[Raven]

As i've said previously, James is better of the LW and does what we can off the RW.

We haven't had a RW for years, thats another topic altogether.

This is a thread about Martial.

Martial is inconsistent and when he's not at it, he's non existent in games. Thats regardless of who else is playing. He's a classic hot or cold player. Thats my issue with him. When he isnt bang on top form, he might as well not be playing because he doesn't contribute in other areas.

I understand the viewpoints that strikers needs supply etc etc but that doesnt effect my viewpoint on Martial. My issue with Martial is consistency. Always has been.

He's super talented and a great dribbler. He can finish, he can link play. He's a good striker, but a level below what we ideally need there. He's not shown signs of improving the consistency either

Martial has shown signs of improvement in his consistency this season and that's just the start. He's clearly improved his left foot and heading ability. He is still not the best off the ball but has certainly shown improvement in that area. His work rate is noticeably higher and has been pretty much all season.

Martial has roughly the same number of goals from open play this season as Rashford yet he's constantly shat on by people like your good self because you have already made your mind up on him.

It's like the Pogba situation for me, he's one of our best and most talented players who, like any other player in our squad, deserves fair criticism. Unfortunately, people are unwilling to look at the bigger picture, our squad has not been consistent and has not been full of quality.

Now that we finally have a team with some quality and creativity, I fully expect Martial to become more consistent and more effective. Up until the end of January he was being supplied by Fred, McTominay, Perreira, Lingard, James, etc. I like all of these players for one reason or another but there is absolutely no doubting that they have not provided that chances that a top class striker deserves.

I do agree that Martial is currently a level below what we need to challenge for major titles but given the improvents he has made to his own game and the overall improvement in quality throughout the squad, I'm confident he will become the striker we need.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I think it's ignorance if people don't understand why Martial is criticised. We are a big club that should always have one of the best strikers in the world. Martial isn't even one of the best in the league. Yes we are not that good again but if we want to get back to that level this current Martial is not the striker to take you there. That's where the criticism comes from.

You can give reasonable excuses for his bad performances and inconsistencies (not enough creativity, first season as a striker etc) but what people see is someone that has been tipped to become world class for 6 years now without any significant development.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I think it's ignorance if people don't understand why Martial is criticised. We are a big club that should always have one of the best strikers in the world. Martial isn't even one of the best in the league. Yes we are not that good again but if we want to get back to that level this current Martial is not the striker to take you there. That's where the criticism comes from.

This is fair enough, Martial currently is not considered among the elite, he'd need improvement from both him and the team to get there. I don't think many will argue that.

You can give reasonable excuses for his bad performances and inconsistencies (not enough creativity, first season as a striker etc) but what people see is someone that has been tipped to become world class for 6 years now without any significant development

This is the part I contest with. We all know he hasn't played striker for us till this season. Now that he has, we've seen some improvement: weaker foot, hold up play, heading, work rate, and numbers to name a few. To say that he hasn't improved isn't accurate, although maybe the improvement hasn't been as drastic as you would like.

Some think he can make it to that highest level and see his improvements as a sign of him getting there, while some think it's too late for him, and want us to get someone new. Even if you're in the latter camp, you can still acknowledge his improvements and the context around them, the same way I can also acknowledge he has deficiencies which prevent him from being considered elite.

 

[Raven]

I think it's ignorance if people don't understand why Martial is criticised. We are a big club that should always have one of the best strikers in the world. Martial isn't even one of the best in the league. Yes we are not that good again but if we want to get back to that level this current Martial is not the striker to take you there. That's where the criticism comes from.

You can give reasonable excuses for his bad performances and inconsistencies (not enough creativity, first season as a striker etc) but what people see is someone that has been tipped to become world class for 6 years now without any significant development.

No player is above criticism all I expect is for the it to be fair and constructive. Coughing up a bunch of tired old cliches like a cat with a hair ball is neither.

