A back 3 against Madrid? I totally missed that if we did... Who was the third centre half?
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Darmian. Which makes the whole idea even more bizarre. Our formation in the first half made absolutely zero sense. Lingard was some pseudo wing-back who kept coming inside to no effect at all while Darmian was playing a sort-of-CB where it was less obvious how utterly clueless he is on the ball. I'm not sure what was the plan, even.
But this is my point. If Lingard is the only available LWB, with Darmian having to play as CB, then it's a fantastically stupid idea to play 3-5-2. Unless Mourinho treated this as just another pre-season friendly and wanted the team to become more familiar with the shape required for a 3-5-2, regardless of personnel.
Now I'm beginning to think Mourinho's plan was to play Lingard at all cost and a back 3 enabled him to do just that; He probably played him as LWB because he certainly realized Lingard is in no way offensively good enough to start in a front 3.
Hmm, I'd have to rewatch but I just saw him as left back who's a bit averse to getting forward.
I think it's stupid to play 3 CB defense when you can't commit Wingbacks to attack at every instance. With Matic in side it's better to play with 4 man defense as he is a very good DM. Also it's stupid idead to play 3 CMs when we already have 3 CBs, instead should be playing Mkhitaryan as midfield 3 to commit few players forward.
There are lot of things wrong with 3 CB system that we employ. Lingard/Martial are nothing in the grand scheme of how we set up. Maybe I'm completely wrong but I thought it was unnecessary to play so many CMs when we play 3CBs.
So yeah, as a whole I completely disagree with the way team was set up.
Yup, I really thought we would go with a back four, partly because Juve with all their defensive prowess conceded 4 goals against Real in the CL final but mostly because that's how we lined up against them in pre-season.
Maybe it is best if we include Martial as part of a season loan deal to get Perisic? If martial isnt truly in Jose's first team plans it might actually help his long term development- He'd rip it up in Seria A I imagine.
Dont get me wrong though, if it were me I'd have started him last night and he would be a regular. But if he isnt in Jose's plans..
Dont get me wrong though, if it were me I'd have started him last night and he would be a regular. But if he isnt in Jose's plans..
I hope he starts on Sunday and we don't go all defensive against West Ham at home.
As I said, we've only just played our first competitive match of the season, we still have a lot of games to play and everyone will get game time. It's one game out of a very long season, Martial will play but he has to perform in the system Jose chooses.
Lingard started last night to prevent Carvajal marauding forward, Jose likes his workhorses and Martial will have to prove he's up to this task and I'm sure he will.
Imo the next game is as important as the last, Martial will play and the club has already said he's staying. He played 42 games last season so Jose obviously does like Martial, he just has to learn to play the way Jose likes.
Jesus
One of the best attacking talents of the last few years reduced to being a "workhorse". And some of our fans see no problem with this.Martial is an exciting attacking talent, the kind we used to love at this club, before half of our fanbase did a 180 and started falling in love with Mourinho's defensive shite of tracking runners all game instead of focusing on playing our own game (which interestingly seems to have happened around when he signed for the club).
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Cant you see whats clearly wrong with your post? Rashford came in and carvajal's attacking maurades became nullified as he had to concentrate on his defensive duties.
Am sorry Jose's way is not always the right way especially for young attacking players.
KDB saw through his bullshit and he left, Jose preferred Oscar over him when it was obvious who was clearly the superior player.
It might be just over 2 years ago he won the title but his methods are outdated IMHO as younger managers have evolved and the game has changed.
I personally think Jose dislikes Martial because the guy doesnt kiss his ass and buy into his bullshit just like KDB didnt.
This debate has to end, Jose prefers others and Martial should leave so we can bring those the manager trust to do the job for him.
The complaint about Jose regarding Martial is not about giving him enough minutes. It's about not trusting him to play in important games, not giving him a chance in the next game even if he has played an excellent game.
Martial is not a perfect player, he has many shortcomings, as most of us know. But, out of all our attackers, he carries the most attacking threat, and needs to play regularly with the trust of the manager to improve himself. We can get Mbappe/Dembele or anyone else but I doubt they would be in a better situation than Martial. The reactive tactics employed by Jose also nullifies most of our attacking instincts. It just feels in most matches that we, as a team are always playing within ourselves.
