[JPRouve]

I just love how people keep trying to change the narrative as to what his role is. First if was "He isn't a winger he's a striker" and then "he isn't a proper striker he's a false 9" and even some suggesting he might actually be a 10. Constant excuses for a guy who is 24 and has played nearly 200 games for the club. The fact is his showing against Everton is usually the norm which is frustrating because he has some quality.

Comparisons to Firmino are wide of the mark IMO. Firmino is much better at operating between the lines, is more creative, and actually works off the ball. Martial dropping deep is no excuse for having no presence in the box, Rooney did it all the time and was always arriving into the area and attacking the ball and there's no reason Martial shouldn't be either.

I find it strange how everything is seen as an excuse, it's a very strange way of seeing things. Martial is a striker and he generally does well when our midfield is able to properly move the ball to the final third like pretty much every attackers on earth. Now regarding his best role, he is comparable to players like Benzema or Anelka, they are only useful if you use them as hubs in the final third, none of them will be great in an attack that relies on crosses or running behind the defense all day long. Personally I think that he is a great fit with Rashford on the left and we need an other goalscoring wide player on the left and a midfield that isn't useless half 8 out of 10 times. Now if the manager wants something else, a different dynamic then it's fine for me, we don't need to have someone like Martial.

 

[Majima]

I find it strange how everything is seen as an excuse, it's a very strange way of seeing things. Martial is a striker and he generally does well when our midfield is able to properly move the ball to the final third like pretty much every attackers on earth. Now regarding his best role, he is comparable to players like Benzema or Anelka, they are only useful if you use them as hubs in the final third, none of them will be great in an attack that relies on crosses or running behind the defense all day long. Personally I think that he is a great fit with Rashford on the left and we need an other goalscoring wide player on the left and a midfield that isn't useless half 8 out of 10 times. Now if the maanger wants something else, a different dynamic then it's fine for me, we don't need to have someone like Martial.

We don't need to have someone like Martial, but i believe, our ceiling is much higher and we're more likely to be successful with someone like him in it. Is he a classic 9? no, but his talent is very valuable, the same way Benzema's was crucial for Real's success.

Who else do we have in the attack who is as heavily involved in the build-up, knitting the attack together, opening up space for the others as much as him? When we're missing a 10 as much as we are, he is invaluable to me right now.

I agree that Rashford & Martial make a great pair, we're just missing the goal-scoring attacker for the right. James is a rotation player, he isn't good enough yet. Of course the midfield needs upgrading too, that goes without saying.

 

[He'sRaldo]

We don't need to have someone like Martial, but i believe, our ceiling is much higher and we're more likely to be successful with someone like him in it. Is he a classic 9? no, but his talent is very valuable, the same way Benzema's was crucial for Real's success.

My view as well. Easy to mark out one target man striker, but a striker who can bring others into play and make others score goals means you can't cut out the goals by simply trying to mark him.

Which ultimately makes players like Ronaldo (and Rashford) play better on the wing.

 

[JPRouve]

We don't need to have someone like Martial, but i believe, our ceiling is much higher and we're more likely to be successful with someone like him in it. Is he a classic 9? no, but his talent is very valuable, the same way Benzema's was crucial for Real's success.

Who else do we have in the attack who is as heavily involved in the build-up, knitting the attack together, opening up space for the others as much as him? When we're missing a 10 as much as we are, he is invaluable to me right now.

I agree that Rashford & Martial make a great pair, we're just missing the goal-scoring attacker for the right. James is a rotation player, he isn't good enough yet. Of course the midfield needs upgrading too, that goes without saying.

That sentence wasn't meant negatively, the point was just that at the end of the day you can have an efficient attack with different types of player. But I kind of agree with you, in the sense that wide forwards seems to be more common than traditional wingers and traditional strikers seem to not provide enough goals or creativity to justify the fact that they need more support than most clubs can afford from a tactical standpoint.
That's the issue with someone like Lukaku, he objectively is a good striker but he isn't a striker that will launch you to the top of European football when he will still require a lot of support that is specifically designed for his style, I'm not saying that Martial will lead a top team just that his qualities require less support, you don't have to build a team for him, as long as you can play the ball to his feet you have done almost everything needed.

Now it's clear that current Martial can't be the finished product, he needs to improve on his intensity, I don't mind the fact that he doesn't run around like a maniac but as I mentioned in the past something that I noticed from top players is that they alternate periods of very low intensity with periods of extremely high intensity, Griezmann and Ribéry are good examples of that because people have a good opinion when it comes to their workrate when both players have the habit of almost disappearing at times and then pop up and play way faster than anyone else on the pitch, Suarez and Messi do that too. They pick their moments and make them counts when someone like Martial doesn't have that nous, he needs to be smarter, he can't press the opponents with intensity just to stop 5 meters away from him and then not play a counter attack at 100%, it's the opposite that should happen.

