[Eugenius]

And a big part of that was the way we set out. Last year we were countering teams for fun, and our direct quick turnover suited him. If you note many games this year, teams are smarter to it and tend to be cautious on overloading in attacks, even the top clubs like City, Chelsea, Liverpool adapted to us this season. They were a lot more cautious, as were the rest of the teams in the league. As such this requires the facets which Martial is weak on to come to life more, i.e. movement in that 12 yard box, runs in behind, areal presence. Cavani has shown what we were lacking all these years, at least since Zlatan was here for a cameo season. In my opinion only a striker of similar ilk will be capable of sustaining our threats against cautious teams.

For me, Kane/Haaland/Cavani performances this season together with Lewa's brilliance of course shows the traditional 9 is far from dead as a position. A "proper" striker if you will, is what we need. Martial I think can add a lot of value for us from the left hand side, but not consistetnly enough up top.

He's not a Cavani for sure (Martial wants to link play more), but he was definitely scoring more scruffy CF goals last year. I remember for example a couple of classic Cavani style near post headers getting across his man against Chelsea away and Villa at home (both from AWB crosses). And a couple of poacher tap ins in his Sheffield United hattrick and against Chelsea on the opening game of last season.

For me a fit and firing Martial would only be justified being benched for a proper top class #9. That said he's been truly awful this season, but it's the classic Caf revisionism of 'he's always been shite' (the same people who are shocked that Lingard is showing some good form) that is really annoying. Even this season his issue hasn't been getting into good positions, it's that his finishing has been terrible.

 

[crossy1686]

You don't know this?

He's on more than Rashford, that's been confirmed by journalists who are close to the club. He's done no where near enough to justify that salary except for a purple patch at the backend of last season.

Next year is a career defining season for Martial. It's hard to justify his salary and place at the club when all he offers is some decent link up play.

 

[eire-red]

Will be good to have him back available if he's fit soon. Problem is, I don't think Martial is the type of player that will accept being a squad player.

It's a funny one for Ole. Martial is streaky, and constantly seems to need to play himself into form. I don't see how that works if he's a fringe player.

On the other hand, if you cash in you know you're letting such a talent go. I know people point to him having a bad season and all that, but it's not just the goals and assists, it's everything. The fight just didn't seem to be there at all this season, and that's a worry.

I think Ole will give him another season to prove himself, but if he doesn't replicate his form from the 19/20 season, I think we'll sell. Problem is, who's available that's better?

 

[VP89]

What exactly is 250k worth of appearances? And why is it relevant? 250k for us vs 250k for West Ham vs 250k for Villa all hold very different values - which is exactly why I said that no source ever breaks down how much our players earn when broken down. The reason being that most of our players are very marketable and this is often baked into their contract, also they have things like Cup bonuses, European bonuses, Goal bonuses etc - so that '250k' sum is often the sum if Martial (or any player) were to hit every single bonus on a consistent basis.
Nobody has any idea how much our players actually earn, we only have an idea of the potential they could earn.

I'll boil it down - he's in our top 3 earners and he's far from our top 3 best performers.

Overall he gets a Goal or Assist every 2 games & he's spent this season & last season as the sole CF. His stats are incredibly similar to Rashford actually, both in appearances and G&A contributions. But Martial gets derided instead, and I would guess it's because his body language is comparatively languid. Pogba suffers from this too.

It's not all about stats, which is why you'll find me also concerned of the general standard of Rashford's performances too this season by way of failing in consistency of general play. I think that's down to him playing through injury but regardless, that's why I said we will struggle if both are on the pitch in a front 3.

Even if we were to look at stats, Martial season in 36 appearances (all comps) he has 15 goals or assists. So it's a bit more than that & if you consider his PL form only and take out the easier cup opponents, it's actually only 4 goals and 5 assists in 22 appearances. But I don't like focusing just on stats here, my point is for his wages he should be a starter, and when he returns he would struggle to break into the XI.

Your Pogba point is a bit odd , statistically he hasn't been blazing on goals/assists but there is a clear difference in how he's been since Leipzig to now compared to how he'd let many games drift by before. That's why I say, it's not just about stats.
Rashford can be frustrating as feck on general performances, but we still see him make sprints in behind, move around his zone and on his toes a lot more than Martial is. So I can forgive selfish dribbles, poor passes or touches a bit more when I can see the off the ball movement and drive is there. Martial is a player that shows this in bursts and then for long patches goes within himself.

Do you not see that in that source it says he will earn a base salary of £13m, with a cap of £13m as well? So he agreed to sign no image rights, no goal bonuses etc? This is precisely what I was saying before.

Yes, I see that. Maguire has the same cap, Rashford has the same cap, DDG has the same cap, Shaw has the same cap.