 

[Sky1981]

No player is above criticism all I expect is for the it to be fair and constructive. Coughing up a bunch of tired old cliches like a cat with a hair ball is neither.

It's not a cliche, he's still the same old Martial with a better form.

How much improvement has he made from his first debut?

You take a few good games to show he's improved, but there are also a few other games where he shows his old self. His improvements isn't set in stone, he' still the old Martial

Average rating : 5.9 from the caf reflects exactly that, some good games, some meh games, averaged a 6.

 

[Raven]

It's not a cliche, he's still the same old Martial with a better form.

How much improvement has he made from his first debut?

You take a few good games to show he's improved, but there are also a few other games where he shows his old self. His improvements isn't set in stone, he' still the old Martial

Average rating : 5.9 from the caf reflects exactly that, some good games, some meh games, averaged a 6.

I'm not listing his improvements twice in the same day. If you want to see what I've said on the matter, scroll up a few posts.

 

[Shark]

It's not a cliche, he's still the same old Martial with a better form.

How much improvement has he made from his first debut?

You take a few good games to show he's improved, but there are also a few other games where he shows his old self. His improvements isn't set in stone, he' still the old Martial

Average rating : 5.9 from the caf reflects exactly that, some good games, some meh games, averaged a 6.

You use an average from a forum that is known for being overly critical of our players, even back when we were winning titles under SAF. Most on here don't even watch anyone but United so assume every other striker is naturally having standout games every single week. I don't think anyone has even denied that Martial can't improve or that he doesn't need to be more consistent, more so that coughing up these cliches after months of no football is tiresome, especially after a game in which he wasn't even that poor in comparison with the rest of our attackers.

 

[Sky1981]

You use an average from a forum that is known for being overly critical of our players, even back when we were winning titles under SAF. Most on here don't even watch anyone but United so assume every other striker is naturally having standout games every single week. I don't think anyone has even denied that Martial can't improve or that he doesn't need to be more consistent, more so that coughing up these cliches after months of no football is tiresome, especially after a game in which he wasn't even that poor in comparison with the rest of our attackers.

So it's the forum's fault now?

 

[Bebestation]

For me he isnt one of the best strikers in the league but he is one of the best support strikers in the league.

If you dont play the right players around him then he will look worse than he actually is & why people bring up Firmino is not just because he is also a support striker ( a support striker with exceptional work rate) but one who struggled and plenty of fans thought Firmino was not that good as a striker before the clinical forwards were played on either side of him.

Hell, even right now there are people wondering if Firmino is good enough (particularly in this forum even after Liverpool are winning CL's and titles) because people are just so used to the central players scoring goals and cant understand that a team would adjust and adapt to have the goalscorers play at angles off left and right like players like Mane and Salah do (aubemayang also does this), Rashford and Greenwood are just doing the exact same thing.

However, once you play Daniel James - the tactic is completely different, he is more likely to create a chance than finish a chance off when Martial should be used the other way - to create a chance and play 1-2's off players like Rashford and Greenwood- trying to interlink them together whilst Rashford and Greenwood become our deadly goalscorers and Martial adds goals himself after doing the interlinking passing.

https://ibb.co/m8C5BLk

This picture from the athletic shows how deep Martial sits when Greenwood and Rashford play and they have the ability to make the runs off him and be clinical. They are narrow enough to allow the fullbacks to get forward to atleast attempt to be more attacking. James on the other hand isnt clinical enough and is more creative, trying to create to not the most predatory striker.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thebus...ical-analysis-mason-greenwood-vs-daniel-james

Another article about James vs Greenwood- a creator of chances/hard defensive worker vs a clinical finisher on the right hand side of Martial who plays as a false 9.

A players ability is not linear, its effected by so many things- like the system they play in who they play with & for me - if Greenwood had a near full season at RW this time next year as a goal scorer - we will see the full potential of Martial.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

This is the part I contest with. We all know he hasn't played striker for us till this season. Now that he has, we've seen some improvement: weaker foot, hold up play, heading, work rate, and numbers to name a few. To say that he hasn't improved isn't accurate, although maybe the improvement hasn't been as drastic as you would like.