 

[Majima]

That sentence wasn't meant negatively, the point was just that at the end of the day you can have an efficient attack with different types of player. But I kind of agree with you, in the sense that wide forwards seems to be more common than traditional wingers and traditional strikers seem to not provide enough goals or creativity to justify the fact that they need more support than most clubs can afford from a tactical standpoint.
That's the issue with someone like Lukaku, he objectively is a good striker but he isn't a striker that will launch you to the top of European football when he will still require a lot of support that is specifically designed for his style, I'm not saying that Martial will lead a top team just that his qualities require less support, you don't have to build a team for him, as long as you can play the ball to his feet you have done almost everything needed.

Now it's clear that current Martial can't be the finished product, he needs to improve on his intensity, I don't mind the fact that he doesn't run around like a maniac but as I mentioned in the past something that I noticed from top players is that they alternate periods of very low intensity with periods of extremely high intensity, Griezmann and Ribéry are good examples of that because people have a good opinion when it comes to their workrate when both players have the habit of almost disappearing at times and then pop up and play way faster than anyone else on the pitch, Suarez and Messi do that too. They pick their moments and make them counts when someone like Martial doesn't have that nous, he needs to be smarter, he can't press the opponents with intensity just to stop 5 meters away from him and then not play a counter attack at 100%, it's the opposite that should happen.

I never took your post the wrong way, i was just starting a conversation. The criticism that Martial gets from a media/fans standpoint, that i see, is that they are comparing him to more traditional strikers like Lukaku. They appear to want a striker that 'attacks the near post' and 'gets on the end of James' crosses' for instance, ignoring the draw-backs of that style and the transition of modern clubs to a more fluid attacking style. A transition that everyone was in full agreement of, whilst Lukaku was still here.

Your last paragraph is very interesting. I agree that analysing his game, his intensity attacking with/without the ball needs to be higher in certain periods. Like you say, he doesn't need to be running around like a maniac, but he does need to be having spells where his talent can affect matches more. All the top players have that in common with each other. Right now, i would say he is doing most of the work of a top forward, his hold-up & link-up play are all excellent, but he's just missing the thrust that the very best players have in the final third. I wonder if he's still getting fully used to playing as a striker again? I.e. that he hasn't got his role down to unconscious competence yet. Because he seems to have lost part of his old self that would dribble and attack defences all day. Almost as if he is playing within himself a bit.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

The question is, how did you rate Firmino before Mane and Salah came in?

I remember tons of Liverpool fans complaining about Firmino "we need 30 goals a season striker" until those two came in to work with Klopp. Now that he's being used effectively, they say Firmino is the most underrated striker.

It is true to an extent what you say about Firminho. I remember watching liverpool before Salah and Mane came in and thinking that Firminho and Emre Can weren't very good but the biggest difference between him and Martial is workrate. Firminho never could of been faulted in that department which is why Liverpool are benefitting so much now with the inclusion of Salah and Mane.

Take Firminho out of that side and put in Martial and Klopp will have him benched within 2 games. Martial is his own worst enemy. He has all the attributes to be the star of United but without the attitude of a Firminho he isn't going to make it and it wouldn't matter the quality of the players he has round him.

Nicholas Anelka mk11

 

[Isotope]

Just watched these videos, I didn't think my eyes were playing tricks on me, he had a mixed game and lacked a goal threat but to say he looked disinterested is a complete fabrication. He was constantly dropping deep, linking play and trying to get into the box. He reminds me a bit of Nani in that, if they don't score or assist in a game it's down to a poor attitude. Certain players just aren't afforded the luxury of a poor game.

Comparison with Nani couldn't be further from the truth. Nani may be frustrating, but it was never about his work-rate.

 

[OL29]

Comparison with Nani couldn't be further from the truth. Nani may be frustrating, but it was never about his work-rate.

Well it was certainly a stick his detractors used to beat him with.

 

[Bebestation]

Comparison with Nani couldn't be further from the truth. Nani may be frustrating, but it was never about his work-rate.

It was about his consistency though? Nani was complained about that not his work rate. Nani apart from a season or 2 was never consistent and that was whilst playing with players like Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, Valencia, Berbatov, Van Persie, Vidic, Ferdinand.

Martial's work rate would get him 3-5 more goals more a season with this current squad playing tactics that don't suit him.

 

[Bebestation]

It is true to an extent what you say about Firminho. I remember watching liverpool before Salah and Mane came in and thinking that Firminho and Emre Can weren't very good but the biggest difference between him and Martial is workrate. Firminho never could of been faulted in that department which is why Liverpool are benefitting so much now with the inclusion of Salah and Mane.

Take Firminho out of that side and put in Martial and Klopp will have him benched within 2 games. Martial is his own worst enemy. He has all the attributes to be the star of United but without the attitude of a Firminho he isn't going to make it and it wouldn't matter the quality of the players he has round him.