I don't have a better source because I know that football contracts are incredibly complex, having had the misfortune of having to work on a few myself - I wouldn't trust anything posted by a the media unless either an agent or club's legal representative are the ones to report it or are cited. You can choose to believe it if you want to, i'm not here to convince you otherwise.

This is not a media twist. It's not some sensationalist conspiracy to say Martial is among our top earners sitting in the top 3-4 if not higher. If you are able to accept this, then whilst granting he has struggled with consistency in the United shirt coupled with some bad injury runs and terrible performances this year, you might understand it's not disrespectful to entertain an idea cashing in.

As for 'worth' that's a similar phrase to value. Do I think any human being is 'worth' getting paid more than 100k a week? No. If I were to think about things with the inclusion of economics & ability? Is he 'worth' that to Manchester United as a corporation? Yes, he's one of the most popular players & he's one of the biggest contributors to our output & success.

Wages are relative. I can think of at least 5 other players I'd pay more than Martial in his own team. So that's how I gauge value and him being overvalued.[/QUOTE]

If you were to sell Martial who would we get and for how much? Who is going to guarantee a G/A in at least 1/2 games (or better) - at that point you're looking at the Sancho's, the Grealish's, who don't come cheaper than £75m, and will still be paid a similar amount per week. The other options are to try and find a 'cheap' replacement (will still cost 30m+), with no guarantees that they will come in and offer the same contribution that Martial does. (look at Donny for example)

God knows, who we would be nailed on to get, but I like Raphina and Laurtado (the latter being very possible on a good deal given Inter's financial issues).

Also, I wouldn't put Martial up for sale in the shop window openly trying to flog him. I'm saying I'd listen to club interests. If PSG came in and offered 50m, I'd accept. And I'd reinvest and get Raphina who is a better option being a natural winger. Or I'd look at Laurtado Martinez who brings more to the general play than just goals and assists. Martial is a player best on the wing, who wants to be a striker, which he isn't really capable of being for us. That rarely ends well.

 

[crossy1686]

I don't understand the vehement defence of Martial anymore. You put him up against the great forwards we've had at the club under Fergie and he's no where near any of them, in fact, you put him up against the B side striker we've had at the club and is he better than Saha, Hernandez, Owen, or even Forlan? Is there anyone here that wouldn't swap him for a prime Diego Forlan?

There's a huge recency bias regarding Martial because we've not had a consistent world class forward since Van Persie. Hopefully Cavani has made people realise what a real CF looks like.

 

[lenny_1248]

I don't understand the vehement defence of Martial anymore. You put him up against the great forwards we've had at the club under Fergie and he's no where near any of them, in fact, you put him up against the B side striker we've had at the club and is he better than Saha, Hernandez, Owen, or even Forlan? Is there anyone here that wouldn't swap him for a prime Diego Forlan?

Am I missing smth, cause I think United had a washed Michael Owen, not a prime Michael Owen. The same with Forlan. It was not a prime Diego Forlan from Atletico M. So, it is just pointless to suggest that.

 

[villain]

I'll boil it down - he's in our top 3 earners and he's far from our top 3 best performers.

That will change at the next round of contract extensions - like I said, it's a redundant point. Pogba will become our top earner if he signs in the summer. Bruno & Rashford will likely get a bump in the next 2 years. Sancho if we sign him will be paid similarly at 250k+

It's not all about stats, which is why you'll find me also concerned of the general standard of Rashford's performances too this season by way of failing in consistency of general play. I think that's down to him playing through injury but regardless, that's why I said we will struggle if both are on the pitch in a front 3.

Even if we were to look at stats, Martial season in 36 appearances (all comps) he has 15 goals or assists. So it's a bit more than that & if you consider his PL form only and take out the easier cup opponents, it's actually only 4 goals and 5 assists in 22 appearances. But I don't like focusing just on stats here, my point is for his wages he should be a starter, and when he returns he would struggle to break into the XI.

Your Pogba point is a bit odd , statistically he hasn't been blazing on goals/assists but there is a clear difference in how he's been since Leipzig to now compared to how he'd let many games drift by before. That's why I say, it's not just about stats.

I agree it's not just about stats, and I think Martial's link-up play, dribbling ability and control in tight spaces is among the best in the squad. Him returning from injury strengthens us and offers a different option to our style of play. Like I said previously, almost everyone in the squad was struggling for consistency and form, we looked devoid of attacking ideas and we were scraping through a lot of matches. I think thats the hang-over from the shortened 'pre-season' we were given due to covid - but either way we're agreed that he's having a comparatively bad season this season. I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing that he's not good enough to be in our squad and we should sell him.

My point about Pogba was that his body language gets used as a criticism against him, as though he doesn't care or isn't passionate. Martial suffers the same fate. But that's just an opinion of mine.

