[KennyBurner]

Bullshit, he had some nice interplay and got great flicks for other players who squandered their chances.

With Pogba back and if we get Dybala, I suspect we will look much more threatening, provided we don't play Mata and Matic anymore.

Clearly your one of the few who gets it. The guy had nothing to work with because the whole team couldn't even keep the ball. When he had it peirera would often lose it or not try and play the one two quickly. Not only that but when martial tries to press nobody else presses instantly which causes frustration to him. You cant expect him to constantly press when the people behind him are also sitting deep in midfield. People who watch the game attentively can see our whole team is always disjointed when trying to press. Some are moving and some are sitting back. That is a coaching problem that people need to stop blaming martial for and focus on Ole. It was an average performance from martial and thats all there is to say.

 

[KennyBurner]

Kane runs the channels and his hold up play is excellent both with his feet and when it's in the air, he is extremely challenging to handle as an allround no.9 and his movement is that of an out and out striker. An exceptional striker makes passes easy and good through their own movement and ability.

Spurs' midfield isn't all singing and dancing - we averaged almost identical key passes and shots per game, all in similar areas last year (inside the box, outside and inside 6 yard box), you can argue all day about the out and out quality of the play behind those statistics but really I think people are so quick to take personal responsibility from some players and project it onto scapegoats.

The creative quality of a team depends as much on the forwards & their movement/ability as it does on the midfielders as it does on the FBs as it does on the CBs as it does on the entire teams tactical set up.

martials hold up play is decent but we never get to experience it because we never get the ball forward in a composed manner. If certain midfielders like fred/pogba arent playing the best we can get is a lobbed pass from de gea to whoever is upfront. Spurs know how to find Kane without Lloris lobbing it every chance he gets. The fact is Kane would still struggle in this team because most of our players arent composed and live in fear. Ofcourse it doesn't hep that matic has regressed and cant even control simple passes without giving the ball away.

Does it not bother you that a bunch of italian farmers were able to control the game better than us? The problems isnt martials hold up play but the composure of our average player.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Clearly your one of the few who gets it. The guy had nothing to work with because the whole team couldn't even keep the ball. When he had it peirera would often lose it or not try and play the one two quickly. Not only that but when martial tries to press nobody else presses instantly which causes frustration to him. You cant expect him to constantly press when the people behind him are also sitting deep in midfield. People who watch the game attentively can see our whole team is always disjointed when trying to press. Some are moving and some are sitting back. That is a coaching problem that people need to stop blaming martial for and focus on Ole. It was an average performance from martial and thats all there is to say.

Only thing I could blame Ole for is team selection, if he starts Matic and Mata against Chelsea.

The system needs time to be fully integrated. You can't expect miracles but we are doing good enough so far this pre-season. The real part starts now though, so let's hope we go into the game with Chelsea and we thrash them!

 

[Duafc]

martials hold up play is decent but we never get to experience it because we never get the ball forward in a composed manner. If certain midfielders like fred/pogba arent playing the best we can get is a lobbed pass from de gea to whoever is upfront. Spurs know how to find Kane without Lloris lobbing it every chance he gets. The fact is Kane would still struggle in this team because most of our players arent composed and live in fear. Ofcourse it doesn't hep that matic has regressed and cant even control simple passes without giving the ball away.

Does it not bother you that a bunch of italian farmers were able to control the game better than us? The problems isnt martials hold up play but the composure of our average player.

His hold up play when the ball is to feet is largely good, in the air, or for loose balls it's non existent, which isn't a massive drama, that's not the kind of player he is, though it is a very helpful trait for a no.9.

It does bother me that they held onto it better than us, though farmers they aren't - they'd be a top half team in England certainly and finished 5th in Italy.. a place higher than us, albeit in a less competitive league! Similarly that's very much this AC team's style - they are technical and hold it well but lack creativity and pace outside of Suso and don't score enough goals. So whilst it was irritating it didn't really surprise me. I thought lots of players were off the boil today and the selection of Mata and Periera in a front 4 was less than ideal. Neither Matic or McTominay got very close to Suso which was concerning and generally we just looked a bit off the mark, as often is the case without Pogba.