Martial is not a perfect player, he has many shortcomings, as most of us know. But, out of all our attackers, he carries the most attacking threat, and needs to play regularly with the trust of the manager to improve himself. We can get Mbappe/Dembele or anyone else but I doubt they would be in a better situation than Martial. The reactive tactics employed by Jose also nullifies most of our attacking instincts. It just feels in most matches that we, as a team are always playing within ourselves.
The complaint about Jose regarding Martial is not about giving him enough minutes. It's about not trusting him to play in important games, not giving him a chance in the next game even if he has played an excellent game.
Martial is not a perfect player, he has many shortcomings, as most of us know. But, out of all our attackers, he carries the most attacking threat, and needs to play regularly with the trust of the manager to improve himself. We can get Mbappe/Dembele or anyone else but I doubt they would be in a better situation than Martial. The reactive tactics employed by Jose also nullifies most of our attacking instincts. It just feels in most matches that we, as a team are always playing within ourselves.
Martial is not a perfect player, he has many shortcomings, as most of us know. But, out of all our attackers, he carries the most attacking threat, and needs to play regularly with the trust of the manager to improve himself. We can get Mbappe/Dembele or anyone else but I doubt they would be in a better situation than Martial. The reactive tactics employed by Jose also nullifies most of our attacking instincts. It just feels in most matches that we, as a team are always playing within ourselves.
He should have started yesterday, Lingard was very poor.
200+ posts triggered solely by Martial not being used by Jose in the last match (and still counting). This place is obsessed about the appearances of Martial. Its not as if he has been the key difference in the team performance in a consistent way. And when he starts and performs poorly, the supporters just switch to the theory of "Jose can't get the best of Martial, he is a managerial dinosour and can only work with hard-working wingers but not flair players" and "he will soon leave us for another team". I am sure even Martial does not react in this way as people here do to his omission from the team.
I'll keep beating this drum - until we get a new LB or change our tactics for our existing left backs, whoever plays as the left side attacker is essentially always set up to fail. Lingard, Rashford, Martial - they're all right-footed so they aren't inclined to put in left-footed crosses much. That leaves the majority of their play to cutting in and, more often than not, trying to beat 2 mean on their own. There's almost never any fullback support on that side and they get painfully isolated. On the right side, we have Valencia pushing up, supporting the likes of Mkhitarayan or Mata as they tuck in - defenders are kept occupied and can't double up, space is created. Someone like Perisic might be OK in a role like that given his left-footedness and cross-first style but I don't think our other current wide forward options will ever shine there as long as they continue to be isolated.
Matches against the elite are what such players look forward to. Not being selected in such matches gives an idea to the player that the manager does not have the faith in the player to play well or to cause an impact.
If Martial does not feel down or "triggered" then he does not have the right mentality to play for a big club.
Talk about being brainwashed. We're talking about a manager who is known to mismanage exceptional young talents before and him being up to his old tricks is nothing surprising.
But go on and tell everyone how they are overreacting while Mourinho is this faultless figure.
And this is a forum to talk about these things so don't act surprised there are discussions talking about our players and managers whether they are positive or negative talks.
Frustrating that he didnt play yesterday. I think him and Rashford would have pinned back their FB's more effectively
This is why I just don't see us winning a PL title under mourinho if he does not evolve the team. He will probably continue to play tactics that does not play to hunt. But when he continues to play players who have no business even being in the team, it's going to be a problem winning the league, or even look like a side that will scare sides when he is playing and fielding teams this way. Jesse lingard is not going to give managers sleepless nights, and that's the sad reality.
There is a reason why we finished 6th, and if he believes that guys like lingard are more trustworthy in allot of our games ahead of a martial, it's going to be another season of disappointment. Last night showed why a Real Madrid win European cups, and why we can just about scrape a top 4, and look clueless at times week in week out against allot of teams. You can see why Ramos said he never understood the Madrid way and their success since mourinho left has proved this
This season we will know for sure if he's even evolved the team, he wants a long term project but refuses to evolve. I love how a few hyped up te size of the team, yet Real Madrid exposed the very myth that size throughout the team means jack shit if tactics and certain players are not up to speed. Quality wins you titles, not how tall the side is and mourinho seems 50% of the time obsessed on how tall his side can be, when when the league is over the only one tall is he one who wins the league
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Not sure why some are acting as if this is an isolated incident when it happened throughout last season.
