energy or his work rate doesnt change the ideal role he plays from a bit deeper away from the CB's. Messi wasnt running around like Fred whilst playing like a false 9 either. It's all about the positions he takes and the positions his team mates are able to take because of him.

 

[MikeKing]

This is all a longterm tactical plot so come end of the season all the other teams will underestimate him and he'll score a hat trick in the last 5 games of the season to win it for us.

 

[hmchan]

I'm personally giving up a bit on Martial but I disagree with this.

Rashford isnt good as Mane. Greenwood is not good as Salah.

The system is near identical; the 4231 instead of the 433 - with Martial being a player that drops deep and creates regularly for forwards around him.

Yet, I dont think a 4231 is the best way to get the most out of a false 9 personally - players like Rashford and Greenwood can 80% of the time find themselves way too wide on the pitch by the touchline waiting for the ball rather than making runs as inverted forwards in a 433 which tends to be the traditional false 9 formation because the wider forwards are able to cut in and take the central areas of the pitch.

There is reasons why Ole may feel like he cant use a 433 -
A) that Bruno needs to play in a 4231 as high up the pitch as possible; which then defeats the purposes a bit of a false 9.
B) We dont have a right CDM to play such a formation in the first place so have had to result in playing two hard working energetic box to box/pressing midfielders


For me Martial is similar to Firmino and his energy or his work rate doesnt change the ideal role he plays from a bit deeper away from the CB's. Messi wasnt running around like Fred whilst playing like a false 9 either. It's all about the positions he takes and the positions his team mates are able to take because of him.

And Martial isn't as good as Firmino. I still can't believe how you could still live in your fantasy (since last season), in which Martial is the center of everything playing false 9 despite his dreadful performance this season. We play 4-2-3-1 because we have a true, reliable creator delivering from game to game, and we are always doomed to fail if we try to build around a non-existent player who's straying and wandering most of the time. So yes, like it or not we are playing a completely different system from Liverpool. Stop the comparison, give up your fantasy and face to fact that Martial can't play as a proper center forward.

 

[Buster15]

Jamie Vardy is 33, the same age as Cavani, whereas Martial is 25. Vardy needs 99 minutes to score a goal. Martial needs 406. Vardy needs 2.64 shots to score. Martial needs 6.

Here’s the source of these stats
https://www.fctables.com/jamie_vardy-vs-anthony_martial-253500-208851/

I have never seen Vardy play a match where he didn’t run his socks off, like Tevez used to.

I have never seen a game where Martial did.

One is the type of number 9 we need, one isn’t. I know the one I’d pick and he’s not French.

Very interesting.
The question I ask about Martial is which other PL side would want him.
In my view, none of the top half.
He drops his head far too quickly and goes missing.
Plenty of talent.
But far too little mental toughness.

 

[Holocene]

Very interesting.
The question I ask about Martial is which other PL side would want him.
In my view, none of the top half.
He drops his head far too quickly and goes missing.
Plenty of talent.
But far too little mental toughness.

Come off it. You're saying Villa, Saints, West Ham and Leicester wouldn't want Martial? That's even before considering him as a rotation option for the better teams.

 

[Buster15]

Come off it. You're saying Villa, Saints, West Ham and Leicester wouldn't want Martial? That's even before considering him as a rotation option for the better teams.

That is exactly what I am saying. And for the very reasons I have given.
Not good enough.

 

[Raven]

Very interesting.
The question I ask about Martial is which other PL side would want him.
In my view, none of the top half.
He drops his head far too quickly and goes missing.
Plenty of talent.
But far too little mental toughness.

Pretty much every team in the league would have a serious look if he was available. Up to and including Man City and Liverpool. After the season he had last season added to his obvious physical and technical skills, it would be ridiculous to think otherwise.

Luckily, he doesn't want to go and we don't want him to leave.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

Most of those teams play players in his positions who are obviously not as talented and also don't score as much as he does, barring this season (which isn't even half over yet).

