Martial is a good player and still very young but I just fail to see the exceptional talent people keep talking about. Exceptional talent for me is like Hazard for example who irrespective of the manager and system just looks a cut above everyone else when he touches the ball. Again Martial is a lot younger but I just don't see it with him in terms of having that level . I hope he proves me wrong but I doubt it's going to happen for him at United .
9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Goals
- 11
- Assists
- 11
- Yellow cards
- 1
- Status
He is a confidence player as well. Did you not see how he struggled in 2015/16? Didn't score a goal until March or April. Martial has never been that bad for us actually. It's clear that he needs a run of games to show his talent but isn't been given the chances. Don't forget Hazard is 4/5 years older as well. Martial has time on his side and has the potential to be much better by that time. They are also different players. Hazard is more of a creator but Martial has the striker instinct and will score more goals.
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So true, how you can expect anyone to be in top form with sporadic minutes here and there, no set pattern, telling him he has to play 'phenomenally' to stay in the team whilst others get away with abject performances without criticism, is all beyond me.
Jose has indeed sidelined him to fit his agenda that Martial 'isn't mentally right'. Nonetheless, Martial always looks like our most potent attacking threat when he plays, he takes people on and gets fans off their seats. he has been terribly mismanaged.
I still don't expect Jose to actively sell him, rather just to push Martial until he says 'f*ck it I'm leaving'. His cryptic message in the media the other day is just one of many examples of that.
I certainly hope you can see a few things Radhford and Sanchez does fairly consistently that Martial doesn’t, fairly consistently?
I think it’s safe or ar least sound to say that Mourinho and his team (as well as Deschamps) evaluates these things as more important to the team’s chance of winning both in the short and long run, than the relative goal point ratios and technical proficiency Martial has going for him.
11 goals and 11 assists in a season where he only completed 8 full games isn’t bad at all. Jose can’t seriously think it’s oksy to sell Martial. Yes he has flaws but he has incredible talent that can’t be thrown aside.
Deschamps has nothing to do with this conversation, the reason he isn't in the team isn't because of what you are insinuating. France don't use Martial's role which means that when Martial is evaluated he is evaluated as an option for the secondary tactic and we have players part of the primary tactic that are as good as Martial in his own role, namely Mbappé and Coman. Deschamps can't bring 30 players, he is limited to 23 which means that specialists that aren't part of the first tactic will be pushed aside in favor of versatility.
"Judging from what see on television"
No every human being has a smile on their face every single second. People have different body language. Instead of that why don't we look at how many players are actually playing well. If the team were playing well and winning people won't not be able to question Mourinho's decisions. Sanchez has been awful since he arrived but plays every week. Mourinho can justify his decisions with performances and results. Since he has arrived at Utd De Gea is still our best player. Of all his signings, hardly any are thriving nor would they get into a team of the season. Mourinho simply isn't getting enough out of Martial, Rashford, Sanchez and his squad. - Why should we expect another summer of spending to make any difference?
When was he not dropped? In each of the last two seasons Anthony Martial has started more league games than Rashford. He started more Champions League games too.
I see it, 2 seasons ago he looked like he was going to be top notch, he's definitely on the same level as Sane, but, for me, Jose has destroyed his confidence so he'll not try what he was doing under Van Gaal, even when things weren't going right he was always wanting the ball, no he gets the ball and looks to pass it more than actually cut in and run at the defence.
What had Jose actually done to destroy his confidence by the way? I'm genuinely interested to know.
I appreciate your points about Deschamps, you probably know alot more than me about that situation (which is the reason for the paragraphs). I would perhaps argue that the amount of trust of Descamps in Martial shown over the last two years, his evaluations of his strengths and weaknesses, seem to be also about something more than competition and squad needs, but it is a side point to my post anyway.
My main point was that looking at the performances of Martial even when in form, I see things he by now lacks and that for instance Sanchez and Rashford shows. Some people seems not to acknowledge this at all.
The other point was me guessing that these ‘lacks’ that are perceived by some as perhaps ‘less important’ or ‘easily corrected’, are in fact by Mourinho assessed as ‘very important’ and ‘very hard to correct’.
Who is right? I don’t know.
Your other point is key and that's what I said a year ago, either Martial adapts to Mourinho or he is gone. The difference between people that thinks like me and the majority of Martial's detractors is that I accept three things, first Mourinho's position is subjective, it's not because Martial doesn't fit his archetypal wide player that Martial is tactically doing something wrong, it also doesn't mean that within his tactical framework Mourinho is wrong too.