I don't like this blame everyone behind him cop out though. I've already said when we have the right players playing the right way Martial looks great - the thing is it can't and won't always be that way, Martial does not warrant us setting up in such a way that all his strengths are catered to and all his failings covered, it would be awfully 1 dimensional. In those instances where it isn't all going swimmingly a more rounded no.9 can drag us up and away from that, Martial doesn't show me that very often and that's my concern!

I still think he's class I just think people are so happy to see him at no.9 finally (I share that happiness) that they are slightly losing the run of themselves in terms of how that will work out.

 

[Frank Grimes]

I'm so unimpressed with him whenever I watch him lately. We can do a lot better.

 

[WR10]

I know this is not talked about often and seems to be a bit taboo - but how’s Martial’s mental health? I can’t help but see him go through his phases of bipolar disorder. When manic he’s everywhere - he’s running off the ball, smiling, laughing - hungry smashing in goals. When he’s in a lul he just looks completely dejected. Not just technically not pulling off things but truly just widthdrawn emotionally, lacking any spark or desire.

Of course I don’t know the guy personally but we keep hearing ‘attitude’ being a fluctuating problem. I wonder how much mental health like that is looked at professionally in football, like they would a muscular problem - or if they just brush it under the rug as ‘attitude’

 

[KennyBurner]

His hold up play when the ball is to feet is largely good, in the air, or for loose balls it's non existent, which isn't a massive drama, that's not the kind of player he is, though it is a very helpful trait for a no.9.

It does bother me that they held onto it better than us, though farmers they aren't - they'd be a top half team in England certainly and finished 5th in Italy.. a place higher than us, albeit in a less competitive league! Similarly that's very much this AC team's style - they are technical and hold it well but lack creativity and pace outside of Suso and don't score enough goals. So whilst it was irritating it didn't really surprise me. I thought lots of players were off the boil today and the selection of Mata and Periera in a front 4 was less than ideal. Neither Matic or McTominay got very close to Suso which was concerning and generally we just looked a bit off the mark, as often is the case without Pogba.

I don't like this blame everyone behind him cop out though. I've already said when we have the right players playing the right way Martial looks great - the thing is it can't and won't always be that way, Martial does not warrant us setting up in such a way that all his strengths are catered to and all his failings covered, it would be awfully 1 dimensional. In those instances where it isn't all going swimmingly a more rounded no.9 can drag us up and away from that, Martial doesn't show me that very often and that's my concern!

I still think he's class I just think people are so happy to see him at no.9 finally (I share that happiness) that they are slightly losing the run of themselves in terms of how that will work out.

This too is my biggest concern. He gives up too easily. Its the difference between him and rashford. When our midfielders arent supporting him he often just fades and waits till they get their shit together. I dont know if any of our coaches ever point that out to him during player feedback?

Still I'm yet to fully dismiss him till we have a full 11 that can do basic footballing things right. The whole team is constantly disjointed and it affects each player. Also I dont think martial and rashford are as fluid together like him and mata are. This is crucial because thats more than half of our attack. Might just be me but I wonder if others feel the same?

 

[Renegade]

One of the highest earners in the league, needs to start performing like he is, him and Rashford both. These hot and cold so and so performances isn’t acceptable anymore really.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The game just passes him by.

He's the same player from 4 years ago. His short passing game is maddeningly poor too. He misplaces so many easy passes.

I'd sell him if given the chance.

 

[Kill 'em all]

The game just passes him by.

He's the same player from 4 years ago. His short passing game is maddeningly poor too. He misplaces so many easy passes.

I'd sell him if given the chance.

I actually feel that he has regressed. He often used to go past players with ease when we first got him. He doesn't do that as often.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I actually feel that he has regressed. He often used to go past players with ease when we first got him. He doesn't do that as often.

He definitely doesn't get past players like he used to. I feel like he's lost a teeny bit of pace.

He was a bit more explosive when he 1st joined us.

 

[DoomSlayer]

I actually feel that he has regressed. He often used to go past players with ease when we first got him. He doesn't do that as often.

Not regressed, but I think Martial stagnated and lost some of his sharpness under Mourinho and that's on the manager.

I think he will be one of the main players to benefit from the improved physical approach that Ole is implementing, it just takes time and fans are impatient after 6 years of our team underperforming.

 

[K13]

He definitely doesn't get past players like he used to. I feel like he's lost a teeny bit of pace.