This is not a media twist. It's not some sensationalist conspiracy to say Martial is among our top earners sitting in the top 3-4 if not higher. If you are able to accept this, then whilst granting he has struggled with consistency in the United shirt coupled with some bad injury runs and terrible performances this year, you might understand it's not disrespectful to entertain an idea cashing in.

I'm not saying it's a media twist, i'm saying that every given week Martial could earn 180k, 200k, 220k - he could go months without earning 250k because nobody knows how his contract is broken down. So being caught up on him earning 250k is redundant. Nobody knows for a fact how much he earns week-to-week we just have an idea of his potential earnings, and considering he is putting up similar numbers to Rashford, him getting paid a similar amount to Rashford makes sense to me. Unless i'm missing something?

Wages are relative. I can think of at least 5 other players I'd pay more than Martial in his own team. So that's how I gauge value and him being overvalued.

That's your opinion which you're entitled to of course.

God knows, I wouldn't put him up for sale. I'm saying I'd listen to club interests. If PSG came in and offered 50m, I'd accept. And I'd reinvest and get Raphina who is a better option being a natural winger. Or I'd look at Laurtado Martinez who brings more to the general play than just goals and assists. Martial is a player best on the wing, who wants to be a striker, which he isn't really capable of being for us. That rarely ends well.

Raphina plays on the right, right? So would be in contention with Sancho (if we get him), Amad & Greenwood primarily - plus I doubt Leeds would sell him for cheaper than £40m considering they signed him less than a year ago. If we weren't to get Sancho I think he's a good option, but I don't see him as a replacement to Martial if we were to sell him. Martinez wouldn't be cheaper than £60m and he's a striker? So wouldn't be useful for us next season and could get in the way of Greenwood's potential too.
Martial is a player who can occupy two positions, his best season for us was at CF, and his second best season was at LW - that's a great thing to have in a squad.

It seems like your main issue is that you just dont want us to pay him 250k, I don't think you can deny the quality in providing G/A contributions every other game, you just care about his salary.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Next season, Ole will be under tremendous pressure to either deliver PL/CL or challenge for them all the way, he will need to make a decision on Martial, whether he should me retained and shown some patience or to be moved on.

For Martial, this season is a write off for him, next season though it will be a do or die, whether he starts all games or he is made a squad option, he must show why he should be kept in the team, Cavani has now signed a new deal and will be most likely the preferred option for the striker role, but Cavani is not young and won't play every game so most likely Martial will get plenty of game time assuming he is second to Cavani in the team sheet for the striker position.

I always had full faith in him but this season I lost that faith and I guess alot of fans did lose faith in him, maybe Ole still has faith in him but he needs to really show something else, alot more resilience and determination, alot more in terms of movement in the box and anticipation of half chances, alot more of workrate as Cavani does, the team will need him to be at his best to compete with City next season

 

[VP89]

That will change at the next round of contract extensions - like I said, it's a redundant point. Pogba will become our top earner if he signs in the summer. Bruno & Rashford will likely get a bump in the next 2 years. Sancho if we sign him will be paid similarly at 250k+

Sure, and they'd have justified it. It goes back to my point about how I never thought Martial justified that wage, and he still doesn't.

I agree it's not just about stats, and I think Martial's link-up play, dribbling ability and control in tight spaces is among the best in the squad. Him returning from injury strengthens us and offers a different option to our style of play. Like I said previously, almost everyone in the squad was struggling for consistency and form, we looked devoid of attacking ideas and we were scraping through a lot of matches. I think thats the hang-over from the shortened 'pre-season' we were given due to covid - but either way we're agreed that he's having a comparatively bad season this season. I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing that he's not good enough to be in our squad and we should sell him.

My point about Pogba was that his body language gets used as a criticism against him, as though he doesn't care or isn't passionate. Martial suffers the same fate. But that's just an opinion of mine.

I wasn't critcizing Marital for body language. Being flat footed in playing style isn't body language, and the same goes for failing to make runs in behind the defence, generally being alive in the 12 yard box, etc. I appreciate and agree with your advantages that Martial brings, but I think as a striker the weaknesses in his game are too glaring for our club, unless he can massively improve on them.

Raphina plays on the right, right? So would be in contention with Sancho (if we get him), Amad & Greenwood primarily - plus I doubt Leeds would sell him for cheaper than £40m considering they signed him less than a year ago. If we weren't to get Sancho I think he's a good option, but I don't see him as a replacement to Martial if we were to sell him. Martinez wouldn't be cheaper than £60m and he's a striker? So wouldn't be useful for us next season and could get in the way of Greenwood's potential too.
Martial is a player who can occupy two positions, his best season for us was at CF, and his second best season was at LW - that's a great thing to have in a squad.

It seems like your main issue is that you just dont want us to pay him 250k, I don't think you can deny the quality in providing G/A contributions every other game, you just care about his salary.