Nicholas Anelka mk11

But that still doesn't hide the fact that James isnt playing like Salah even if Martial is a less hard working firmino does it?

It's the poor tactics.

Daniel James crosses means absolutely nothing for Rashford, Martial or Firmino & that's the truth.

That's why I believe that we will see a better improvement if we start playing actual goalscorers because we need them just as badly as Firmino did.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I just love how people keep trying to change the narrative as to what his role is. First if was "He isn't a winger he's a striker" and then "he isn't a proper striker he's a false 9" and even some suggesting he might actually be a 10. Constant excuses for a guy who is 24 and has played nearly 200 games for the club. The fact is his showing against Everton is usually the norm which is frustrating because he has some quality.

Comparisons to Firmino are wide of the mark IMO. Firmino is much better at operating between the lines, is more creative, and actually works off the ball. Martial dropping deep is no excuse for having no presence in the box, Rooney did it all the time and was always arriving into the area and attacking the ball and there's no reason Martial shouldn't be either.

When he does the exact same thing as a 10 then it will circle back to he needs to be on the wing or up front but with different players around him. The exact same thing we saw with Rooney in his last few seasons, there's always some excuse and it's always someone else's fault despite the one consistent factor in it all being the player himself.

 

[Isotope]

It was about his consistency though? Nani was complained about that not his work rate. Nani apart from a season or 2 was never consistent and that was whilst playing with players like Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, Valencia, Berbatov, Van Persie, Vidic, Ferdinand.

Martial's work rate would get him 3-5 more goals more a season with this current squad playing tactics that don't suit him.

Yeh. Consistency was an issue but like you said, he was compared to world class players. I don't know how he played after United, though, when with lesser teams.

 

[Andrew Richmond]

Martial’s performances overall since joining us in 2015 just haven’t matched his obvious potential.

While he has enjoyed good spells here and there he hasn’t achieved anywhere the consistency his obvious talent warrants which is disappointing particularly given his wages are those of an elite level player.

How long does the club persist with Anthony Martial if he does not develop his game to a higher more consistent level in the next season or two.

 

[roonster09]

But that still doesn't hide the fact that James isnt playing like Salah even if Martial is a less hard working firmino does it?

It's the poor tactics.

Daniel James crosses means absolutely nothing for Rashford, Martial or Firmino & that's the truth.

That's why I believe that we will see a better improvement if we start playing actual goalscorers because we need them just as badly as Firmino did.

It's not Jame's mistake that Martial won't sprint to get to the end of crosses. I don't know why Firmino is discussed (haven't checked all the posts) but if we compare to Liverpool, they play crosses to the space behind defense and attackers attack them. In our case, Rashford makes the sprint and usually reaches the box, on the other hand Martial plays nice pass and don't put the same effort.

Solution for that is not to drop player like James, Martial should step up and start obsessing with goals. Ultimately that's how 9s are rated.

I just find it weird that few blame James to defend Martial. Playing Greenwood suddenly won't make Martial goal hungry or bust a gut to reach the end of attacking moves.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I've seen some people complain about the excuses made for Martial regarding him not playing his best position. Well if you were a club looking to buy Martial where would you play him?

 

[Kostur]

It's not Jame's mistake that Martial won't sprint to get to the end of crosses. I don't know why Firmino is discussed (haven't checked all the posts) but if we compare to Liverpool, they play crosses to the space behind defense and attackers attack them. In our case, Rashford makes the sprint and usually reaches the box, on the other hand Martial plays nice pass and don't put the same effort.

Solution for that is not to drop player like James, Martial should step up and start obsessing with goals. Ultimately that's how 9s are rated.

I just find it weird that few blame James to defend Martial. Playing Greenwood suddenly won't make Martial goal hungry or bust a gut to reach the end of attacking moves.

That has always been the case with him though and people who are his ardent defenders. It's literally everybody's fault but his. Rashford taking his position, him playing on the right side, him playing on the left side rather than #9, him playing #9 now apparently instead of some type of a #10, Zlatan slowing him down, Lukaku being a donkey, midfield not good enough, wingbacks not being good enough, Mourinho forcing him to track back on the wing, Mourinho asking him to stay in the box instead of dropping deeper, Mourinho asking him to drop deeper instead of making him stay in the box, taking the #9 shirt from him, people not playing it to his foot but asking him for some unrealistic runs, etc., etc.

I've said it before that once he stops scoring goals at #9 people will say that he needs some other position, we've indeed reached full circle now. It's pretty much rinse repeat every single year, sometimes we'll get some new excuses depending on the manager in charge. It seems that we've got a player on our hands around whom we should be building the team but only, and only, if he plays in his best position. Funnily enough nobody can really put their finger on what his optimal position is for longer than a couple of months, which only shows how absurd the whole thing is (there's another who 'suffers' from the same type of discussion, whether he should play as a #8, as a left midfielder, as a #10 and so on).