He was a bit more explosive when he 1st joined us.

I have actually seen quite a few instances of his explosiveness in pre-season. A couple from the Spurs game are also in the highlights reel on the official Man Utd site including his goal where his footwork to remain on side I thought was exceptional. There was also a turn in Norway that left his defender treading water. We know what he is capable of from his Fulham goal last season.

When a youngster comes in they are very individual but as they develop their team skills they use some skills less and others more. I see a far more rounded team player now.

We don't really know what he has been asked to tactically do in these pre-season games beyond building an attacking relationship with Rashford and rotate more. These 2 players have everything to be top class and I love watching them play together. Really excited about how they develop. They have the right environment to grow and I think they both will be very good for us this season.

 

[Kevin]

How are other, let's use a lazy term, pro-Martial posters on here feeling about him right now? You can check my history, I seriously thought he was going to be a big star but even I am having my doubts. He has barely changed as a player compared to when he first burst on the scene. You could put that down to bad management (which I totally did, Mourinho handled him unfairly), but a part has to do with him as well surely?

I'm not so sure about him anymore.

 

[DoomSlayer]

How are other, let's use a lazy term, pro-Martial posters on here feeling about him right now? You can check my history, I seriously thought he was going to be a big star but even I am having my doubts. He has barely changed as a player compared to when he first burst on the scene. You could put that down to bad management (which I totally did, Mourinho handled him unfairly), but a part has to do with him as well surely?

I'm not so sure about him anymore.

We need to give time to Ole's approach and system to blossom, then we can properly evaluate the development of younger players. I think some people forget that how young Rashford and Martial still are.

And don't compare them to Lingard, they are already much better than him and can improve a lot more, we just need their partnership to click, they still lack that understanding between them because they have never consistently played with each other. Still, the interchanging of positions is already great.

 

[Jacob]

Players that have polarized fanbases are less likely to succeed - change my mind.

 

[Jacob]

Should not be a starter imo. Curious to know what top clubs could afford to start him.

 

[sillwuka]

My main concern is our goalscoring ability, as much as we criticise Lukaku for his style of play, he will guarantee you 20 goals a season. Can you see realistically see Martial providing that many? I bloody hope so anyway..

He hasn't kicked on how I would have hoped but hopefully this central role will be the catalyst. He will now be playing his preferred position and HAS to be be scoring for us, there are no excuses now.

If we persist with Anthony down the middle rotating with Rashford I feel that we desperately need Dybala due to his ability to score outside the box.

 

[K13]

How are other, let's use a lazy term, pro-Martial posters on here feeling about him right now? You can check my history, I seriously thought he was going to be a big star but even I am having my doubts. He has barely changed as a player compared to when he first burst on the scene. You could put that down to bad management (which I totally did, Mourinho handled him unfairly), but a part has to do with him as well surely?

I'm not so sure about him anymore.

I think he has developed his all round team game. His link up play and awareness of creating space for others is far better.

So personally I see a far better team player than the one who arrived here. So being a small cog in the overall structure to me is far better than scoring the odd individual solo goal.

 

[K13]

Players that have polarized fanbases are less likely to succeed - change my mind.

I have been around a long time and still remember similar concerns for Whiteside, Giggs and Ronaldo. Even Beckham many were unsure of until he returned from his loan move. Scholes took an age to come through whereas Butt was a regular at 18 and Keane's midfield partner. Scholes was tried in the no 10 position and various others until he became settled in a midfield 2.

Very talented players have enormous expectations but they all take different paths to reach their potential. Martial and Rashford are still in that curve and looking very promising for this season. I think both will make it but it can easily go either way.

 

[VP89]

Yeah, I'm struggling to see what additional threat he brings ahead of Lukaku or even Sanchez. But the season kicks off next week so let's see how he really goes from there.

 

[acnumber9]

but a part has to do with him as well surely?

A part has to be down to the individual? Don’t be ridiculous. It’s all down to every player he plays with and every manager or coach he’s ever had. Why should he have to take responsibility for himself?

 

[Litch]

I have been around a long time and still remember similar concerns for Whiteside, Giggs and Ronaldo. Even Beckham many were unsure of until he returned from his loan move. Scholes took an age to come through whereas Butt was a regular at 18 and Keane's midfield partner. Scholes was tried in the no 10 position and various others until he became settled in a midfield 2.