Raphina can play either, I see him pop up on the left flank often for Leeds, he got a good assist for them vs Spurs from that position on the weekend. Also I don't think Martinez would be that much because Inter's situation is dire. I think they have asked for their players to forego 2 months wages

 

[crossy1686]

Am I missing smth, cause I think United had a washed Michael Owen, not a prime Michael Owen. The same with Forlan. It was not a prime Diego Forlan from Atletico M. So, it is just pointless to suggest that.

They were still both more effective and scored goals when it mattered, as opposed to Martial who would have been benched by the pair if playing in the same team as them.

 

[Red Royal]

Am I missing smth, cause I think United had a washed Michael Owen, not a prime Michael Owen. The same with Forlan. It was not a prime Diego Forlan from Atletico M. So, it is just pointless to suggest that.

Forlan was about 23 years old when he signed. He never did make it but not cos he was washed up.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Next season, Ole will be under tremendous pressure to either deliver PL/CL or challenge for them all the way, he will need to make a decision on Martial, whether he should me retained and shown some patience or to be moved on.

For Martial, this season is a write off for him, next season though it will be a do or die, whether he starts all games or he is made a squad option, he must show why he should be kept in the team, Cavani has now signed a new deal and will be most likely the preferred option for the striker role, but Cavani is not young and won't play every game so most likely Martial will get plenty of game time assuming he is second to Cavani in the team sheet for the striker position.

I always had full faith in him but this season I lost that faith and I guess alot of fans did lose faith in him, maybe Ole still has faith in him but he needs to really show something else, alot more resilience and determination, alot more in terms of movement in the box and anticipation of half chances, alot more of workrate as Cavani does, the team will need him to be at his best to compete with City next season

With Woodward going out, I am hoping that Ole will not be under pressure to somehow accommodate Martial. Ole has done pretty well with handling of players. So I kinda believe him to have a good look at Martial and decide if he has the right attitude to work with the team or cut him off.

From a personal point of view, I think Martial should be sold. I have seen enough and I don't think he has the right attitude. His form/mood wavers, depending on several outside factors. Which makes all the talent he has, moot.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

His contract is justified because he's a worthy contributor to our squad, and has been for his entire career with us - so yes it is disrespectful because throughout our transition from being terrible, to average, to now quite good - he's managed to remain consistent.
This year has been bad but not terrible, most of our players were struggling earlier in the season, and as the squad has gotten better, he's unfortunately been injured so hasn't benefitted from it. Our fans have such short memories.

Im sorry but he has been utterly dire this season.

 

[villain]

Sure, and they'd have justified it. It goes back to my point about how I never thought Martial justified that wage, and he still doesn't.

How could Rashford justify it, if he's contributing similarly to Martial? What's the difference?

I wasn't critcizing Marital for body language. Being flat footed in playing style isn't body language, and the same goes for failing to make runs in behind the defence, generally being alive in the 12 yard box, etc. I appreciate and agree with your advantages that Martial brings, but I think as a striker the weaknesses in his game are too glaring for our club, unless he can massively improve on them.

I think he's inexperienced as a striker, he's spent 3/4 seasons a winger with us and only last season & this season as a striker - of course it's not going to come naturally straight away. I have faith that next season he will be back to his best.
If Martial were in the squad while we're on this form, nothing in my mind says that he would continue to struggle to score goals, but if he did struggle then yes I would agree that he needs to be sold. I just don't think we need to get the knives out when a run of bad form coincides with the team's bad form too.

The prospect of having the option to play Rashford at LW/RW/ST, Sancho at LW/RW, Greenwood at RW/ST, Martial at LW/ST, Amad at LW/RW, Cavani up top, and even Pogba as a Left sided playmaker depending on the opponent is the type of squad depth we need to aspire towards.

Raphina can play either, I see him pop up on the left flank often for Leeds, he got a good assist for them vs Spurs from that position on the weekend. Also I don't think Martinez would be that much because Inter's situation is dire. I think they have asked for their players to forego 2 months wages

Serie A club finances in shambles shocker, not surprised by that at all

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

If Martial were in the squad while we're on this form, nothing in my mind says that he would continue to struggle to score goals,

Are we not in good form because we have his direct replacement in Cavani smashing in the goals?

 

[villain]

Are we not in good form because we have his direct replacement in Cavani smashing in the goals?

We're in good form because we're creating a lot of chances and carving teams up more frequently, which allows the likes of Cavani to score more goals, yes.
We weren't doing that early in the season - Cavani was also struggling then, if you'll remember.

 

[VP89]

How could Rashford justify it, if he's contributing similarly to Martial? What's the difference?

