[snk123]

I did, the vast majority of them were saying pretty much the exact same thing.

Martial has every footballing tangible you could hope for in a forward; size, speed, strength, first touch, dribbling ability, two footedness etc.

He just seems to also lack the intangibles required to make use of those gifts. He’s 26 this year - the idea of a dramatic shift in his mentality seems unlikely.

Many people say he's overrated and not talented. My concern is that we haven't really played great football to judge Martial. Sure Martial has been dogshit this season in many of the games but all our forwards have been poor this season.

Would Martial struggle as much in a City side? at Dortmund? at PSG? The answer is no - he would probably thrive playing in a proper footballing system with technical players. As much as everyone loves Mason and Marcus, it's a nightmare to play with them because you never know if you're going to get the pass or not.

 

[lex talionis]

Tony is blessed with abundant talent, but cursed with inadequate commitment.

 

[Holocene]

Many people say he's overrated and not talented. My concern is that we haven't really played great football to judge Martial. Sure Martial has been dogshit this season in many of the games but all our forwards have been poor this season.

Would Martial struggle as much in a City side? at Dortmund? at PSG? The answer is no - he would probably thrive playing in a proper footballing system with technical players. As much as everyone loves Mason and Marcus, it's a nightmare to play with them because you never know if you're going to get the pass or not.

I agree with most of your point. But I don't think it's fair to put Mason there.

 

[Sayros]

Ben Arfa had real talent, unique talent but his career has been a big disappointment. You're confusing talent with something else. A player can have it without the mental element to turn that talent into real and consistent application

I honestly don't know if I'm the one confusing talent with something else, it's just a topic that seems so subjective. I think we see players like Ben Arfa, Morrison, Tony, etc, players with great dribbling skills, or dominating performances against youth teams, or a touch that is like a gift from god, and we say that's talent (and I'm as guilty as anybody), but it's just such a tiny part of what makes a footballer's ability in the game. I think talent is also someone who can naturally find space in the box, either through instinct or just reading of the game (which I think is as much of a gift as great dribbling), or someone who can constantly push the limits of their game and find new ways to improve. I think the definition we assign to talent is very limited. Ben Arfa was a gifted dribbler, he was not a talented footballer overall IMO. I think real talent would have made more of their careers, same with Morisson, and now I'm afraid Martial as well.

 

[acnumber9]

As much as everyone loves Mason and Marcus, it's a nightmare to play with them because you never know if you're going to get the pass or not.

And yet Rashford not only passes the ball considerably more often than Martial, he also does it more accurately. Greenwood is about the same level at the moment.

 

[AgentSmith]

Many people say he's overrated and not talented. My concern is that we haven't really played great football to judge Martial. Sure Martial has been dogshit this season in many of the games but all our forwards have been poor this season.

Would Martial struggle as much in a City side? at Dortmund? at PSG? The answer is no - he would probably thrive playing in a proper footballing system with technical players. As much as everyone loves Mason and Marcus, it's a nightmare to play with them because you never know if you're going to get the pass or not.

Would Martial thrive in a top team? Maybe.

Would a top team actually choose to play Martial given his issues with work rate and attitude? Probably not.

I think the second answer is a stronger hypothetical than the first. Guardiola had an issue with Aguero’s attacking and defensive work rate when he first joined. Aguero was forced to adapt.

Martial in his current state wouldn't get near a Pep team. And that’s despite him having all the technical skill required to do so. It just reinforces the difference between talent and mentality and how you need both to succeed at the top level.

 

[Hammondo]

Many people say he's overrated and not talented. My concern is that we haven't really played great football to judge Martial. Sure Martial has been dogshit this season in many of the games but all our forwards have been poor this season.

Would Martial struggle as much in a City side? at Dortmund? at PSG? The answer is no - he would probably thrive playing in a proper footballing system with technical players. As much as everyone loves Mason and Marcus, it's a nightmare to play with them because you never know if you're going to get the pass or not.

He would struggle to make the bench in some of those

Many people say he's overrated and not talented. My concern is that we haven't really played great football to judge Martial. Sure Martial has been dogshit this season in many of the games but all our forwards have been poor this season.

Would Martial struggle as much in a City side? at Dortmund? at PSG? The answer is no - he would probably thrive playing in a proper footballing system with technical players. As much as everyone loves Mason and Marcus, it's a nightmare to play with them because you never know if you're going to get the pass or not.

He would struggle to make the bench in some of those teams.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Injured. Why the feck did we let him go on international duty when he’s missed our last few games? We let Rashford link up with the England squad too. Do we even have physios?

 

[snk123]

And yet Rashford not only passes the ball considerably more often than Martial, he also does it more accurately. Greenwood is about the same level at the moment.

Do you actually watch games or just see the stats at the end and figure out everyone's performances?