Some think he can make it to that highest level and see his improvements as a sign of him getting there, while some think it's too late for him, and want us to get someone new. Even if you're in the latter camp, you can still acknowledge his improvements and the context around them, the same way I can also acknowledge he has deficiencies which prevent him from being considered elite.

Yes I can see improvements but it's inconsistent and hardly drastic. I don't want to be overly critical so I would say he at least deserves another season to see if he and kick it to another gear and find consistency but I doubt he would become a world class striker and happy to be proven wrong

 

[Sky1981]

For me he isnt one of the best strikers in the league but he is one of the best support strikers in the league.

If you dont play the right players around him then he will look worse than he actually is & why people bring up Firmino is not just because he is also a support striker ( a support striker with exceptional work rate) but one who struggled and plenty of fans thought Firmino was not that good as a striker before the clinical forwards were played on either side of him.

Hell, even right now there are people wondering if Firmino is good enough (particularly in the forum) because people are just so used to the central players scoring goal and cant understand that a team would adjust and adapt to have the goalscorers play at angles off left and right like players like Mane and Salah do (aubemayang also does this), Rashford and Greenwood are just doing the exact same thing.

However, once you play Daniel James - the tactic is completely different, he is more likely to create a chance than finish a chance off when Martial should be used the other way - to create a chance and play 1-2's off players like Rashford and Greenwood- trying to interlink them together whilst Rashford and Greenwood become our deadly goalscorers and Martial adds goals himself after doing the interlinking passing.

https://ibb.co/m8C5BLk

This picture from the athletic shows how deep Martial sits when Greenwood and Rashford play and they have the ability to make the runs off him and be clinical. They are narrow enough to allow the fullbacks to get forward to atleast attempt to be more attacking. James on the other hand isnt clinical enough and is more creative to a not the most predatory striker.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thebus...ical-analysis-mason-greenwood-vs-daniel-james

Another article about James vs Greenwood- a creator of chances/hard defensive worker vs a clinical finisher on the right hand side of Martial who plays as a false 9.

A players ability is not linear, its effected by so many things- like the system they play in who they play with & for me - if Greenwood had a near full season at RW this time next year as a goal scorer - we will see the full potential of Martial.

So another if on his score card. Martial will only flourish if Greenwood had a near full season.

 

[Bebestation]

So another if on his score card. Martial will only flourish if Greenwood had a near full season.

Yes, we dont need someone to come create chances for Martial from the RW - we need someone to be clinical off the RW.

Does Rashford create chances for Martial? Not in my eyes. But he interlinked perfectly because he is a forward with the intention of playing at an angle and making runs off Martial's deep playing style.

Greenwood is the same. Greenwood wont play 90 mins a match and waste his time trying to create chances for Martial like James does - he will try to take the chances himself. That's what Mane & Salah are - the wide goalscorers and I believe Rashford and Greenwood are ours.

That's why I have said if Sancho does come here he has to play like Pedro of Barcelona or Mbappe - the right footed clinical forwards to ever interlink with Martial, which is a great possibility - however, if Sancho comes in and struggles to cut in on the RW & to be clinical on his debut season therefore resorts to creating chances instead by crossing - I doubt Martial will be clinical enough to be our first team striker from that point on because Martial will be always too deep for that to happen.

 

[McGrathsipan]

I think it's ignorance if people don't understand why Martial is criticised. We are a big club that should always have one of the best strikers in the world. Martial isn't even one of the best in the league. Yes we are not that good again but if we want to get back to that level this current Martial is not the striker to take you there. That's where the criticism comes from.

You can give reasonable excuses for his bad performances and inconsistencies (not enough creativity, first season as a striker etc) but what people see is someone that has been tipped to become world class for 6 years now without any significant development.