I'd genuinely love people to point out what one aspect of his game Martial has taken up a notch since he's been signed by us. I can tell you how Rashford has developed, which aspects of his game he's added, what he's changed, you can see that start from such banal things as his free kicks. Name one thing Martial has tangibly improved. Good luck.

 

[roonster09]

That has always been the case with him though and people who are his ardent defenders. It's literally everybody's fault but his. Rashford taking his position, him playing on the right side, him playing on the left side rather than #9, him playing #9 now apparently instead of some type of a #10, Zlatan slowing him down, Lukaku being a donkey, midfield not good enough, wingbacks not being good enough, Mourinho forcing him to track back on the wing, Mourinho asking him to stay in the box instead of dropping deeper, Mourinho asking him to drop deeper instead of making him stay in the box, taking the #9 shirt from him, people not playing it to his foot but asking him for some unrealistic runs, etc., etc.

I've said it before that once he stops scoring goals at #9 people will say that he needs some other position, we've indeed reached full circle now. It's pretty much rinse repeat every single year, sometimes we'll get some new excuses depending on the manager in charge. It seems that we've got a player on our hands around whom we should be building the team but only, and only, if he plays in his best position. Funnily enough nobody can really put their finger on what his optimal position is for longer than a couple of months, which only shows how absurd the whole thing is (there's another who 'suffers' from the same type of discussion, whether he should play as a #8, as a left midfielder, as a #10 and so on).

I'd genuinely love people to point out what one aspect of his game Martial has taken up a notch since he's been signed by us. I can tell you how Rashford has developed, which aspects of his game he's added, what he's changed, you can see that start from such banal things as his free kicks. Name one thing Martial has tangibly improved. Good luck.

It's bizarre that one of our better player is blamed for Martial not putting effort to reach the box. I mean any manager would love to see players playing early crosses but somehow he shouldn't do that.

I even remember posts saying James only looks for Rashford and ignores Marital when it was so obvious that Rashford was in better position. I mean how hard is it to say player should improve if he isn't playing well and praise the player when he does well. Twisting everything just to suit their initial judgement is just tedious.

 

[NoPace]

2 headed goals in 124 Prem appearances is really something.

If we believe in him then we should spend big money elsewhere and sign a striker who can play against defences sitting deep, he can't keep starting matches against teams trying to stifle us where there's no space in behind.

 

[11101]

The comparison with Firmino is apt. In the attacking third you could freeze frame the match at any point, look at the ball, and Firmino will be somewhere nearby. Martial would be nowhere near.

Maybe in a possession based team he would work better but in a high energy counter attack like ours we need a centre forward who is everywhere.

 

[NoPace]

I could see him being like Immobile and getting in the right system where he can be one of 2 up front and really thriving. Like if he was at Wolves playing Jota's role alongside Jimenez I think he'd do quite well.

 

[tenpoless]

I could see him being like Immobile and getting in the right system where he can be one of 2 up front and really thriving. Like if he was at Wolves playing Jota's role alongside Jimenez I think he'd do quite well.

Yes sometimes He can be.

 

[TsuWave]

Good read:

 

[He'sRaldo]

I just find it weird that few blame James to defend Martial. Playing Greenwood suddenly won't make Martial goal hungry or bust a gut to reach the end of attacking moves.

Don't see it as blame/ defend.

The issue is basically that James on the RW and Martial have not been the best fit. In fact, I also think James hasn't been a good fit for Rashford as well. That's it. Nothing about blaming or defending, and I've said the same some time before in James' thread that if he was left-footed our attack would be so much better IMO.

 

[roonster09]

Don't see it as blame/ defend.

The issue is basically that James on the RW and Martial have not been the best fit. In fact, I also think James hasn't been a good fit for Rashford as well. That's it. Nothing about blaming or defending, and I've said the same some time before in james thread that if he was left-footed our attack would be so much better IMO.

James is a good fit, he offers width and pace on the wings and also creates chances. More often than not, teams are scared of his pace, which makes them shaky as they can't leave the space behind.

Considering how poor our FBs are when it comes to attacking, playing right footed player on right winger makes lot of sense.

James, Rashford and Martial played well many times, they are still inconsistent and that's because of their age.

 

[Bebestation]

Don't see it as blame/ defend.

The issue is basically that James on the RW and Martial have not been the best fit. In fact, I also think James hasn't been a good fit for Rashford as well. That's it. Nothing about blaming or defending, and I've said the same some time before in james thread that if he was left-footed our attack would be so much better IMO.

Bingo.

I think ultimately some people see football this way and some people don't. Whether it's right or not is purely a matter of perception.

You have people complaining that Martial defenders are trying to defend him by saying that Martial isn't a striker by saying he is a False 9 when that isn't changing his position or making any excuses at him, the same way it's okay for James not to score for many games on the right hand side as a traditional wider winger putting crosses in to the box rather than maybe drawing it back like Liverpool do - yet if he played on the left hand side you would suddenly see a more inverted forward who should and would be getting goals and then be in competition with Rashford.