Now when I say that I'm sure that some will see as a cop out because I didn't blame anyone, the reason I don't blame anyone is because change can only happen if both side trust each others and it's important to acknowledge that there is no hierarchy in that aspect, the player and the manager have to put the same amount of work to create a bound that ideally should lead both sides to make enough steps in the same direction to see eye to eye.
That last point is what really bothers me, Mourinho knows that the role that he gave to Martial isn't ideal, he said it himself, so it's a professional fault from him, people can spout all the nonsense they want but no manager should have that type of attitude, it's his job to put players in ideal positions. On the other side Martial has not improved in some aspect of his game, his game without the ball isn't sharp, he lacks audacity and intensity with the ball, he is very efficient but he can and should be more than what he currently is, so he can't hide behind Mourinho.
And as an aside, Martial has things that Sanchez and Rashford lack, composure and efficiency. If we are serious that alone should see them on the bench instead of Martial because defensive work rate isn't a primary concern for attackers, it's something that you can balance with the defensive players and midfield, that's what every good manager does, on the other end being composed and efficient is integral to an attacker job.
Agree with most of what you’re saying, also about the things that Martial has on Rashford and Sanchez. I would add that his ball control and precision in delivery is better (not unimportant feats!). On the other hand I would also add that his initiative, anticipation and creativity off the ball seems the weakest among all og our attacking players, and with Mourinho that is a particularly big thing, as he expects his attackers to be mentally active and find solutions to problems on their own to a larger degree than ie Guardiolas and Van Gaals automaton type football.
Mourinho is a great teacher for many, but he is mostly better with players who have experience or are good at problem solving (according to those who have followed his methods closely). Van Gaal was the opposite, better with young players more eager to be ‘thaught’ than to ‘learn’.
For players like Martial and Shaw in particular, this might be an unsurmountable mismatch, it certainly seems so by now, because even if they are in shape, confident and succeeds in tackles, dribbles and shots, they will hamper the team’s problem solving ability in ways that are less evident to us fans.
In the opposite way, players like Cantona, Berbatov or Zlatan will often hamper the efficiency of teams like Guardiolas or Van Gaal’s, look bad, or even look good but get sacrificed.
No managers way will match every talented player’s needs, and it probably hurts many United fan’s hearts to see it happen to young flair players in particular.
Have we mentioned that United don't want to sell Martial and the player doesn't want to leave this summer yet?
All over the Manchester Evening News.
All over the Manchester Evening News.
I had no problem with last season, as that was on Martial himself as he wasn't playing well enough. He didn't deserve to play more games than he did. In saying that, instantly taking Martial's shirt number off him to give to Zlatan wasn't a great start.
This season though I haven't been much of a fan of Jose's use of Martial. Starting the season with Martial and Rashford rotating was fine, even though Rashford did seem to get slightly preferential treatment. The problem began when Martial was obviously outperforming Rashford by quite a significant margin, but it took a good month or two of that before Jose seemed to acknowledge it and start picking Martial as his definite first choice. But fair enough, Martial was forced to fight for his spot and, although it took longer than most would have liked, he ultimately 'won' that challenge. Then the instant Sanchez was signed Martial was moved out of his preferred position into his weakest position (out of the positions he could realistically be picked in), and quite quickly dropped all together from the starting line-up even though the player who replaced him was playing significantly worse than he himself had been before that. And then since then, it's definitely seemed that Rashford has moved ahead of him in the pecking order again, despite Martial still generally playing better in the chances he has got.
Basically it does feel like Martial has to be close to perfect in every game else he gets dropped, whereas the others he is competing with can get away with constant poor games. It's frustrating just for us watching, so it can't be great for his confidence. Making him fight for a spot is fine, as long as the others he is competing with have to do the same.
This doesn’t really match up with the reality that much. Especially when it comes to Rashford. He’s started more games than Rashford and both have a very similar output. Rashford has also been moved position way more often than Martial has.
There is a point with Sanchez who has generally been awful. I can see why the manager is playing him though as he did have big moments in a couple of our biggest games towards the end of the season and by this time neither Martial or Rashford were pulling up any trees. He also is looking to bed him in and hope that he will recapture his old form. I’m not sure he will but there is merit in trying.
Thank you Sir for a rational post.
