[Santoryo]

Well you're basing it on one fact. That Martial started. You're also leaving out another fact. The guy who normally starts wasn't fit.

I am speculating though as I'm sure you have many times on these forums. It doesn't stop you giving an opinion though. Had Rashford been fit do you think Martial would have started?

I don't think it's a big deal but Martial starting doesn't really prove anything given the circumstances.

In his post match Mourinho cited that Rashford being injured(along with Bailly and Fellaini) forced him to go with some of his decisions in picking up his line up for Liverpool implying that he'd have normally started with him, Bailly and Fellaini if they were fit as most people would expect.

Pretending that there was this chance that Rashford wouldn't have started had he been 100 percent fit is simply playing dumb.

 

[Dobbs]

In his post match Mourinho cited that Rashford being injured(along with Bailly and Fellaini) forced him to go with some of his decisions in picking up his line up for Liverpool implying that he'd have normally started with him, Bailly and Fellaini if they were fit as most people would expect.

Pretending that there was this chance that Rashford wouldn't have started had he been 100 percent fit is simply playing dumb.

Yeah he was the only fit left sided player we had available. To extrapolate anything from him starting is Koroux trying to prove a point.

When Martial is starting Premier League games on a regular basis then we can say the manager has full confidence in him.

 

[kouroux]

Well you're basing it on one fact. That Martial started. You're also leaving out another fact. The guy who normally starts wasn't fit.

I am speculating though as I'm sure you have many times on these forums. It doesn't stop you giving an opinion though. Had Rashford been fit do you think Martial would have started?

I don't think it's a big deal but Martial starting doesn't really prove anything given the circumstances.

I don't know, like I said I don't speculate. Martial is important to Mourinho, he's said it enough in interviews for us to believe it. The degree of importance is another subject entirely. Mourinho keeps mentioning that it's hard to satisfy everyone.

Yeah he was the only fit left sided player we had available. To extrapolate anything from him starting is Koroux trying to prove a point.

When Martial is starting Premier League games on a regular basis then we can say the manager has full confidence in him.

I didn't extrapolate anything. Just talked about what happened and what Mourinho said. You're the one who thinks I'm extrapolating.

Besides Martial isn't outperforming Rashford to a level that it makes his selection for most games a certainty. Rashford is his competitor, he just has to deal with it.

 

[redIndianDevil]

He was the wrong choice for the game really, he doesnt get in behind teams instead preferring to take them on which just meant they pressed him and he constantly ran into them.

Wierd to see praise as he did feck all.

He was the correct choice for the game, but not for the tactics Mourinho employed yesterday. A peak Ronaldo would have offered nothing yesterday because of the way our midfielders and defenders played.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

He was the wrong choice for the game really, he doesnt get in behind teams instead preferring to take them on which just meant they pressed him and he constantly ran into them.

Wierd to see praise as he did feck all.

Created our best chance of the game?

The get in behind is a tiring trope from detractors at this point. Did you actually watch the damn game? Our forwards were so isolated that every single time they receive the ball they were triple-teamed. How the feck are you going to 'get in behind' when the midfield is pinned back 10 yards behind the half way line, and same goes for the fullbacks?

 

[meamth]

He did make some important tackles and interceptions down that left flank. 2nd Best player after De Gea for me.

 

[Dobbs]

I don't know, like I said I don't speculate. Martial is important to Mourinho, he's said it enough in interviews for us to believe it. The degree of importance is another subject entirely. Mourinho keeps mentioning that it's hard to satisfy everyone.


I didn't extrapolate anything. Just talked about what happened and what Mourinho said. You're the one who thinks I'm extrapolating.

Besides Martial isn't outperforming Rashford to a level that it makes his selection for most games a certainty. Rashford is his competitor, he just has to deal with it.

You said Martial starting one game proves x,y,z. The very definition of extrapolating.

Again we only have two left sided players and one was injured. Getting the nod for the Liverpool game really doesn't prove anything.

 

[MadMike]

Created our best chance of the game?