As a false 9 Martial helps the flow of the team & whether people agree with firmino type comparisons - this has been said before the season had started whilst many of the same people had been wanting Rashford to play on the left instead and Greenwood on the right to get that goalscorers ability from our attacking line whilst Martial has the ability to keep the central defence 'Busy'.

I want Haaland here because I actually think more than just competition that there is a good opportunity of Rashford & Haaland playing in a strikers partnership and Martial playing behind them. I think Haaland as a centralised striker having to play of Daniel James crossing on the RW and Rashford playing as a inverted LW isn't going to be good enough to be our MAIN attacking output tactic & more as our plan B.

 

[He'sRaldo]

James is a good fit, he offers width and pace on the wings and also creates chances. More often than not, teams are scared of his pace, which makes them shaky as they can't leave the space behind.

Considering how poor our FBs are when it comes to attacking, playing right footed player on right winger makes lot of sense.

James, Rashford and Martial played well many times, they are still inconsistent and that's because of their age.

It's to James' credit that he's performed so well on the right because he's a good player, and if you put him on the left he'll be even better as that's his natural position.

The problem is his good performances aren't in sync with the other forwards, so even if he performs well he doesn't always get something out of it. For instance, see Greenwood's goal against Everton. The pass James played to Greenwood from the left would be much harder for him to pull off on the right, where he'd be limited to crossing. If he was left-footed (or so brilliant technically that it doesn't matter), he'd be able to link up and be more in sync with the other forwards from the right, but unfortunately he isn't.

So even though James himself is a good individual player, him being right-footed on the right limits his game somewhat. I'll never criticize James because I think he's doing very well to make do, but ultimately we'll need to get a better plan for the right than James crossing.

 

[roonster09]

It's to James' credit that he's performed so well on the right because he's a good player, and if you put him on the left he'll be even better as that's his natural position.

The problem is his good performances aren't in sync with the other forwards, so even if he performs well he doesn't always get something out of it. For instance, see Greenwood's goal against Everton. The pass James played to Greenwood from the left would be much harder for him to pull off on the right, where he'd be limited to crossing. If he was left-footed (or so brilliant technically that it doesn't matter), he'd be able to link up and be more in sync with the other forwards from the right, but unfortunately he isn't.

So even though James himself is a good individual player, him being right-footed on the right limits his game somewhat. I'll never criticize James because I think he's doing very well to make do, but ultimately we'll need to get a better plan for the right than James crossing.

James is in sync with others, if Martial is struggling then he should step up. James is picking up Rashford's runs so easily from right midfield, he is linking up well with Martial and even makes the runs where our midfielders picks him easily.

Greenwood example shows the limitations of Martial. Greenwood played the pass, carried on making the run and took very good position, this is something Martial lacks. He makes the pass and then more often than not, he just waits for others to finish the chance.He lacks that urgency and hunger for goals.

If we take 1 incidents in isolation then if James was left footed player, he wouldn't have created goal vs Liverpool, Norwich or created plenty of chances with his direct runs and crosses/cutbacks. There are pros and cons in playing right footed right winger, right now Rashford is our best player, so James as a RW is a good option.

Like I said, this discussion on James is weird, he is going well and he is playing well with others too. I didn't see problem with Martial except couple of games but if he is really struggling then he will make way for Greenwood.

 

[romufc]

James is in sync with others, if Martial is struggling then he should step up. James is picking up Rashford's runs so easily from right midfield, he is linking up well with Martial and even makes the runs where our midfielders picks him easily.

Greenwood example shows the limitations of Martial. Greenwood played the pass, carried on making the run and took very good position, this is something Martial lacks. He makes the pass and then more often than not, he just waits for others to finish the chance.He lacks that urgency and hunger for goals.

If we take 1 incidents in isolation then if James was left footed player, he wouldn't have created goal vs Liverpool, Norwich or created plenty of chances with his direct runs and crosses/cutbacks. There are pros and cons in playing right footed right winger, right now Rashford is our best player, so James as a RW is a good option.

Like I said, this discussion on James is weird, he is going well and he is playing well with others too. I didn't see problem with Martial except couple of games but if he is really struggling then he will make way for Greenwood.

I think it comes down to lack of movement. Martial needs to do alot more upfront to create space. It doesn't matter if our winger is left or right footed because if Martial made movements to get away from the defender then he would receive the ball.

Also, Martial and Rashford should know what James is going to do because he does it consistently. By this I mean he will run down the wing and whip a low cross, why is no one gambling at the near post?

 

[roonster09]

I think it comes down to lack of movement. Martial needs to do alot more upfront to create space. It doesn't matter if our winger is left or right footed because if Martial made movements to get away from the defender then he would receive the ball.

Also, Martial and Rashford should know what James is going to do because he does it consistently. By this I mean he will run down the wing and whip a low cross, why is no one gambling at the near post?