He contributes more, as I had touched upon in the previously. He's maintained consistency for 2 seasons back to back now from sheer numbers but he's more often than not trying to take players on, often making darting sprints in behind and we know his role in the team. He's very much our left sided forward or a second striker. Martial is of similar ilk, has a clear preference to be the 9 and lacks the movement, areal presence, driving runs to do so. And this brings me to my point re. Martial and Rashford being very similar by way of inconsistency in general play across a front 3 may be harmful. Balance in the attack is important and them 2 + Greenwood have bags of talent, yet all 3 still look very raw which isn't a good signal for consistency.

I think he's inexperienced as a striker, he's spent 3/4 seasons a winger with us and only last season & this season as a striker - of course it's not going to come naturally straight away. I have faith that next season he will be back to his best.
If Martial were in the squad while we're on this form, nothing in my mind says that he would continue to struggle to score goals, but if he did struggle then yes I would agree that he needs to be sold. I just don't think we need to get the knives out when a run of bad form coincides with the team's bad form too.

You can see his movement is just terrible though. I don't need a longer experiment of him as a 9 to know that he's not cut out for it. It's not just me saying this, everyone in world football pretty much points to it, be it Gary Neville or Charrager as "premium" pundits or the cheap ones like Shearer & Wright (although they are ex strikers so their view is credible too) - United need a proper 9. And it's not Martial. I don't often like to point to single name pundits to provide credence to a point, but just saying this view is pretty unanimous. So if we can agree Martial is not a long term 9 for us, then you start questioning where he fits in.

The prospect of having the option to play Rashford at LW/RW/ST, Sancho at LW/RW, Greenwood at RW/ST, Martial at LW/ST, Amad at LW/RW, Cavani up top, and even Pogba as a Left sided playmaker depending on the opponent is the type of squad depth we need to aspire towards.

And yet, if you just took Martial out of that list it doesn't look like we are lacking much by way of quality in depth. Which is why I wouldn't mind cashing in and pursuing a Raphina or Laurtado. Or even reinvesting that toward a superb CB.

 

[lenny_1248]

Forlan was about 23 years old when he signed. He never did make it but not cos he was washed up.

I was talking about the fact that Diego Forlan that played for the club was not the same Forlan that was a beast at Atletico later in his career.

They were still both more effective and scored goals when it mattered, as opposed to Martial who would have been benched by the pair if playing in the same team as them.

So you are saying that Michael Owen who played for United is a better player than Martial?
You are talking absolute bollocks. Honestly, the hate on Martial here is ridiculous.
"If he plays the same next season then Ole should sell him" I get that narrative, fair enough.
BUT for fecks sake he only just had his best season for the club scoring 17 non-penalty goals in Premier League. Scoring winning goals against City (twice), Chelsea. He scored a winner in the semi-final against Everton in the FA cup in his first season. Yet he does not score when it matters. And old, washed Michael Owen would bench him.

Idiotic comments like this irritate me.

 

[snk123]

Hehe. You know Pogba was playing for us before he got injured too?

Hehe. It's funny when you have a poster who was so hell bent on favoring Berbatov over Tevez lecturing you about a supposedly lazy player in Martial. Time will prove you wrong again Pogue - like always

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

We're in good form because we're creating a lot of chances and carving teams up more frequently, which allows the likes of Cavani to score more goals, yes.
We weren't doing that early in the season - Cavani was also struggling then, if you'll remember.

there’s a correlation to Cavani playing well and us playing well. we have seen how a ‘proper’ no 9 had add so much to the team.

I don’t have any confidence that Martial would be scoring in this team given his appalling form throughout this season.

 

[villain]

He contributes more, as eluded in the previous posts. He's maintained consistency for 2 seasons back to back now from sheer numbers but he's more often than not trying to take players on, often making darting sprints in behind and we know his role in the team. He's very much our left sided forward or a second striker. Martial is of similar ilk, has a clear preference to be the 9 and lacks the movement, areal presence, driving runs to do so.

You can see his movement is just terrible though. I don't need a longer experiment of him as a 9 to know that he's not cut out for it. It's not just me saying this, everyone in world football pretty much points to it, be it Gary Neville or Charagger as "premium" pundits or the cheap ones like Shearer & Wright (although they are ex strikers so their view is credible too) - United need a proper 9. And it's not Martial.

Again that's subjective, is his movement as good as Cavani's? No. Very few strikers are. He's a different style, he plays back to goal, prefers passes to feet where he can run in behind. He struggled to do that early in the season because we struggled against the low-block, Bruno was getting double marked and we had no idea how to string two forward passes together. But he shined last season playing exactly that way, interchangeably with Rashford and at times Greenwood - there's nothing to suggest that he's suddenly lost that ability because he's had a season.

I would also argue that Rashford has equally frustrated fans for prolonged periods of time over multiple seasons. Personally the criticism that he & Martial get is OTT imo, but it's to be expected from our fans at this point. I don't doubt that Greenwood or Amad will suffer the same fate if they go through similar dips in form.