 

[snk123]

Would Martial thrive in a top team? Maybe.

Would a top team actually choose to play Martial given his issues with work rate and attitude? Probably not.

I think the second answer is a stronger hypothetical than the first. Guardiola had an issue with Aguero’s attacking and defensive work rate when he first joined. Aguero was forced to adapt.

Martial in his current state wouldn't get near a Pep team. And that’s despite him having all the technical skill required to do so. It just reinforces the difference between talent and mentality and how you need both to succeed at the top level.

I agree - but Martial may not be at his current state if he was in a Pep team. Maybe he'll work harder - because he's certainly capable of it and does when required.
People have already made up their opinion that Martial doesn't work hard and I've seen even when he does, it's not recognized.

 

[snk123]

I agree with most of your point. But I don't think it's fair to put Mason there.

Of course - he's young and improving but the point is all our forwards have struggled this season on the whole. They've all been good in patches. Our football is too reliant on individual brilliance and Bruno - and every time Bruno has had an off game, our forwards have been poor. So would you judge Greenwood based on this season? No.

 

[acnumber9]

Do you actually watch games or just see the stats at the end and figure out everyone's performances?

I watch them thanks. The stats just happen to agree. Because they’re based on reality, not your fantasy.

 

[snk123]

I think real talent would have made more of their careers, same with Morisson, and now I'm afraid Martial as well.

Martial is on 200-250K a week at one of the biggest clubs in the world so I would say he's made a lot of his career and is unfair to compare him with Morrison and Ben Arfa. Even if Martial moves, it won't be to Newcastle. The way you are describing talent, you're forgetting Martial has much more to his game as well. Quick one two/link up is also a talent? Ability to score by chipping the keeper? Knowing when to pass the ball? The weight on the pass? Turning with the ball? Upper body strength to hold off the defender? Skills with the ball in the air? etc.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Injured. Why the feck did we let him go on international duty when he’s missed our last few games? We let Rashford link up with the England squad too. Do we even have physios?

Do you mean Martial?

He played the last game.

Don't know what the physio comment is about (other than just being here another dig at United)? Players have to report if selected so the country medical team can make their own assessment

 

[snk123]

I watch them thanks. The stats just happen to agree. Because they’re based on reality, not your fantasy.

Really? Do you not notice Rashford not passing when he needs to? So you think Rashford makes the right decision in front of goal because he has marginally better "total passes" per game stat? Wow.

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

The thing about Martial is that you know he has the top level to play for United. I think it would be stupid to sell him while his stock is low and the economy in shambles for most clubs.
Rather keep him in the squad and see if he can't find back to some form again. If this continues next season, then of course we would have to let him go.

 

[Sayros]

Martial is on 200-250K a week at one of the biggest clubs in the world so I would say he's made a lot of his career and is unfair to compare him with Morrison and Ben Arfa. Even if Martial moves, it won't be to Newcastle. The way you are describing talent, you're forgetting Martial has much more to his game as well. Quick one two/link up is also a talent? Ability to score by chipping the keeper? Knowing when to pass the ball? The weight on the pass? Turning with the ball? Upper body strength to hold off the defender? Skills with the ball in the air? etc.

I agree with you, and I'm not forgetting those facets of his game, I've argued many times for the things you describe as to why he should not be given up on for the past five years on this forum.
However, some of what you've described, he hardly does though, he often messes the weight or timing of his passes. I can think of 1-2 goals where he's chipped the keeper, his finishes are often very similar outside of the odd wonder-goal, and part of the reason why he's not finishing his chances as much; he's predictable..

He is a great reference point in offense when he's on because he has the best hold-up ability on the team IMO, is very strong for his size, and he is clever in his link-up at times, more often than not, so no disagreement with you there but it's not often the case.

He's also the only guy, I've said it many times, that can really dribble his way out of a situation I don't think anybody else on the team can, but even last season that was hardly to be seen, and it seems to be gone from his game in the last couple of seasons.

Your only point that I find a bit weak though is about him being on 250k is in some way a reflection of his talent, and not rather an indictment on United's decision-making, acting on their perception of his talent which I think is turning out to have been a mistake, . I wasn't directly comparing his career to that of Morisson (who's still a popular subject here, that's the only reason I mentioned him), or Ben Arfa who was more than just a brilliant dribbler himself, and considered ultra-talented at a young age, but turned out to just be very limited. I'm worried Martial is headed in that direction of promise unfulfilled.

The thing about Martial is that you know he has the top level to play for United. I think it would be stupid to sell him while his stock is low and the economy in shambles for most clubs.
Rather keep him in the squad and see if he can't find back to some form again. If this continues next season, then of course we would have to let him go.

Again though, selling him is hardly an option when he's on those kinds of wages, so there really is no choice but to persist with him and hope he turns it around.