The get in behind is a tiring trope from detractors at this point. Did you actually watch the damn game? Our forwards were so isolated that every single time they receive the ball they were triple-teamed. How the feck are you going to 'get in behind' when the midfield is pinned back 10 yards behind the half way line, and same goes for the fullbacks?

Precisely. Getting behind their defence when your midfield is sitting deep and can't pass for toffee, brilliant idea. So basically put even more distance between midfield and attack and be involved in even less phases of play.

 

[MadMike]

You said Martial starting one game proves x,y,z. The very definition of extrapolating.

Again we only have two left sided players and one was injured. Getting the nod for the Liverpool game really doesn't prove anything.

Not remotely true, sorry. He could have started Mata on the right ahead of Martial, with Young taking the LW spot. He is a LW after all and Jose's done it before. Or he could have started Lingard at LW which is also his most common position and which he's also done plenty of times last season. The number of people capable of playing on the left is 4, not 2.

Picking Martial might not show that he trusts Martial more than Rashford specifically, since Rashford was unfit to start, but the fact he got the nod ahead of Mata and Lingard certainly shows a certain level of trust and faith. Otherwise Mata or Lingard would have started.

 

[Scorpy]

http://www.tribalfootball.com/artic...ail-lays-out-martial-development-plan-4203574

Good stuff.

 

[Smores]

Created our best chance of the game?

The get in behind is a tiring trope from detractors at this point. Did you actually watch the damn game? Our forwards were so isolated that every single time they receive the ball they were triple-teamed. How the feck are you going to 'get in behind' when the midfield is pinned back 10 yards behind the half way line, and same goes for the fullbacks?

And i suppose 'detractors' are anyone who criticises him in anyway

One chance? Thats your argument. I said before the game Martial and Mkhi would need to be the ones to make things happen, both of them were too pedestrian which is why they were triple teamed constantly.

They failed to give the midfield options or sit close enough to Lukaku to prevent him being isolated. His defence work was decent though surprisingly

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

And i suppose 'detractors' are anyone who criticises him in anyway

One chance? Thats your argument. I said before the game Martial and Mkhi would need to be the ones to make things happen, both of them were too pedestrian which is why they were triple teamed constantly.

They failed to give the midfield options or sit close enough to Lukaku to prevent him being isolated. His defence work was decent though surprisingly

And I would suggest you watching the game again to see how bad our midfielders were, which makes it damn near impossible to 'stay close to Lukaku'. I counted within the first 20 min there are 3 instances of Matic blasting the ball at Martial which required him to take a touch to stabilize it instead of taking it in his strides.

And there was no effusive praise for the performance. The consensus is that he looked our best forward player, which he did, although that wasn't much given the way we set up. If like you said he was the wrong choice then did Rashford do any better when he came on? No. Because even bloody Messi would be anonymous in our team that match.

 

[kouroux]

You said Martial starting one game proves x,y,z. The very definition of extrapolating.

Again we only have two left sided players and one was injured. Getting the nod for the Liverpool game really doesn't prove anything.

That's not extrapolating I'm sorry. Extrapolating would be something like that "since Martial started this Liverpool match, he will start of the other big games".
All I said and am saying is that Martial is an important player for Mourinho, the Liverpool match AND what Mourinho says about him is a proof of that. It doesn't say how important he is (as in an undisputable starter).

Not remotely true, sorry. He could have started Mata on the right ahead of Martial, with Young taking the LW spot. He is a LW after all and Jose's done it before. Or he could have started Lingard at LW which is also his most common position and which he's also done plenty of times last season. The number of people capable of playing on the left is 4, not 2.

Picking Martial might not show that he trusts Martial more than Rashford specifically, since Rashford was unfit to start, but the fact he got the nod ahead of Mata and Lingard certainly shows a certain level of trust and faith. Otherwise Mata or Lingard would have started.