That's also very basic and effective tactic that's done by every top team. Instead of blaming players for not making those runs, we have posters who says James is out of sync or that James is somehow restricting Martial.

 

[He'sRaldo]

James is in sync with others, if Martial is struggling then he should step up.

How many of James crosses have been missed by both Martial and Rashford now? At first I was harsh on both of them especially Rashford, but now I'm starting to think maybe they just don't fit together. On the other hand we see Rashford (and James playing LW) easily assisting Greenwood because he plays more like a forward than a winger.

It's only when James pulls off a brilliant pass that Rashford gets on the end of it. The crosses are almost of no use to them, maybe because that's not their type of assist; the same way a lofted lob into the box wouldn't benefit any of them because they're not that type of forward.

I do however think that eventually they'll need to work on getting on the end of those crosses, but for now it doesn't seem to be working that well.

 

[roonster09]

How many of James crosses have been missed by both Martial and Rashford now? At first I was harsh on both of them especially Rashford, but now I'm starting to think maybe they just don't fit together. On the other hand we see Rashford (and James playing LW) easily assisting Greenwood because he plays more like a forward than a winger.

It's only when James pulls off a brilliant pass that Rashford gets on the end of it. The crosses are almost of no use to them, maybe because that's not their type of assist; the same way a lofted lob into the box wouldn't benefit any of them because they're not that type of forward.

I do however think that eventually they'll need to work on getting on the end of those crosses, but for now it doesn't seem to be working that well.

Why? Maybe they should start working on their movement and get to end of those crosses.

How many crosses are missed? I don't have the count but there are enough to win most games, where James whips the ball on the ground and across the goal with no one making the run. Kind of crosses/passes that's a striker's dream.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Why? Maybe they should start working on their movement and get to end of those crosses.

How many crosses are missed? I don't have the count but there are enough to win most games, where James whips the ball on the ground and across the goal with no one making the run. Kind of crosses/passes that's a striker's dream.

That is my point. Give Martial and Rashford a through ball or a layoff and they'll run every time to get on the end of it. But right now they seem to struggle with crosses, which of course they can improve. But for now, they're not linking up well with James because most of what he offers in end product is crosses, not goals or through passes. Whereas if Greenwood played more and cut in and played passes and through balls for them, they'd score more.

As for the bolded, honestly man, at the beginning especially when Rashford was playing striker I was so mad at him for not attacking those crosses and we'd end up scoring only one goal. I couldn't understand it. He's playing well now and scoring but he's still not attacking them, so I'm hoping it's some kind of compatibility issue which can be solved with time and experience.

 

[Jonno]

Yes. Couldn't you say the same for the whole team? You could argue the whole team only fancies certain types of games. Why is Martial singled out?

Martial is our most senior striker & came in for big money. 2020 will be his 6th year here and he's not done enough to be Manchester United's main striker.

He has a lot of talent, bags of it. He scores good goals. He's one of the most talented players in the squad, but I don't see the off the ball movement, the penetrating runs, showing for the ball, I don't see any presence in the box. Not just against Everton but against a lot of teams that sit deep. If you're so defensive of him, then why isn't he scoring enough goals year after year?

You have to look at the bigger picture. The whole team was out of sorts vs Everton. What did Rashford, James & Lingard do? Saying that he is only suited to counter-attacking games is nonsense. He is the one player we have who is capable of bringing others into play. His traits aren't that of a counter-attacking player at all.

The whole team was out of sorts? We had 25+ attempts on Everton's goal, our style of play was correct, we made chances, we couldn't finish them. Martial is our number 9 and he didn't manufacture any golden opportunities. He needs to move better off the ball, get into better positions. He's our main striker. He goes missing in the box.

You don't think the way the team is set-up only caters to counter-attacking games where we transition quickly? You don't think that the fact that there's a black hole in the middle of the final third during our build-up play has a major effect in these types of games?

You're making excuses for supposedly one of the top talents in world football. He's been here 5 years. He's played 2-3 different set ups. He's struggled in all of them, apart from his breakthrough season. He's not an 18 year old, breaking into the first team, he's an international striker with bags of experience and he doesn't move into good areas when its a compact, low block. The top top strikers in world football, smell the danger and make the necessary movement to get there every time one of their midfielders picks up the ball.

For example - Dan James gets the ball, steams down the wing at full tilt, beats his defender, puts the ball in to a "tap-in" area in the box, and where's our number 9? Jogging into the box, marked, 10 yards behind.

Thats not good enough. I bet Kane, Salah, Mane, Aguero, Lewandowski, etc, etc, etc get there in time because they can smell the danger. Thats why they score bucketloads and they're regarded as the best strikers in the world. Martial is not in that bracket, nor is he actively doing the right things to be in that bracket. Why? He is not consistent enough. His consistency is that of a mid-table premier league club. They have strikers scoring quality goals, 10-15 goals in all competitions each season, and that's what he's offering us.