 

[RedDevilzFox]

I actually cannot figure it out what is it with Martial. Talent is there but consistency is not. I wonder what's keeping him taking it to the next level. Most people throw around regular phrases like "lack of commitment", "not hard working", "poor attitude" and I don't see any of that to be so obvious. Maybe his coaches/manager might know but I've never heard anyone say much of anything.

I feel Martial is waiting for something to go to the next level but not sure what that is. I must also volunteer maybe this is his level and fans have higher expectations that just aren't going to happen.

 

[TheReligion]

What's the injury then?

Not really arsed what you all think of him.

 

[acnumber9]

Really? Do you not notice Rashford not passing when he needs to? So you think Rashford makes the right decision in front of goal because he has marginally better "total passes" per game stat? Wow.

I’ve noticed him passing more than Martial. I’ve noticed him creating more chances. I’ve noticed him scoring more goals. These are all facts, not opinions. You can put your fingers in your ears all you want.

 

[DoomSlayer]

I’ve noticed him passing more than Martial. I’ve noticed him creating more chances. I’ve noticed him scoring more goals. These are all facts, not opinions. You can put your fingers in your ears all you want.

It's funny how people discredit factual evidence and instead rely on "emotions", "feelings" and "hunches".

 

[acnumber9]

It's funny how people discredit factual evidence and instead rely on "emotions", "feelings" and "hunches".

The modern football fan is more about individuals I find. To the point where players on the same team are seen as rivals.

 

[DoomSlayer]

The modern football fan is more about individuals I find. To the point where players on the same team are seen as rivals.

Yeah, it's becoming a bit like basketball, unfortunately.

 

[snk123]

It's funny how people discredit factual evidence and instead rely on "emotions", "feelings" and "hunches".

What is the factual evidence really? Rashford passes the ball 35 times in a match - Martial passes it 22 times. Wtf does that tell you? Does it tell you about the decision making? When Rashford should have passed the ball or not?

Also, I don't want this to be a Martial vs Rashford debate - just pointing out that it is a pain play with Mason and Marcus because they are extremely selfish at times. Unpopular opinion I know because they are English and get a pass.

 

[DoomSlayer]

What is the factual evidence really? Rashford passes the ball 35 times in a match - Martial passes it 22 times. Wtf does that tell you? Does it tell you about the decision making? When Rashford should have passed the ball or not?

Also, I don't want this to be a Martial vs Rashford debate - just pointing out that it is a pain play with Mason and Marcus because they are extremely selfish at times. Unpopular opinion I know because they are English and get a pass.

I'm not English or British, so spare me the "British DNA agenda" BS.

Though of course, as our own youth players, Marcus and Mason would get far more leniency in my book, which is natural, because I feel a bigger connection with them, as I know they are true Man United fans.

 

[JustinC00]

I think the most talented players perform regardless of the quality of players they are up against. How many times can we say that Martial has put any decent team to the sword?

This. He probably should have had 2 goals and an assist today but he just seems to lack that final killer edge.

Like this, this would've been a goal if he had it

 

[kouroux]

I honestly don't know if I'm the one confusing talent with something else, it's just a topic that seems so subjective. I think we see players like Ben Arfa, Morrison, Tony, etc, players with great dribbling skills, or dominating performances against youth teams, or a touch that is like a gift from god, and we say that's talent (and I'm as guilty as anybody), but it's just such a tiny part of what makes a footballer's ability in the game. I think talent is also someone who can naturally find space in the box, either through instinct or just reading of the game (which I think is as much of a gift as great dribbling), or someone who can constantly push the limits of their game and find new ways to improve. I think the definition we assign to talent is very limited. Ben Arfa was a gifted dribbler, he was not a talented footballer overall IMO. I think real talent would have made more of their careers, same with Morisson, and now I'm afraid Martial as well.

Ben Arfa was the most gifted of his generation, he was more than just dribbling. Along the way he just turned into a parody basically which is sad when you think about it. Morisson's issues have nothing to do with talents, his recent interview with Rio gave good details about why he couldn't make it.

 

[Idxomer]

He played well today.

 

[snk123]

Ben Arfa was the most gifted of his generation, he was more than just dribbling. Along the way he just turned into a parody basically which is sad when you think about it. Morisson's issues have nothing to do with talents, his recent interview with Rio gave good details about why he couldn't make it.

Didn't Ben Arfa struggle with injuries as well that hampered his career? I remember him being injured a lot...

 

[snk123]

This. He probably should have had 2 goals and an assist today but he just seems to lack that final killer edge.

Like this, this would've been a goal if he had it

A little slower than last year for sure. Is that how he got injured as well?

 

[Bwuk]

This. He probably should have had 2 goals and an assist today but he just seems to lack that final killer edge.

Like this, this would've been a goal if he had it

Agreed. Haaland scores here.