And yet, if you just took Martial out of that list it doesn't look like we are lacking much by way of quality in depth. Which is why I wouldn't mind cashing in and pursuing a Raphina or Laurtado. Or even reinvesting that toward a superb CB.

Well considering we haven't signed Sancho yet, Pogba hasn't signed an extension yet, and Amad is yet to be proven in the PL - selling Martial isn't going to happen this summer. And if he's given a run of games in an in-form team he will continue to get back to his consistent output - but there's no point talking in hypothetical situations, it's best to wait and see. I'm excited to see him playing for us again soon.
This was one of the better debates on the football forum I felt, we can agree to disagree, I think further discussion will just lead to us talking in circles.

Also I'd say we need a CDM more than a CB, but both would be preferred. We won't be selling Martial to fund it though

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Hehe. It's funny when you have a poster who was so hell bent on favoring Berbatov over Tevez lecturing you about a supposedly lazy player in Martial. Time will prove you wrong again Pogue - like always

Where did I mention lazy? Martial’s biggest problem this season has been because he’s been shit, not lazy.

 

[snk123]

We're in good form because we're creating a lot of chances and carving teams up more frequently, which allows the likes of Cavani to score more goals, yes.
We weren't doing that early in the season - Cavani was also struggling then, if you'll remember.

People here have a freakishly short memory. Maybe need to quote posts of earlier this season. Rashford, Greenwood and Cavani were struggling to score goals - until Pogba came back and slotted in on the left hand side. Also, Bruno regained his form. Teams do have bad patches - we were playing poorly collectively and now are playing much, much better.

 

[snk123]

Where did I mention lazy? Martial’s biggest problem this season has been because he’s been shit, not lazy.

Yeah and based on one poor season - he doesn't deserve to be sold or hated on like he is over here. He's been very good for us over the last 5 years - and was excellent just last season.

 

[villain]

there’s a correlation to Cavani playing well and us playing well. we have seen how a ‘proper’ no 9 had add so much to the team.

I don’t have any confidence that Martial would be scoring in this team given his appalling form throughout this season.

There's a correlation to us playing well by getting the most out of Pogba and Bruno at the same time, and Cavani being the recipient of that, likewise Greenwood.
Also what about his form last season? Does that not matter?

People here have a freakishly short memory. Maybe need to quote posts of earlier this season. Rashford, Greenwood and Cavani were struggling to score goals - until Pogba came back and slotted in on the left hand side. Also, Bruno regained his form. Teams do have bad patches - we were playing poorly collectively and now are playing much, much better.

Exactly this point.
Bruno, Rashford & Martial each were being double marked at any given time, Greenwood was in seriously bad form, Pogba was injured or in bad form. James is James and McFred offer very little attacking presence. The whole team just circulated the ball sideways against the likes of West Brom & Burnley.
Cavani was running like a mad man making great runs and nobody was passing him the ball because nobody could.
It's great the resurgence in performance we've had in the last 4/5 months but we shouldn't forget that early in the season we were seriously devoid of any attacking ideas.
So it's no surprise that Martial struggled.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

There's a correlation to us playing well by getting the most out of Pogba and Bruno at the same time, and Cavani being the recipient of that, likewise Greenwood.
Also what about his form last season? Does that not matter?



Exactly this point.
Bruno, Rashford & Martial each were being double marked at any given time, Greenwood was in seriously bad form, Pogba was injured or in bad form. James is James and McFred offer very little attacking presence. The whole team just circulated the ball sideways against the likes of West Brom & Burnley.
Cavani was running like a mad man making great runs and nobody was passing him the ball because nobody could.
It's great the resurgence in performance we've had in the last 4/5 months but we shouldn't forget that early in the season we were seriously devoid of any attacking ideas.
So it's no surprise that Martial struggled.

ok. So martial would be scoring at the rate of Cavani if he was in the team. Or even at 1/2 rate.

no one believes that except you. His form has been diabolical.

 

[VP89]

Again that's subjective, is his movement as good as Cavani's? No. Very few strikers are. He's a different style, he plays back to goal, prefers passes to feet where he can run in behind. He struggled to do that early in the season because we struggled against the low-block, Bruno was getting double marked and we had no idea how to string two forward passes together. But he shined last season playing exactly that way, interchangeably with Rashford and at times Greenwood - there's nothing to suggest that he's suddenly lost that ability because he's had a season.

Cavani, Haaland, Kane, Lewa is the ilk of striker we should be going for. All of these players are far more alive in the 12 yard box and have ruthless presence to put away half chances, and that's the standard of a United striker, be it Ruud or RVP or Zlatan or Cavani. Martial is not of that ilk, which is why it just won't work for him in the 9.