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Wow, I’d never realised just how passionate Raven is about Tony.

Liverpool wouldn’t go fecking near him, nor a Guardiola side, nor a Mourinho side, don’t kid yourself.

 

[Raven]

Wow, I’d never realised just how passionate Revan is about Tony.

Liverpool wouldn’t go fecking near him, nor a Guardiola side, nor a Mourinho side, don’t kid yourself.

He's literally a better version of Firmino and he's better than Jesus. If he was available to either team, they would definitely be taking a very hard look.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He's literally a better version of Firmino

I don’t even know what to say to that.

Neither side would take a “hard look” at him, he doesn’t fit their profile at all.

 

[vanrooney]

martial in form is a very important player for us and would be for any team. its not all about assists or goals. martial is very good player in transitional phases - he can link up the play and is technically top. and when on form he is deadly in front of goal. he will be good for 25-30 goals a season minimum in the future imo.

 

[Plymouth Red]

Pretty much every team in the league would have a serious look if he was available. Up to and including Man City and Liverpool. After the season he had last season added to his obvious physical and technical skills, it would be ridiculous to think otherwise.

Luckily, he doesn't want to go and we don't want him to leave.

You say he doesn’t want to go, but do you think he looks like a player who really wants to wear our jersey? i don’t see true commitment and effort from him, unlike McT or Bruno or Williams or Fred.

Instead, with Martial, I see moodiness, petulance and a weak mentality when things go against him. These aren’t acceptable traits in a top professional and SAF wouldn’t have tolerated them.

More concerning after how long they’ve played together, I don’t see any on pitch chemistry between him and Rashford that makes me confident they will become this generation’s Cole and Yorke. This is a failure in both of them, but Martial as number 9 should be driving this with Rashford.

 

[Sayros]

Every time you have some who say he's not good enough and Martial comes out and proves them wrong. Just a matter of time until he shows exactly why he's here and what is it that he does for this team. United without Martial were and have been dire. Last season's change of fortune came with Bruno's arrival, but also with Martial's return. United without Martial is dreadful to watch and it's a mess of a team when they're out there on the pitch, he makes a huge difference to getting the most out of Rashford.

Now if a proper CF, like Haaland came, then Martial would have to make way and compete for either the CF or LW because he's not a true CF, but he brings a lot to this team that people conveniently forget as soon as he's not hitting form.

 

[VP89]

Every time you have some who say he's not good enough and Martial comes out and proves them wrong. Just a matter of time until he shows exactly why he's here and what is it that he does for this team. United without Martial were and have been dire. Last season's change of fortune came with Bruno's arrival, but also with Martial's return. United without Martial is dreadful to watch and it's a mess of a team when they're out there on the pitch, he makes a huge difference to getting the most out of Rashford.

Now if a proper CF, like Haaland came, then Martial would have to make way and compete for either the CF or LW because he's not a true CF, but he brings a lot to this team that people conveniently forget as soon as he's not hitting form.

People aren't trying to suggest he brings nothing to the team. They are suggesting he's not the complete CF we expect to lead the line at United.

In your own post you appear to complain about people suggesting he's not good enough, and then go on to entertain incoming a striker like Haaland knowing he's more of the calibre we require, even going so far as to say he's a "proper CF".

 

[KennyBurner]

People aren't trying to suggest he brings nothing to the team. They are suggesting he's not the complete CF we expect to lead the line at United.

In your own post you appear to complain about people suggesting he's not good enough, and then go on to entertain incoming a striker like Haaland knowing he's more of the calibre we require, even going so far as to say he's a "proper CF".

Our whole frontline by that measure is definitely not good enough then. If haaland is the bar that is.

 

[Harry190]

Hopefully, his 1 in 5 good performance comes in against Wolves. One where he scores a brace.

 

[VP89]

Our whole frontline by that measure is definitely not good enough then. If haaland is the bar that is.