Very talented players have enormous expectations but they all take different paths to reach their potential. Martial and Rashford are still in that curve and looking very promising for this season. I think both will make it but it can easily go either way.

Absolutely agree. Fans view things very different through the lens of failure especially when they only remember us winning. Can you believe that we sold Beckham, RVN and Stam when they were still at the top of their game? Can you imagine those 3 players in this Utd team? I guess Rashford and Martial back then would be starting for the bench and fans could be patient with them as their development had no impact on whether we won or not. We now have players in most positions than in any of the other decades probably wouldn't have signed and certainly wouldn't be starting.

 

[Grande]

Absolutely agree. Fans view things very different through the lens of failure especially when they only remember us winning. Can you believe that we sold Beckham, RVN and Stam when they were still at the top of their game? Can you imagine those 3 players in this Utd team? I guess Rashford and Martial back then would be starting for the bench and fans could be patient with them as their development had no impact on whether we won or not. We now have players in most positions than in any of the other decades probably wouldn't have signed and certainly wouldn't be starting.

I think it’s fair to say all three of those players had already started a downwards trajectory, and certainly Ferguson thought so. Stam is the only one who played close to his best after getting sold, Fergie later admitted it was a rash call I believe. Van Nistlerooij and Beckham had both had so so seasons, and though both did well at Real Madrid, neither were close to their peaks IMO. Fergie would often keep older players around for continuity, but if he felt they wouldn’t handle well playing support roles, or would have detrimental influence on the squad, they’d be gone before you could say breakfast. Much like Lukaku now.

That said, I agree with your main points.

 

[K13]

Absolutely agree. Fans view things very different through the lens of failure especially when they only remember us winning. Can you believe that we sold Beckham, RVN and Stam when they were still at the top of their game? Can you imagine those 3 players in this Utd team? I guess Rashford and Martial back then would be starting for the bench and fans could be patient with them as their development had no impact on whether we won or not. We now have players in most positions than in any of the other decades probably wouldn't have signed and certainly wouldn't be starting.

Sadly I think RVN had to go because there were problems between him and Ronaldo. Fantastic player though and agree that would have been great to keep him.

Beckham - his last few months were very difficult. He was every where in the Greek game for England but really physically off the boil for us and by the arsenal game Sir Alex had seen enough. He tried to reason with him but Becks thought he was doing OK. Ole took his RM slot for a few games and did really well and Becks came on against RM and was magnificent because he wanted to join them. I can understand him going as well.

Stam ... big mistake but even Sir Alex has said that.

I think both Martial and Rashford would have thrived under Sir Alex and both would be further ahead than they are now. Super talents the pair of them.

 

[Litch]

I think it’s fair to say all three of those players had already started a downwards trajectory, and certainly Ferguson thought so. Stam is the only one who played close to his best after getting sold, Fergie later admitted it was a rash call I believe. Van Nistlerooij and Beckham had both had so so seasons, and though both did well at Real Madrid, neither were close to their peaks IMO. Fergie would often keep older players around for continuity, but if he felt they wouldn’t handle well playing support roles, or would have detrimental influence on the squad, they’d be gone before you could say breakfast. Much like Lukaku now.

That said, I agree with your main points.

The drop off wasn't that much but point taken and I guess our team was of the ability that arguably Real was a step down to playing here at that time.

 

[Litch]

Sadly I think RVN had to go because there were problems between him and Ronaldo. Fantastic player though and agree that would have been great to keep him.

Beckham - his last few months were very difficult. He was every where in the Greek game for England but really physically off the boil for us and by the arsenal game Sir Alex had seen enough. He tried to reason with him but Becks thought he was doing OK. Ole took his RM slot for a few games and did really well and Becks came on against RM and was magnificent because he wanted to join them. I can understand him going as well.

Stam ... big mistake but even Sir Alex has said that.

I think both Martial and Rashford would have thrived under Sir Alex and both would be further ahead than they are now. Super talents the pair of them.

Agree. Can you believe we were in a position to let talent go for non football reasons. I guess I was saying that as talented as they are, some fans expectations are based on what's gone before them and in reality they may well be in the future but I'm not sure in the need for success from some fans, they will be given the time. Sadly I think it might be the same for Ole too.