I would also argue that Rashford has equally frustrated fans for prolonged periods of time over multiple seasons. Personally the criticism that he & Martial get is OTT imo, but it's to be expected from our fans at this point. I don't doubt that Greenwood or Amad will suffer the same fate if they go through similar dips in form.

He has, but he's playing through injury and still has numbers to keep criticism at bay. If he was shite + he had no goals/assists to point to either then he'd get ridiculed like Martial has. But the fact remains that whilst hot/cold Rashford has maintained output in the business end, whilst keeping alive in his runs, take-ons etc. He's also doing a lot of this out of position.

Well considering we haven't signed Sancho yet, Pogba hasn't signed an extension yet, and Amad is yet to be proven in the PL - selling Martial isn't going to happen this summer. And if he's given a run of games in an in-form team he will continue to get back to his consistent output - but there's no point talking in hypothetical situations, it's best to wait and see. I'm excited to see him playing for us again soon.
This was one of the better debates on the football forum I felt, we can agree to disagree, I think further discussion will just lead to us talking in circles.

Also I'd say we need a CDM more than a CB, but both would be preferred. We won't be selling Martial to fund it though

My post (and I think the others that you suggested were disrespectful) were not based on the premise that Pogba leaves and we don't get Sancho. I'm saying if we keep Pogba, and bring in Sancho, then selling Martial doesn't really take much away from our attack. And that's speaking volumes about a player who happens to be what, our 2nd highest earner.

 

[villain]

ok. So martial would be scoring at the rate of Cavani if he was in the team. Or even at 1/2 rate.

no one believes that except you. His form has been diabolical.

You're putting words in my mouth, and making conclusions that I haven't made. I said Cavani has been the recipient of the team playing better, as has Greenwoord - I believe Martial would've also done well while we've been playing better because that's exactly what he did last season when we were playing well then too.

Martial has been scoring or assisting in 1/2 games over the course of his united career - including the barren spell he's in this season.
You seem to suggest that his form over the last 6 months (before he got injured) is a better indicator of his ability than his form over the last 6 years, which is ridiculous.

 

[OL29]

They were still both more effective and scored goals when it mattered, as opposed to Martial who would have been benched by the pair if playing in the same team as them.

Posts like this are why it’s hard to take a lot of the criticism of Martial on this forum seriously. You can’t genuinely believe that a washed up Michael Owen and Diego Forlan at man united would outperform Martial? Either you’re wumming or you’re blinded by hate.

@villain was correct in her initial post, the disrespect this guy gets in here is extremely ott.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

You're putting words in my mouth, and making conclusions that I haven't made. I said Cavani has been the recipient of the team playing better, as has Greenwoord - I believe Martial would've also done well while we've been playing better because that's exactly what he did last season when we were playing well then too.

Martial has been scoring or assisting in 1/2 games over the course of his united career - including the barren spell he's in this season.
You seem to suggest that his form over the last 6 months (before he got injured) is a better indicator of his ability than his form over the last 6 years, which is ridiculous.

he’s clearly in an appalling run of form - there’s nothing to suggest that he would suddenly regain form of last season. So yes obviously his form from the last 6 months is a better indicator of how he is playing now.

best case scenario is that he has a reset in the summer. He has no place in our starting line up at the moment. If he had been fit, I’m sure he would have played tonight - and that’s indicative of where he’s currently at.

Cavani has really shown him up in the last few months. This is how we can play with a world class striker. Look I’m not anti-martial. But he should not be first choice striker. He has a place in the squad, but would be a better option from the left.

 

[crossy1686]

Posts like this are why it’s hard to take a lot of the criticism of Martial on this forum seriously. You can’t genuinely believe that a washed up Michael Owen and Diego Forlan at man united would outperform Martial? Either you’re wumming or you’re blinded by hate.

@villain was correct in her initial post, the disrespect this guy gets in here is extremely ott.

I don't hate him, I want him to do well for United but he's not good enough. Michael Owen scored bigger goals in important matches, albeit for a short time but if Martial had Owen's goal scoring ability this wouldn't even be a debate. Forlan lost Fergie's trust and was booted out but he wasn't a bad player at all. Martial has had half a season of goalscoring prowess and the rest of the time he's flattered to deceive.

People think that potential is a commodity but it's worth feck all if you never realise it.

 

[villain]

he’s clearly in an appalling run of form - there’s nothing to suggest that he would suddenly regain form of last season. So yes obviously his form from the last 6 months is a better indicator of how he is playing now.

best case scenario is that he has a reset in the summer. He has no place in our starting line up at the moment. If he had been fit, I’m sure he would have played tonight - and that’s indicative of where he’s currently at.

Cavani has really shown him up in the last few months. This is how we can play with a world class striker. Look I’m not anti-martial. But he should not be first choice striker. He has a place in the squad, but would be a better option from the left.