Have you seen the way we attack? We attack in a semi-circle from Fred/McT to Rashford/James, rinse/repeat. Very rarely through the middle at all. I think people need to focus on that major issue personally.

Funny that, because Rashford finds ways to score goals no matter how we play, Mason Greenwood has the same number of goals as Martial and has barely played, barely started. He's more direct, more clinical and makes better movement.

I'm not saying Martial doesn't have the tools required to be a top level world class striker, he does. He's incredibly talented, he can be our best player. But he doesn't seem to have the drive to get there. His former manager at Monaco commented on his persona, LVG did, Mourinho did, and now Mason Greenwood is about to take his place in the first team under Ole, despite us selling Lukaku, his seemingly biggest threat, and moving Rashford on to the left, his other big threat.

I feel Martial will be sold in the next 2 years.

 

[roonster09]

That is my point. Give Martial and Rashford a through ball and they'll run every time to get on the end of it. But right now they seem to struggle with crosses, which of course they can improve. But for now, they're not linking up well with James because most of what he offers in end product is crosses, not goals or through passes. Whereas if Greenwood played more and cut in and played passes and through balls for them, they'd score more.

As for the bolded, honestly man, at the beginning especially when Rashford was playing striker I was so mad at him for not attacking those crosses. I couldn't understand it. He's playing well now and scoring but he's still not attacking them, so I'm hoping it's some kind of compatibility issue which can be solved with time and experience.

How can left footed right winger can play through ball to Martial and Rashford? If anything, James has done it few times with over the top passes and again with Rashford alone making the run.

Rashford has no problem with linking up with James, I mean they are so good together that we have seen posts that James is ignoring Martial and passing only to Rashford.

With your every post, you are just clubbing Rashford and Martial together, like how others used to club Smalling and Jones together. Rashford has no problem linking up with James, in fact whenever James makes the run, more often than not, it's Rashford who makes the sprint and gets to end of the chances.

It's Martial who should step up and it has nothing to do with James and Rashford. It's on Martial.

 

[He'sRaldo]

With your every post, you are just clubbing Rashford and Martial together, like how others used to club Smalling and Jones together. Rashford has no problem linking up with James, in fact whenever James makes the run, more often than not, it's Rashford who makes the sprint and gets to end of the chances.

I'm doing that with regards to the type of assists they like, and the type of assists James provides. If you notice, Martial also drops deep and links up with James sending him through most times. But that's not the type of link up I'm talking about. I'm talking about the final ball. From what I've seen neither are natural at attacking crosses, which is what James provides.

How can left footed right winger can play through ball to Martial and Rashford? If anything, James has done it few times with over the top passes and again with Rashford alone making the run.

And that's why I said previously those passes are to James credit because they were brilliant passes which would be a lot easier if he was cutting in on his left, but he pulled it off on his right.

It's Martial who should step up and it has nothing to do with James and Rashford. It's on Martial.

When Rashford was playing up top as a focal point I, along with everyone else, was saying he needs to step up and he's performing so badly. Now that he doesn't need to worry about being the focal point he's playing better and we realize it was never about stepping up but the right fit. The same is true for Martial. Funny enough, both situations involve complaining about Dan James crosses not being attacked; you can see why I think there's a stylistic mismatch there.

 

[James Ward]

Not going to win the league or get into the top four with Martial in the team any time soon. Seriously though compare him to any of City's, Liverpool or Spurs attacking players, even Vardy.

He is a mile behind. Its time to get rid, but I can say that about nearly the whole first team 11.

 

[roonster09]

I'm doing that with regards to the type of assists they like, and the type of assists James provides. If you notice, Martial also drops deep and links up with James sending him through most times. But that's not the type of link up I'm talking about. I'm talking about the final ball. from what I've seen neither are natural at attacking crosses, which is what James provides.

How do you know what kind of assists they like? Like I said, you are looking for excuses now. It's not as if James's crosses are for headers, they are on the ground which are easier to score.

And that's why I said previously those passes are to James credit because they were brilliant passes which would be a lot easier if he was cutting in on his left, but he pulled it off on his right.

Not sure how left footed players can play it easier, anyways since we agree here, there is no point which is easier as long as player is capable of playing it.

When Rashford was playing up top as a focal point I, along with everyone else, was saying he needs to step up and he's performing so badly. Now that he doesn't need to worry about being the focal point he's playing better and we realize it was never about stepping up but the right fit. The same is true for Martial. Funny enough, both situations involve complaining about Dan James crosses not being attacked; you can see why I think there's a stylistic mismatch there.

No, it's not stylistic mismatch. Complains on Rashford was his link up play was poor and he struggled with back to goal. Rashford struggled as he is LW than CF, Martial is CF.

Even if we assume that problem was not attacking James' crosses, then they should start attacking it, instead of complaining not to put crosses.