I would argue Rashford is a perfectly apt left forward, and Bruno is a perfectly apt 10. We need a right winger, that is obvious. And yes, I don't think Martial is quite the complete CF that we require at Manchester United.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Every time you have some who say he's not good enough and Martial comes out and proves them wrong. Just a matter of time until he shows exactly why he's here and what is it that he does for this team. United without Martial were and have been dire. Last season's change of fortune came with Bruno's arrival, but also with Martial's return. United without Martial is dreadful to watch and it's a mess of a team when they're out there on the pitch, he makes a huge difference to getting the most out of Rashford.

Now if a proper CF, like Haaland came, then Martial would have to make way and compete for either the CF or LW because he's not a true CF, but he brings a lot to this team that people conveniently forget as soon as he's not hitting form.

VP has already pulled you up here but it’s pretty impressive to read a post criticising posters for not thinking a player is good enough long term as United’s number 9, only to then himself admit later in that same post that if a proper number 9 came in, he’d have to make way because he’s not a true CF.

Has to be a wind up surely?

Of course Martial will hit one of his good spells soon, is anyone doubting that?

 

[Mr Smith]

He's literally a better version of Firmino and he's better than Jesus. If he was available to either team, they would definitely be taking a very hard look.

Better than Firmino is a stretch; he might be a better finisher (though he's not showing it at the moment), and a better dribbler, but he's certainly not better at playing the false nine role or off the ball work rate and movement. Definitely better than Jesus, I'll grant you that.

Ultimately, my issue with Martial is how frustratingly fragile his confidence is. When his tail is up, he's our best player, but when he's off form he loses all his sharpness in front of goal. Personally I think he his general play has been quite good this season, especially in recent games where he's found pockets of space and picked out teammates excellently. But he's bereft of confidence in front of goal, and the problem is that benching him almost makes his confidence worse; you have to keep playing him and hope he gets through it, but that can take another 5-10 games and cost us points.

I like Martial a lot and have defended him a lot, but I'm worried that at 25, what we've got is as good as it's going to get. Good enough for a team challenging for the top four, but probably not good enough for a team that wants to win the league...

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

He's literally a better version of Firmino and he's better than Jesus. If he was available to either team, they would definitely be taking a very hard look.

Last season, Martial is better but this season he’s not.

Because Firmino has work rate and likes to press. So even if you take away both players end product, Firmino offers much more when he’s not on the ball. This is the issue about martial this season, if he’s not going to score enough goals or assists, at least try to put more work rate to press and show more movement. Try to get yourself involve more to help the team.

 

[Dante]

It's not much to say that Martial at his best is better than Firmino at his worst.

But if you're comparing like with like, ie. their respective bottom levels, average levels, top levels, overall careers, etc. then Firmino betters Martial in almost every metric. Martial might sneak it when they're both at their very best, but he doesn't get there very often.

 

[ali8karimi]

Have him on the back of my shirt but i admit he is out of his depth. Feel sorry for him at the moment but Cavani deserves the starting spot.
awful workrate, should be ashamed to see a 33 years old player press ten times more than him (and finish half chances).

Had an awful night missing 2/3 sitters in november against Portugal with France NT and i'm pretty sure it has affected his mind.

 

[Winrar]

It really feels like Martial has only gone sideways, maybe even regressed ever since he joined us considering he was one of the top talents in Europe at the time of his arrival to United. Has had multiple opportunities to shine but is proving to be inconsistent time and time again, and his work rate has a lot to be left desired.

Not too late to turn things around, however. And I hope he does sooner rather than later, if at all.

 

[poleglass red]

It really feels like Martial has only gone sideways, maybe even regressed ever since he joined us considering he was one of the top talents in Europe at the time of his arrival to United. Has had multiple opportunities to shine but is proving to be inconsistent time and time again, and his work rate has a lot to be left desired.

Not too late to turn things around, however. And I hope he does sooner rather than later, if at all.