I think he should've played yesterday but you do seem a tad obsessed with this.
I'm pretty much resigned to us selling him and him succeeding elsewhere. If it is true that we are discussing a contract for Zlatan to return that puts Rashford primarily on the left wing with an additional winger Jose wants to buy and Martial is going to be squeezed out of playing time.
At least we'll have Jesse 'runs around a lot' Lingard...
Jose needs firing if he thinks Perisic is panacea for his team getting d1cked in the middle of the park.
This, last night Real Madrid with their high line effectively had six in midfield against our two and half (Pogba lumbering about) and they wouldn't have done that if they had Martial and Rashford on the wings because we'd have exposed them on the counter. Mourinho fails to realise that players that can hold the ball and beat players are as effective if not more ( because they create things out of nothing) than his Lingards and Fellainis. He is repeating the same mistake that LVG committed in keeping the team in its defensive shell when it has the capacity to achieve much more and as we saw last night mistakes do happen and you can't legislate for that - ironically the player that Lingard was supposed to 'stop' had acres of space and time to pick out Casemiro for their first goal.
Yes he should be triggered but hopefully in a positive way, i.e., working doubly hard to get into first team plans. From all available evidence this is how he is reacting in the training, etc. He is not a peak Rooney who should necessarily want to leave after having left out of game against Madrid. He is still young.
Right on, can't believe that after watching Isco and Modric mercilessly abusing our midfield he'd think yeah let me go for another grafter. Ultimately I think Jose is not compatible with our business model which is based on grooming youth whilst winning things at the same time, the age bracket of players he is wants us to spend ridiculous amounts on is just not sustainable because you'd need to replace them in a few years with equally expensive ready made players. On the pitch his philosophy could bag us a few trophies but won't create a footballing dynasty imo.
Wrong to think that. Pogba saw that a defender was played in his postion even when he was a proper midfielder and left. Martial gives and does way more than Lingard and should rightfully be pissed about the decision. Being young does not mean he should be patient. He has proved that he has all the qualities to play in such games. Age has nothing to do with it. It took more than 3 seasons for United to play an elite team of Madrid's level.
Jesus
Martial is an exciting attacking talent, the kind we used to love at this club, before half of our fanbase did a 180 and started falling in love with Mourinho's defensive shite of tracking runners all game instead of focusing on playing our own game (which interestingly seems to have happened around when he signed for the club).
It's unbelievable pledging loyalty to Mourinho as opposed to the club and the principles that made the club what it is.
Jose is doing what Jose does, reverting to type
Maybe that's how Martial is thinking and he has all rights to back himself. My original point is that people here are overreacting more to his omission than he himself has shown till now. It is just so boring to read the same thing again and again on the caf. But I am totally hooked on this site so can't stop reading either.
As I said before, this is a make-or-break season for Martial's career at Manchester United. He will either work his way to becoming a starter and not look back or he will leave (third possibility would be Mourinho getting fired and the new manager having a clear sense of what to do with Martial and convincing him of staying).
We can only react to what we see on the field, such as his omission from the game and Lingard taking his place. However, is it really simply a case of Mourinho not liking him? Or is it that Martial is still not giving him what he wants on the training pitch? I honestly don't know. I think to not just not start him but not even give him a go when he had a third sub available seems like Mourinho sending a very clear message to Martial.
We can only react to what we see on the field, such as his omission from the game and Lingard taking his place. However, is it really simply a case of Mourinho not liking him? Or is it that Martial is still not giving him what he wants on the training pitch? I honestly don't know. I think to not just not start him but not even give him a go when he had a third sub available seems like Mourinho sending a very clear message to Martial.
They say he needs time, but if the depth of our team is fellaini and lingard, and not only the depth but actually starting allot of games because he does not have faith in players who can make a difference, and he wants to extend those contracts of these players like lingard. He can have has much time as he likes, he is not going to make us any better if A - there is no identity in how we play the game, just use a portion of luck, keep organised and don't look like consistently looking like a team that's going to do something. B - Rams the players who are the weak link down our throats to prove a point, only point Mourinho is proving, he's not going to bring success, his 1-0 philosophy worked in 2004/05, last season proved teams can attack
What is a transition? rebuilding the team, the passengers who have shown are clearly not good enough they slowly leave, the better players are improving and improving on positions that are weaker. What Jose is proving, he's building a team but at the same time keeping the passengers who are effecting how we play, he's not improving some of the better players, and to be honest he's not strengthened what has been the problem with united, forwards who can stretch the game, and having a big game mentality, even defense esp our fullbacks especially LB is either Jose not making sure shaw gets better but having faith in him.