 

[Adam-Utd]

He definitely doesn't get past players like he used to. I feel like he's lost a teeny bit of pace.

He was a bit more explosive when he 1st joined us.

I think it’s more his style has changed.

He used to get the ball then accelerate quickly with little steps and then burst passed the defender. Now he seems to stop the ball and look to play a 1-2 before running.

I’d like him to mix it up with both, he doesn’t seem to like attacking 1v1 like he used to.

 

[DWelbz19]

How are other, let's use a lazy term, pro-Martial posters on here feeling about him right now? You can check my history, I seriously thought he was going to be a big star but even I am having my doubts. He has barely changed as a player compared to when he first burst on the scene. You could put that down to bad management (which I totally did, Mourinho handled him unfairly), but a part has to do with him as well surely?

I'm not so sure about him anymore.

I think he’s ultimately, for want of a better word, a bit of a dim person. Combine this with his lack of drive, and you can see how it reflects in his play. Coasts by on his natural ability.

I’m still a huge fan, but he’s running out of time for it all to come together.

 

[BusbyMalone]

One of his non-event games yesterday. The game passes on by and he's there spectating it. He just day dreams through the match with the occasional burst of energy here and there. He's such an infuriating player because you know how talented he is, but his application is awful sometimes.

Also, his short range passing needs to improve dramatically.

 

[Snuffkin]

One of his non-event games yesterday. The game passes on by and he's there spectating it. He just day dreams through the match with the occasional burst of energy here and there. He's such an infuriating player because you know how talented he is, but his application is awful sometimes.

Also, his short range passing needs to improve dramatically.

Yes he was terrible. I mean there is having a bad game but yesterday he wasn't even having a game.

 

[K13]

Agree. Can you believe we were in a position to let talent go for non football reasons. I guess I was saying that as talented as they are, some fans expectations are based on what's gone before them and in reality they may well be in the future but I'm not sure in the need for success from some fans, they will be given the time. Sadly I think it might be the same for Ole too.

We have traditionally always given manager's time. In the 2 decades pre Sir Alex we had 4. David Moyes sacking was a bit of a shock as I expected him to be given time but the signings were daft as well - instant success. That could be down to the new regime behind the scenes as well.

Hopefully we have learn't from the last 6 years that you need patience with players and managers. I am sure if we do that we will be in good shape again. I do think Martial and Rashford will be top notch this season.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Yes he was terrible. I mean there is having a bad game but yesterday he wasn't even having a game.

All too often, unfortunately. Just passes him by.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Yes he was terrible. I mean there is having a bad game but yesterday he wasn't even having a game.

Seriously what game were you guys watching? Created the space for Rashford to get his shot off, got an assist not to mention the numerous runs he made and positioning himself for the press. Plus numerous almost moments from flicks and passes that opened Milan up.

People need to actually watch football and think about what is going on as a whole instead of just posting nonsense.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Very high and mighty - I'll rewatch it because I did not see those movements and I'm quite sure I know the difference between a clever movement and just running in behind and offside.

I think Martial's movement has been a key issue since his second season here - I think throwing him at no.9 and saying he made incisive, but unseen 10 yard runs all day to no avail due to his silly teammates is very very forgiving.

Of our preseason I think Greenwood has shown himself to be a very intelligent runner off the ball in a way that I wish both Martial & Rashford replicated.

Equally, my initial point was as much about his movement in the press - which whilst better in the way he's positioning himself and cutting off passing lanes, still leaves a lot to be desired - AC's cbs were under zero pressure that entire first half whilst on the ball, except for when Periera or a midfielder stepped out.

Totally agree on getting across the front post - thats a problem for both Martial and Rashford, neither are natural poachers and when the ball is wide they are very passive in their runs - Greenwood (again) scored a goal in preseason that neither would in a month of Sundays. Dan James could find that very frustrating if our form so far is anything to go by!

Also for anyone else I don't want to get down on Martial, the set up we are gearing towards fills me with positivity, I just think Ole is still a few players short and we may rely too heavily on players that aren't as well suited to the way we want to play this year.