Good post, there were other combinations possible that would make Martial on the bench even with Rashford unfit/injured/suspended. He started him for this big game, it shows a level of faith like you said.
The issue with posters is that they're too binary in their judgment, either a player has 100% of Mourinho's trust and he starts most games, either he doesn't trust the player at all. If Mourinho had that mentality, he would never have won a single title. He needs to count on more than 11 players.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Our best outfield player by an absolute distance yesterday, Smalling also did okay.

 

[Dobbs]

Not remotely true, sorry. He could have started Mata on the right ahead of Martial, with Young taking the LW spot. He is a LW after all and Jose's done it before. Or he could have started Lingard at LW which is also his most common position and which he's also done plenty of times last season. The number of people capable of playing on the left is 4, not 2.

Picking Martial might not show that he trusts Martial more than Rashford specifically, since Rashford was unfit to start, but the fact he got the nod ahead of Mata and Lingard certainly shows a certain level of trust and faith. Otherwise Mata or Lingard would have started.

I wouldn't argue with your second paragraph. It does show a certain level of faith. I'm saying starting a game when the usual first choice is injured doesn't definitively prove Martial has Mourinho's full trust.

I disagree with us having four left sided players. Yeah technically Lingard or Young could have played there but they rarely do. Martial starting ahead of them doesn't have much signifance to me.

 

[Oldham]

A bit wasted as a wing-back.
Positive that worked hard and defended well, mostly because of his pace...

 

[MadMike]

I wouldn't argue with your second paragraph. It does show a certain level of faith. I'm saying starting a game when the usual first choice is injured doesn't definitively prove Martial has Mourinho's full trust.

I disagree with us having four left sided players. Yeah technically Lingard or Young could have played there but they rarely do. Martial starting ahead of them doesn't have much signifance to me.

You're rewriting history now. They rarely do because Mourinho trusts Martial ahead of them this season. Wasn't the case last season. Young started this fixture ahead of Martial last year on the LW. Lingard got the nod ahead of Martial in many important games like:
- Chelsea home & away
- Man City home
- League Cup final
- All 4 Europa League Quarter-Final and Semi-Final fixtures

...and that's just off the top of my head.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I wouldn't argue with your second paragraph. It does show a certain level of faith. I'm saying starting a game when the usual first choice is injured doesn't definitively prove Martial has Mourinho's full trust.

I disagree with us having four left sided players. Yeah technically Lingard or Young could have played there but they rarely do. Martial starting ahead of them doesn't have much signifance to me.

Wasn't the Liverpool the only game Young has NOT played on the left this season? Actually, I'm struggling to remember the last time he played a game on the right?

 

[Santoryo]

You're rewriting history now. They rarely do because Mourinho trusts Martial ahead of them this season. Wasn't the case last season. Young started this fixture ahead of Martial last year on the LW. Lingard got the nod ahead of Martial in many important games like:
- Chelsea home & away
- Man City home
- League Cup final
- All 4 Europa League Quarter-Final and Semi-Final fixtures

...and that's just off the top of my head.

Mourinho claimed that Martial was injured for that game, though I suspect that wasn't the case.

 

[Dobbs]

You're rewriting history now. They rarely do because Mourinho trusts Martial ahead of them this season. Wasn't the case last season. Young started this fixture ahead of Martial last year on the LW. Lingard got the nod ahead of Martial in many important games like:
- Chelsea home & away
- Man City home
- League Cup final
- All 4 Europa League Quarter-Final and Semi-Final fixtures

...and that's just off the top of my head.

Makes no sense to me. Martial has only started two league games. How can he be keeping Lingard and Young out of the team?

Surely it's Rashford and Mata who have been keeping others on the bench.

Wasn't the Liverpool the only game Young has NOT played on the left this season? Actually, I'm struggling to remember the last time he played a game on the right?

Thought it was obvious I was talking about left wing not left back. Given we're discussing the decision to start Martial and who was an alternative.

In anycase Young was chosen over Mata. That along with him rarely starting on the left wing means he wasn't a viable alternative to Martial.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thought it was obvious I was talking about left wing not left back. Given we're discussing the decision to start Martial.