In the last 10 games of the season:
Rashford
Starts: 4
Subbed on: 6
Martial
Starts: 2
Subbed on: 3
Martial would have had another start if not for the slight knock that kept him out of the Watford match, but it's still a fair difference. If we go back to when Sanchez first signed it's a bit more even (Rashford still has both more starts and subbed on appearances while missing two matches through injury), but in the matches where they both come off the bench it's almost always been Rashford coming on first.
The only reason Martial has started more than Rashford this season is because of that period of one or two months before we signed Sanchez. He started significantly more there as he was undisputed first choice. For the rest of the season Rashford has been ahead both before (slightly) and after (by quite a bit) that period.
Rashford has been moved around plenty as well, but honestly he has never cemented any of the positions and his performances haven't had all that much difference between them. Probably slightly better on the left in the same spot as Martial, but he's been mostly poor to average in all of the positions.
Basically, Rashford hasn't 'deserved' to be treated any different than what he has. Much like Martial the previous season. If they get opportunities and don't take them, that's on them. That's where Martial this season was different - he took his opportunity and just when he had established himself as our most important attacking player, it was taken off him. Despite his replacement not doing well enough he never really got another opportunity in that spot. And then at the end of the season when Lukaku was injured, he never got a chance to take that spot either and it went straight to the player he has outperformed all season.
Look at that from Martial's point of view and I'd be very surprised if he's not quite unhappy with it all. Hopefully not enough to push for a move, and hopefully Mourinho will figure out a way to get him into the team more next season and stick with him if he deserves it.
Why’s that? They both put up very similar numbers and are both very inconsistent. There’s very little between them which is why they’ve played roughly the same amount.
I just realised that this dude has made 45 appearances. That's actually a lot.
This is 100% exactly my stance. Every one of our attackers are under performing so the issue seems bigger than just one guy is lazy.
If the player wants out there is not much Jose can do no? I view it as the same as when Pogba was here initially, wasnt getting as much game time as he liked, moved on to Juve for more first team football.
found this, sorry if posted before
This has been stated so many times it's getting ridiculous now. There is a distinct difference between a player wanting to leave and a manager 'thinking it's okay to sell them'. If a player is intent on leaving, you'd be hard done finding many managers at top clubs keeping them around, it can become toxic and they more often than not won't give you their 100%.
It sure is
Yeah don’t really see Martial forcing his way out. Only see ‘United willing to listen to offers’. Unless I have missed where he’s forcing his way out and becoming ‘toxic’.
This all started with a reputable french outlet reporting that Martial had rejected a contract renewal from us.
If Martial refuses to sign a contract we have to sell him, you don't just let players run down their contracts and leave for free.
Isn’t the latest that they are still negotiating?
The report that started the rumours was from Boufasi, who is extremely reliable, saying he rejected talks of a new contract with United. The club therefore of course is going to be willing to listen to offers, instead of keeping a player who is unsettled.
So if we are negotiating with him that means we want him to stay. If negotiations don't accomplish anything then we'll have to sell him.
If he stays I have a feeling he'll be given a lot of preseason time on the right wing to see if he can accustom himself to the position.
With Rashford likely coming back late from the World Cup, he'll have a great chance to nail down a spot with a full pre-season and hopefully work out a better understanding with Alexis.
right now there are 3 young player that have potential to touch Cristiano's Level
technically gift on the ball, have pace and power.
1. anthony martial
2. marcus rashford
3. mbappe
we have 2 of 3 we should keep them and build future united team around them. should stop this idiot coach name mourinho ruin united future for his short united success.
technically gift on the ball, have pace and power.
1. anthony martial
2. marcus rashford
3. mbappe
we have 2 of 3 we should keep them and build future united team around them. should stop this idiot coach name mourinho ruin united future for his short united success.
Yeah nah.
Rashford? He's the potential of Arron Lennon.
I love Rashford. He is a Manchester lad and has been with us since he was 7. I think more game time will make him an excellent finisher.
But dont think he has shown anything to predict that he ll be a future Ballon D'Or
Christmas Day! Some people are dismissive of our players because you watch them so closely. Others think all United players are the best.
Which one are you?
Reminds me of all those interviews with Ander Herrera
What do you think about Valencia? I think best right back in the world
What do you think about Matic ? I think best player in world in his position
De Gea? Best keeper in the world
Rojo One of the best CB in the world
Rashford The best teenager in the world
Spain Best midfield in the world
- Status