Are we a dragon? or a puppy? under Mourinho we are the latter, real madrid are a dragon they play to hunt and destroy teams. There is a reason why we are not feared, keep playing lingard in the starting lineup, and we aint going to burn anything to ash. If we playing and looking to win the league, lingard in the team will be another fruitless league campaign
Pretty much this.
Some want to paint this as an overreaction in the sense that we've just seen this in this once off game when in truth it's been this way since last year.
Frustration has just grown and most of us were hoping that he'll go about things a bit differently this year but so far bad signs.
If anything we actually started better with Mourinho(by his usual football standard) and we a bit of an attacking side then turned January he reverted back to complete negativity and it's been that way since then.
I mean the guy refused to add an extra attacker in the game while we're chasing for a goal but instead opted to just let the game run it course probably in fear that he'll get more expose defensively or something. Only this would have made sense if a result of 3-1 or 2-1 would have made a difference.
Losing 2-1 or 3-1 would still have resulted in us losing the final, why not just be brave(which wasn't even needed in his case) and throw in another attacker on your bench and try pushing for that equaliser.
I don't mind Rashford being brought on as he can be just as effective, my frustration comes when the spot is given to Lingard (as I'm sure is the case for most of us). The left side was completely useless when he was on. Plus with Darmian at LB I don't see the need of starting a winger who will help with defensive duties since for the most part Darmian doesn't attack like Valencia.
It's a team game, even great attacking players need to put a shift in defensively, even without Jose being manager.Jesus
Martial is an exciting attacking talent, the kind we used to love at this club, before half of our fanbase did a 180 and started falling in love with Mourinho's defensive shite of tracking runners all game instead of focusing on playing our own game (which interestingly seems to have happened around when he signed for the club).
Gone are the days we can afford our wingers not to track back in a bid to free them up. The game has evolved into wing backs playing very offensively and we can ill afford teams to double up on our own wing backs, hence why our wide players need to track back also. It's not just our team that does it, it's the way the games played now.
I haven't fallen in love with the way Jose lines his team up but I'm not going to slate him into the ground as his way has won us trophies thus far. He knows how to play attacking football, he hasn't won what he has in his career being solely negative when choosing his tactics.
What I saw was a gassed Carvajal, Rashford came in as Lingard wasn't having his best game and Rashford directly runs at his full back at great pace, which we needed as we were losing.
Yes, Jose has a hidden agenda towards Martial whom he played 42 times last season. The same Jose who last season openly acknowledged the talent that Martial possesses but needed to give him a little bit more. Even Jose said Martial is needed and he needs a great squad, not just a great team. Here is a link if you'd like to read.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/man-...al-exit-amid-inter/1qarnm5h3o2au1j0agbc076vql
I agree with a lot of this and the sad part is that Jose has spent £300m to get to what we saw last night. As long as he is afraid of losing he will never build that dynasty that he so craves and regardless of the sneaking into the CL via the Europa he is on borrrowed time because last season was definitely not good enough.
I want to cry.
Last season was at times pretty good and not good enough, if he does not evolve how we play he will go down has just another mediocre united manager that is lucky to survive 5 years, spending so much yet we never looked like moving forward. The whole point in having guys like matic anchoring, with pogba and herrera in the middle is they can dominate games and let our attacking players do the damage in the final third, seems Mourinho did not get the memo. When its lingard, lukaku and mkhi and not allowing herrera and pogba to press and attack teams, what is the point? and he's showing if this continues to happen and has confidence in a lingard I can see a similar finish to last season. We won't win the league this season when he's hardly improved our attack, and lukaku I am not convinced by him. If he's not willing to say to martial be that no11 and do damage to teams, or any of our creative attacking players, how are we even supposed to challenge for the league? when he's asking limited players to do the damage, its like asking to cut a tree down with a spoon. Yes Mourinho spoons are useful to eat cereal and soup
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