He's had a bad season, it happens and it certainly isn't the end of the world. Plus he's only 25 and only played 1 full season as a striker for us. Like I was saying to @VP89 I think he's inexperienced as a striker, but last season he showed that he has the capability to score goals consistently up top. He can learn from Cavani and his ability to play in multiple positions is valuable.

I agree that he needs a reset, and hopefully he's managed to rest while he's been out injured. I also agree that he doesn't have a place in the starting line up - but that shouldn't be seen as an indication that he's terrible. The best teams in the world have the squad depth, and don't lose quality when rotating/resting/subbing players depending on the opposition or occasion. I value a team that has multiple players contributing 20+ G&A personally and I think we're setting up that way in the long term, I wouldn't want us to be too reliant on 1 or two players for goals.

The hyperbole around him (and a few of our players) is OTT, as a fanbase we really are toxic and quick to dismiss our own players - you'd think he was a parody player the way some people describe his ability. It's unnecessary but has been normalised unfortunately, especially on here.

 

[OL29]

I don't hate him, I want him to do well for United but he's not good enough. Michael Owen scored bigger goals in important matches, albeit for a short time but if Martial had Owen's goal scoring ability this wouldn't even be a debate. Forlan lost Fergie's trust and was booted out but he wasn't a bad player at all. Martial has had half a season of goalscoring prowess and the rest of the time he's flattered to deceive.

People think that potential is a commodity but it's worth feck all if you never realise it.

Which goals are these? I can remember the hattrick against Wolfsburg and the goal against Man City, any others? Last season alone Martial scored against City and Chelsea, home and away, including two match winners, along with plenty of important goals to help us secure top 4. Over the years he’s scored and assisted against all of our big six rivals, making plenty of match winning contributions. To claim that he’d be outperformed by two players who scored 17 goals each in total for us is delusion on a level that can only be described as hate.

 

[Eugenius]

The cognitive dissonance between the 'Martial has always been rubbish' crew and him literally being our player of the season just last year is really quite something.

 

[Raven]

Which goals are these? I can remember the hattrick against Wolfsburg and the goal against Man City, any others? Last season alone Martial scored against City and Chelsea, home and away, including two match winners, along with plenty of important goals to help us secure top 4. Over the years he’s scored and assisted against all of our big six rivals, making plenty of match winning contributions. To claim that he’d be outperformed by two players who scored 17 goals each in total for us is delusion on a level that can only be described as hate.

I just don't understand why people have to pedal lies to try and get their points across. Trying to argue that Michael Owen was the better player for us is a new level of stupid.

 

[Escobar]

The cognitive dissonance between the 'Martial has always been rubbish' crew and him literally being our player of the season just last year is really quite something.

Last year he was good in the 2nd half. The problem is that you can't rely on him, there is still no consistency while his flaws are still there and obvious. We should sell him imo

 

[Eugenius]

Last year he was good in the 2nd half. The problem is that you can't rely on him, there is still no consistency while his flaws are still there and obvious. We should sell him imo

He was good across the whole season. He and Rashford carried our attack despite playing with Fred, McT, Dan James and Lingard around them in the first part of it. He started well and then got injured (which coincided with us struggling) and then came back and was good.

If he was only good in the second half then he wouldn't have been our Players' POTS (given that's the same time period Bruno joined, or Rashford would have won it).

His lack of form this season is a fair reason to doubt whether he can be our #9 permanently - there's certainly no Mourinho jedi mind tricks at play now. But you don't need to downplay his season last year to do it.

 

[TheReligion]

When's this cnut due back then?

 

[tjb]

I never really rated him. I always felt that his technical skills were always heavily exaggerated and were exposed completely by the fact that he could only dribble one way, cutting it. Hs inability to offer any semblance of a decent performance on the right exposes that. He's very one footed in that respect. He's not creative either, unlike Rashford he can't find a pass. He's also pretty passive, consistently letting games pass him, not having the aggression to dribble at defenders constantly to provide fear, only offering that once every ten games. His biggest crime however, is his lack of off ball movement, its a subject that has been discussed since his arrival and he still hasn't improved on it. Add that to his passive personality and you have the opposite of what we want in a United forward; risk averse, poor determination, passive, lazy and unwilling to learn.

 

[Foxbatt]

He has had a terrible season. I think he has been unlucky too. He was missing chances you normally bet your house on. Before this season you can bet Martial to score when one v one. Now he cannot even buy a goal. He is not going to score those goals Cavani scores. But Cavani is not going to score goals like Martial scored. He still has a part to play at United. We had Ole, Teddy, Cole and Yorke. If he is willing to be a part of the strike force let it be. He brings something else to the team. I like to see Ole try him and Cavani close up front with Martial dropping deeper while Cavani stays up front.