 

[snk123]

Not bad. Has he ever taken a freekick for us? His shooting technique is ideal for freekicks.

 

[He'sRaldo]

A little slower than last year for sure. Is that how he got injured as well?

I think we bulk up our players, forwards especially, and it affects their mobility and agility.

Just a guess, but the bulking up and subsequent loss of mobility & stamina has happened to quite a few of our players now.

 

[Hawks2008]

I actually cannot figure it out what is it with Martial. Talent is there but consistency is not. I wonder what's keeping him taking it to the next level. Most people throw around regular phrases like "lack of commitment", "not hard working", "poor attitude" and I don't see any of that to be so obvious. Maybe his coaches/manager might know but I've never heard anyone say much of anything.

I feel Martial is waiting for something to go to the next level but not sure what that is. I must also volunteer maybe this is his level and fans have higher expectations that just aren't going to happen.

It's definitely mental, I just can't shake the feeling is he likes it easy or is easily discouraged. When a striker has come in to compete with him (Zlatan, Lukaku, Cavani) his form is considerably worse than when he has a clear path to the 11. He seems to much prefer the easier ball to the feet than making lots of runs off the ball that mightn't pay off. When he can come in from the left and side foot it he shoots because he's confident in his shot from those areas, but he doesn't score nearly often enough from other positions and he doesn't even pull the trigger in other positions at times. He has some ability but for all the blame on coaches or systems or team-mates he is simply a mental midget and until he gets past that he's not the answer.

 

[Sky1981]

I actually cannot figure it out what is it with Martial. Talent is there but consistency is not. I wonder what's keeping him taking it to the next level. Most people throw around regular phrases like "lack of commitment", "not hard working", "poor attitude" and I don't see any of that to be so obvious. Maybe his coaches/manager might know but I've never heard anyone say much of anything.

I feel Martial is waiting for something to go to the next level but not sure what that is. I must also volunteer maybe this is his level and fans have higher expectations that just aren't going to happen.

When you cant even bother to run. It reflects alot on your personality. It's lazy and there's no two ways about it.

It's about hunger and determination. If you can't even bother to run that extra oomph at a crucial match what makes you think he'd run that extra at training?

And all those extra efforts helps over the year.

 

[Sayros]

When you cant even bother to run. It reflects alot on your personality. It's lazy and there's no two ways about it.

It's about hunger and determination. If you can't even bother to run that extra oomph at a crucial match what makes you think he'd run that extra at training?

And all those extra efforts helps over the year.

The problem with this is, why would Ole keep selecting him all these games since he took over if he wasn't putting in the work in training? He's had to stop starting him recently because of his performances on the pitch, but I'm sure he's doing enough in training to get the consideration and protection Ole's afforded him since he's been manager.

 

[Sky1981]

The problem with this is, why would Ole keep selecting him all these games since he took over if he wasn't putting in the work in training? He's had to stop starting him recently because of his performances on the pitch, but I'm sure he's doing enough in training to get the consideration and protection Ole's afforded him since he's been manager.

Ole is not ruthless enough. He is still one of fans favorite, imagine if he doesnt get a game people will blame ole. Play him and it's still Ole's fault.

That's why i think with players like martial best to just sell them and be done with it

 

[littleman]

Many people say he's overrated and not talented. My concern is that we haven't really played great football to judge Martial. Sure Martial has been dogshit this season in many of the games but all our forwards have been poor this season.

Would Martial struggle as much in a City side? at Dortmund? at PSG? The answer is no - he would probably thrive playing in a proper footballing system with technical players. As much as everyone loves Mason and Marcus, it's a nightmare to play with them because you never know if you're going to get the pass or not.

Oh god, same set of arguments used for Rooney and Carrick and tons of players before them. Wake up

 

[littleman]

The modern football fan is more about individuals I find. To the point where players on the same team are seen as rivals.

It’s because these players have become so well paid they become their own businesses. Comp wasn’t this high 10 years ago, and it’s not just pay but also other revenue streams like sponsorships.

This means players now have their own entourages and support teams.. including astroturfers. These lapdogs have only one mission — protect their employer. Their employer’s teammate is not important and is even an enemy if he or she threatens their place in the team.

Cue posters like snk

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

When a striker has come in to compete with him (Zlatan, Lukaku, Cavani) his form is considerably worse than when he has a clear path to the 11

I mean, he was given a 5 year contract worth more than 200k a week, made the starting no.9 beginning of 2019/2020 season, No Lukaku or Zalatan to compete the striker spot with, Cavani was brought in for 1 year contract as cover, and this season he started all the games except the ones he was suspended for and the odd cup games in the early start of the season, this is an evidence of him being seen as the starting no.9 for the team, and Martial knows it, so yes it's probably a mental issue, but it has nothing to do with the fact of him competing for starting no.9