There are a lot of flaws in Martial's game but pressing is something I'd forgive for Martial, we aren't a complete pressing unit yet and it's pointless to waste energy to press a CB when your teammates aren't cutting out passing lanes/pressing other players, a lone striker running at a defender will get easily passed around.

 

[Duafc]

Seriously what game were you guys watching? Created the space for Rashford to get his shot off, got an assist not to mention the numerous runs he made and positioning himself for the press. Plus numerous almost moments from flicks and passes that opened Milan up.

People need to actually watch football and think about what is going on as a whole instead of just posting nonsense.

I've watched that back and I think if you're heralding those things as a good game the bar is just so low - to take the high road and accuse people of not being able to 'watch football' and talking nonsense is just laughably egotistical.

His movement for the goal is bare minimum stuff, he comes short to Matic, then turns and gets into the box, almost running on top of Rashford, it's Martial's man who actually gets the block on Rashfords shot so it doesn't really take anyone away and he's already beaten 2 other defenders at that stage, it causes Martial's marker to make a step to follow him but again, it's bare minimum stuff - that goal is 98% Matic & Rashford.

His assist is grand, he drops in and slips in Jesse, but it's an easy pass and AC had switched off.

Not to mention he was covering the crosser for their second goal and was so easily beaten then made a lame attempt at blocking the ball in, glossed over.

Again I don't want to come off harsh on Martial but I just don't see any objectivity in this thread! There's been lots of positive stuff from him during the Tour but I think there's still visible issues there that will be exposed during the season and it's fine to discuss those, objectively!

Spoiler: Goals

 

[Duafc]

There are a lot of flaws in Martial's game but pressing is something I'd forgive for Martial, we aren't a complete pressing unit yet and it's pointless to waste energy to press a CB when your teammates aren't cutting out passing lanes/pressing other players, a lone striker running at a defender will get easily passed around.

Fair if you think so - I think when you put Matic, Mata and Martial in the starting 11 an effective press is gone. I think Martial can be accommodated in that sense when Jesse, Fred, Scott, Periera, and other good pressers are on the pitch as from Preseason so far there has been improvement in that area.

That said 3 forwards can absolutely press a back line and the no.9 will normally have responsibility for the 2 CBs, which is very achievable if you want to do the running.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Fair if you think so - I think when you put Matic, Mata and Martial in the starting 11 an effective press is gone. I think Martial can be accommodated in that sense when Jesse, Fred, Scott, Periera, and other good pressers are on the pitch as from Preseason so far there has been improvement in that area.

That said 3 forwards can absolutely press a back line and the no.9 will normally have responsibility for the 2 CBs, which is very achievable if you want to do the running.

3 forwards can run around all they want against a backline but if your midfield isn't pressing their's then it's a pretty pointless exercise as any top 6 side will easily make a simple pass to the midfield. I'm not saying Martial shouldn't even attempt at all, but players are different, some have high energy levels and will feel the need to run regardless but some others will conserve energy. May be Martial belongs the second group.

 

[Duafc]

3 forwards can run around all they want against a backline but if your midfield isn't pressing their's then it's a pretty pointless exercise as any top 6 side will easily make a simple pass to the midfield. I'm not saying Martial shouldn't even attempt at all, but players are different, some have high energy levels and will feel the need to run regardless but some others will conserve energy. May be Martial belongs the second group.

Yeah... but that's then the midfields problem, it still has to start from your forwards.

The difference in the last 20/30 after our subs was night and day in terms of the press although Milan's fitness and B team being on at that stage obviously has a lot to do with it.

I think Martial probably does fit into the second group, though I think this pre season he has shown more running and pressing that I can remember ever before, and importantly doing it the right way in angling his runs and closing off passing lanes. I just think he'll struggle to sustain it as at a base level he's not interested in it.

 

[K13]

Fair if you think so - I think when you put Matic, Mata and Martial in the starting 11 an effective press is gone. I think Martial can be accommodated in that sense when Jesse, Fred, Scott, Periera, and other good pressers are on the pitch as from Preseason so far there has been improvement in that area.

That said 3 forwards can absolutely press a back line and the no.9 will normally have responsibility for the 2 CBs, which is very achievable if you want to do the running.

Personally I don't think you need to be on top of a player to press effectively. You just need to know where they want to pass it and deny them that chance. I actually think Martial does that really well. He seems to watch the body language rather than the ball.