Tbh I didn't see any stylistic mismatch between Rashford and James, in fact I don't see problem with James and Martial too. It's just that when Martial drops deep and plays the pass, he doesn't makes the run to get into goal scoring position. These 3 played probably our best attacking football since SAF retired. It was only when people started to question Martial's performance, people who wants to defend Martial just looked for one more excuse and this time it was James.

 

[He'sRaldo]

How do you know what kind of assists they like? Like I said, you are looking for excuses now. It's not as if James's crosses are for headers, they are on the ground which are easier to score.

From the way they play, and the goals they score generally. For instance, they most likely won't like high crosses because they don't score headers very often. Whereas they love through balls, balls into space, and give and go's. That's their profile as forwards.

Tbh I didn't see any stylistic mismatch between Rashford and James, in fact I don't see problem with James and Martial too. It's just that when Martial drops deep and plays the pass, he doesn't makes the run to get into goal scoring position. These 3 played probably our best attacking football since SAF retired. It was only when people started to question Martial's performance, people who wants to defend Martial just looked for one more excuse and this time it was James.

And here's where we can analyze a bit more. Let's take a scenario where Greenwood has Dan James' pace. Once Martial plays that pass, Greenwood is most likely off to try and cut in and shoot, and if he can't shoot, he'll try and find Rashford and play a pass inside. When Martial plays the pass to Dan James, most likely he'll run down the line and cross it.

In the first scenario, Greenwood offers a direct goal threat, whereas Dan James needs someone else to both put him through and be the goal threat. That's where the mismatch is with Martial. And since James can't come inside and make plays from the right, Martial has to be the one to come deep most times, so it's not like they can occasionally switch roles within a match.

 

[roonster09]

From the way they play, and the goals they score generally. For instance, they most likely won't like high crosses because they don't score headers very often.

And how many times have they scored from through passes? In any case, we don't play any crosses to head the ball, most of them are on the ground and there is no excuse not to attack them or make the most basic runs.

And here's where we can analyze a bit more. Let's take a scenario where Greenwood has Dan James' pace. Once Martial plays that pass, Greenwood is most likely off to try and cut in and shoot, and if he can't shoot, he'll try and find Rashford and play a pass inside. When Martial plays the pass to Dan James, most likely he'll run down the line and cross it.

In the first scenario, Greenwood offers a direct goal threat, whereas Dan James needs someone else to both put him through and be the goal threat. That's where the mismatch is with Martial. And since James can't come inside and make plays from the right, Martial has to be the one to come deep most times.

So Greenwood doesn't have James' pace, I mean not many in the world have that pace. So what's the point of these hypothetical scenarios when we are talking about players in the current squad?

How about instead of looking for excuses, Martial makes effort to position himself better to receive those chances? I mean if we are going with hypothetical scenarios then we can also assume if we have someone like Auba leading the line, he will be converting those crosses into goals. So maybe it's Martial who is the misfit in the team.

Also Sterling played many games as right winger, didn't stop him from scoring and assisting. Same with Sane as left winger. Sancho is a right footed RW and he is scoring and assisting goals at insane level.

Going by your logic, we shouldn't sign Sancho as he won't be 'fit in' with Martial as he is fight footed right winger.

 

[He'sRaldo]

So Greenwood doesn't have James' pace, I mean not many in the world have that pace. So what's the point of these hypothetical scenarios when we are talking about players in the current squad?

How about instead of looking for excuses, Martial makes effort to position himself better to receive those chances? I mean if we are going with hypothetical scenarios then we can also assume if we have someone like Auba leading the line, he will be converting those crosses into goals. So maybe it's Martial who is the misfit in the team.

You're still getting hung up on "excuses". I told you previously no need to think in that manner. When you start thinking about blame, defend, excuses, etc. then it means your mind is most likely already set and we're just wasting our time here.

True, maybe Auba will be able to anticipate those crosses better and score more goals, but then again Auba requires massive help in the build up play, so we're back to the "Lukaku" problem again.

There are always pros and cons with players, it's up to us to decide if the pros outweigh the cons. In our case, we decided the cons of a poacher type outweighed his pros, and thus we're using a F9 type in Martial. Since we decided this, we need to figure out how to get the best out of such a player, and I'm not convinced crosses to the far post is it.

Also Sterling played many games as right winger, didn't stop him from scoring and assisting. Same with Sane as left winger. Sancho is a right footed RW and he is scoring and assisting goals at insane level.

Going by your logic, we shouldn't sign Sancho as he won't be 'fit in' with Martial as he is fight footed right winger.

I also said to you previously that if Dan James was technically brilliant then it wouldn't matter, as such players can move wherever they want on the field due to their excellent technique. You just mentioned 3 technically excellent wingers who's close control is such that they can cut in from both wings. If Dan James manages to develop that then, sure he could be a goal scorer. But all evidence thus far points to him sticking to the outside and crossing when on the RW.

Sancho would fit in as he's not limited by his technique wherever he plays.