Totally agreed.
I have always maintained that he has the potential but he is a lazy player. He doesn't contribute enough to a game in general. Especially when we are not in possession.
So frustrating to watch

 

[Sky1981]

Yes, we dont need someone to come create chances for Martial from the RW - we need someone to be clinical off the RW.

Does Rashford create chances for Martial? Not in my eyes. But he interlinked perfectly because he is a forward with the intention of playing at an angle and making runs off Martial's deep playing style.

Greenwood is the same. Greenwood wont play 90 mins a match and waste his time trying to create chances for Martial like James does - he will try to take the chances himself. That's what Mane & Salah are - the wide goalscorers and I believe Rashford and Greenwood are ours.

That's why I have said if Sancho does come here he has to play like Pedro of Barcelona or Mbappe - the right footed clinical forwards to ever interlink with Martial, which is a great possibility - however, if Sancho comes in and struggles to cut in on the RW & to be clinical on his debut season therefore resorts to creating chances instead by crossing - I doubt Martial will be clinical enough to be our first team striker from that point on because Martial will be always too deep for that to happen.

Which is what we've been saying, he's not combative enough to go shoulder to shoulder with defenders, granted it's not his strength and he's not Zlatan or Drogba, but we need a proper striker who's not afraid to do so when they need to.

The better we play the more teams will defend and deny us space, we need proper striker who can lead the line and get dirty. Martial standing off means teams gets more composed and it'll be harder for LW/RW to perform, it all changes the dynamics. Nobody expect him to scores most goals, but his off the ball movement offers minimum threat. And frustratingly this is something that he can rectify by simply run more.

Sometimes it's what you do when you don't have the ball that matters.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Which is what we've been saying, he's not combative enough to go shoulder to shoulder with defenders, granted it's not his strength and he's not Zlatan or Drogba, but we need a proper striker who's not afraid to do so when they need to.

The better we play the more teams will defend and deny us space, we need proper striker who can lead the line and get dirty. Martial standing off means teams gets more composed and it'll be harder for LW/RW to perform, it all changes the dynamics. Nobody expect him to scores most goals, but his off the ball movement offers minimum threat. And frustratingly this is something that he can rectify by simply run more.

Sometimes it's what you do when you don't have the ball that matters.

I think he's very strong shoulder to shoulder. But besides that he could have run all he wanted, Lingard, Pereira, and Scott weren't going to find him. It wasn't a coincidence last match that immediately Pogba came on he got 2 chances, that's how it works. And that was against a very deep defensive team at that.

The other thing is, Martial and everyone else in the squad knows that he has probably the 2nd best technique and control after Pogba. Players will naturally look to the most talented on the ball to create chances, and so they all know Martial making runs for Lingard to feed him is backwards. Of course once Bruno came in he was able to be found more and score more goals, but in general the players have looked to Martial and Pogba to progress up the pitch in an attacking sense. For that reason, him making runs when someone like Scott is on the ball is redundant.

All that's not to say he couldn't improve, he certainly can and should look to be deadly off the ball. I'm just explaining how the squad dynamics have been in terms of chance creation. Maybe now that both Pogba and Bruno will be on the pitch together, he won't need to focus as much on progressing the ball. We'll see.

 

[Bebestation]

Which is what we've been saying, he's not combative enough to go shoulder to shoulder with defenders, granted it's not his strength and he's not Zlatan or Drogba, but we need a proper striker who's not afraid to do so when they need to.

The better we play the more teams will defend and deny us space, we need proper striker who can lead the line and get dirty. Martial standing off means teams gets more composed and it'll be harder for LW/RW to perform, it all changes the dynamics. Nobody expect him to scores most goals, but his off the ball movement offers minimum threat. And frustratingly this is something that he can rectify by simply run more.

Sometimes it's what you do when you don't have the ball that matters.

No we don't need a predatory number 9 if players like Rashford and Greenwood are playing out wide like Ronaldo and Bale or Mane and Salah.