He's still only 25, so maybe in next 4-5 years he finally lives up to his potential n then we cash in on him at 31.

 

[tenpoless]

He's literally a better version of Firmino and he's better than Jesus. If he was available to either team, they would definitely be taking a very hard look.

Don't say that during Christmas.

 

[hmchan]

It's not much to say that Martial at his best is better than Firmino at his worst.

But if you're comparing like with like, ie. their respective bottom levels, average levels, top levels, overall careers, etc. then Firmino betters Martial in almost every metric. Martial might sneak it when they're both at their very best, but he doesn't get there very often.

This is why the debate will never end. Those supporting Martial keep mentioning what he could offer "when he's in form", while the rest of us care more about his average level.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Lazy player that offers nothing when we are not in possession and then could do so much more when we are.
Bags of talent in him though so makes it quite frustrating to look at him. Just have to persevere until a suitable replacement can be found and hope his patchy good performance streak comes in early January

 

[Dante]

This is why the debate will never end. Those supporting Martial keep mentioning what he could offer "when he's in form", while the rest of us care more about his average level.

I support Martial.

 

[Buster15]

Pretty much every team in the league would have a serious look if he was available. Up to and including Man City and Liverpool. After the season he had last season added to his obvious physical and technical skills, it would be ridiculous to think otherwise.

Luckily, he doesn't want to go and we don't want him to leave.

I am not critical of his skills. But I am highly critical of his attitude, character and willingness to graft.
And as to your 'ridiculous' comment, I will leave that one with you.

 

[ghaliboy]

Up to and including Man City and Liverpool.

Doubt.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Does no one notice that he spends lots of time filling in for Bruno? he fills the space Bruno vacates and because of this in recent games has created numerous chances for others. Yet you have people who can’t see these contributions and cry wildly about him being lazy and not scoring goals.

They need to open their eyes and look at the contributions he is bringing to the team.

 

[dinostar77]

Interesting discussion. MOTD analysis, talksport (during commentary of Leicester v Utd) highlighted Martial's shortcomings especially when he can be compared to a proven elite centre forward like Cavani. Only Martial can decide if he wants to put in the hard work on the training ground to learn from Cavani. If he doesnt then move him on.

We are a better team with Cavani upfront than Martial. Cavani offers much more at present.

Tbf, Rashford has improvement to make as well but as MOTD anaylsis said you can see him adding to his game i.e. throughballs and his finishing had been improving. I just haven't seen that improvement in Martial yet.

 

[Red00012]

He’s far too casual possibly lazy for my liking. That Leeds game still annoys me that he didn’t come off the field with a goal.

 

[sokol11]

Does no one notice that he spends lots of time filling in for Bruno? he fills the space Bruno vacates and because of this in recent games has created numerous chances for others. Yet you have people who can’t see these contributions and cry wildly about him being lazy and not scoring goals.

They need to open their eyes and look at the contributions he is bringing to the team.

Yes we saw the fantastic disappearing act performance he did vs Leicester.

 

[DRM]

I don't know what's happened to him but his finishing is woeful now. He missed so many easy chances v Sheffield and Leeds. This is going back to the end of last season too. His misses cost us a place in the Europa League final.

Whatever way you look at it, 1 goal in 10 PL games for a leading striker at Man Utd is atrocious! I think he has to be dropped for Cavani now. Long term, whilst he has talent I think we need an upgrade and we should be looking at better strikers in the summer.

 

[Jonno]

Really poor form, I expect Cavani to start

 

[berbatrick]

I thought he had a bright first half (when we struggled to hold the ball, he was the only consistent outlet, and played well back to goal). Faded second after Pogba came on.

Was the goal offside? The replays I saw were very inconclusive.

 

[arthurka]

Why is this still up for debate, he is turning into the new Lingard. Still young and has potential. Having potential is used for players who aren't good enough. He is 25 years old and still looks the same as he did at 18 he won't change accept it and move on