The last thing we need is a predatory striker in that circumstance who stays in the box- we need a striker that has the ability to interlink the wide forwards but also be clinical enough when a chance does come his way.

However if we have striker consistently in the box trying to be predatory- compare Ighalo or Origi to Firmino, then this effects Salah's and Manes game because they have to be more creative than be more goalscorers (which is even worse for us when we dont have the best attacking fullbacks either).

For me Martial has the ability to drop deep but also be clinical enough to be the 2nd-/3rd highest goal scorer in our team and for many people that seems not good enough whilst for nearly 15 years now we see the number 9 get out scored by the LW AND/OR the RW and the number 9 is used to benefit the LW/RW's game. Yet there's people saying that our ST is not good enough when our LW is clearly a goalscorer, our brightest prospect is being used as a goalscorer from RW and is left footed and Martial acts like the glue as a false 9.

Yet Greenwood has had a season where he is being protected (reduced and stop start approach to a season) by Ole even though nearly 90% of the time he plays as a RW he looks exceptional and that does effect a striker - especially a support striker like Martial who would thrive off playing with the likes of goalscorers like Rashford and Greenwood playing off of him more so than a predatory striker like Ighalo or whoever who moves around in the box trying to score.

 

[mu4c_20le]

AM9 is back.

 

[TsuWave]

We move



♪ martial anthony, martial anthony ♪

 

[el3mel]

10/10 tonight.

His best match in United shirt ever. Brilliant and amazing all around. 3 brilliant goals with proper positioning in the box, finishing and movement.

 

[Yagami]

The amount of people that wanted him dropped for this game

 

[AshRK]

Loved all the three goals. Proper number 9 goals. For sure would give him immense confidence going forward.

 

[VP89]

Souness still mugged him off?! That guy

 

[He'sRaldo]

Better striker than Firmino.

 

[horsechoker]

Ice cool.

I've never him smile so much.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Absolutely delighted for him.

fantastic match and could have been 4 if he wasn’t so unselfish!

he looked over the moon love that he forgot the match ball

 

[Isotope]

Look at him. He smiles today as much as all his 6 years combined

 

[amolbhatia50k]

One of the best individual peformances of the post SAF era. He had everything today. Class player.

 

[roonster09]

His link up play with Rashford is brilliant, they have very good understanding.

Proper 9 goals, all 3 of them. Hold up, pass and move. He had brilliant game.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Consistency is key but an amazing #9 performance.

 

[dbs235]

Souness still mugged him off?! That guy

He said he's class just needs to play like that all the time. He said it pre match too.

 

[Majima]

Is it okay to post this here? This sums up my feelings.

 

[Jazz]

We eating good tonight!

So happy to see this. What most impressed me was seeing him getting into the box. That is Ole's influence, and Tony needs to keep listening and do it all the time.

Anyway, nice to see him smiling (don't think he's ever smiled that much in his life).

Now just needs to keep working hard.

 

[TsuWave]

on 19 goals and was injured for two months

 

[Bobcat]

Stonewall 10/10 performance tonight. I've been critical of him in the past, but if he can settle somewhere near the level he showed today we dont need to shop for another striker in years

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

We need to use this game as evidence that Martial is a no.9. If he wasn't he would never have played like this. This is typical solid no.9 performance. For me it's clear now that his problem is consistency

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

All rounded 9 performance today. Did everything, and deserved his hat trick. Super performance!

 

[Deleted 112447]

on 19 goals and was injured for two months

Yes but can he score?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He said he's class just needs to play like that all the time. He said it pre match too.

Nobody plays like that all of the time. And if some play like that most of the time then they're all time greats of the game.

 

[Raven]

Absolutely world class performance. Haven't seen a United attacker perform like that in years.

 

[KennyBurner]

Better striker than Firmino.

Ive said this since last season. He is a much better player. Feed him and he performs. His only disadvantage is once you cut off his supply he is invisible which is the case for 95% of all elite strikers.