You were discussing "left sided players" and said Young "rarely plays there", hence my confusion. Before the Liverpool game, when was the last time he was picked to play on the right side? In any position?

 

[MadMike]

Makes no sense to me. Martial has only started two league games. How can he be keeping Lingard and Young out of the team?

Surely it's Rashford and Mata who have been keeping others on the bench.

Alright then

 

[Dobbs]

You were discussing "left sided players" and said Young "rarely plays there", hence my confusion. Before the Liverpool game, when was the last time he was picked to play on the right side? In any position?

I'm not sure Pogue, I seem to remember games for 15 years ago better than I do three weeks ago.

We're discussing the alternatives to playing Martial so when I say left sided players I thought it clear I wasn't talking left backs. I've also clarified that again so not quite sure why we're labouring this point.

Alright then

Sorry but your point has no logic. Your eye roll answer tells me you can see that yourself. How can a guy whose barely started in the league himself be keeping two players out of the team. If Martial is keeping Lingard and Young out who is Mata( an almost permanent fixture) keeping out? No need to answer really as its self explanatory.

 

[ManuMou]

He was simply our best attacker. In a game like this, where he was basically an "isolated" winger, without midfield (Mkhi was non-existent, Matic Herrera were both sitting deep) nor LB support, his only option was Lukaku ! Even world class player would have struggled there.

IMO Jose's style has definitely hindered his performance, especially with our weak LB Darmian, who provides literally zero support, hence Martial was constantly facing at least two players. Only Messi/Ronaldo would have done better in the same situation.

Hopefully Young will do him some favor now. Btw, where is Shaw ?!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm not sure Pogue, I seem to remember games for 15 years ago better than I do three weeks ago.

We're discussing the alternatives to playing Martial so when I say left sided players I thought it clear I wasn't talking left backs. I've also clarified that again so not quite sure why we're labouring this point.

When we go into a game like we did against Liverpool, where the primary aim was clearly not to get beaten, I would say that arguing the toss about wing backs vs left backs is just semantics. Picking Martial ahead of both Lingard and Young, both of whom have been played on the left in similar fixtures before, is very much a show of faith. I’m not sure why you keep arguing otherwise.

 

[Terminator]

Very sharp and energetic when he got the ball... was really surprised when Jose took him off. Took all the sting out of our attacking play.

 

[MadMike]

Sorry but your point has no logic. Your eye roll answer tells me you can see that yourself. How can a guy whose barely started in the league himself be keeping two players out of the team. If Martial is keeping Lingard and Young out who is Mata( an almost permanent fixture) keeping out? No need to answer really as its self explanatory.

Sorry, but it's your post I see no sense in. My eye roll was precisely an indication of that and the fact I'm quite bored to argue the obvious with you.

Martial has started 2 League games and 2 CL games. Lingard has started....0. It's obvious he's ahead of Lingard, when he wasn't last season. He's not the only one keeping Lingard out of the team, Rashford and Mata are also ahead of Lingard, but I never claimed that he is the only one. Nor did I claim Martial is ahead of them. I simply claimed that Mourinho trusts him more than last season based on the fact that he trusts him more than Lingard (in particular) and Young.

If that makes no sense to you, then clearly there's no point continuing this discussion.

 

[MadMike]

....

Hopefully Young will do him some favor now. Btw, where is Shaw ?!

Started a new career as a weight lifter

 

[El-Manos]

Started a new career as a weight lifter

As in lifting his own weight.

 

[MadMike]

As in lifting his own weight.

It's an everyday struggle.

 

[Adisa]

The mental gymnastics some will go through to prove Mourinho doesn't rate him is incredible.
If Mourinho didn't rate him, he wouldn't have started such a crucial game. That is all.
Mourinho would have played a host of other players.
I don't know what Mourinho has to say before people change their minds.

 

[Dobbs]

When we go into a game like we did against Liverpool, where the primary aim was clearly not to get beaten, I would say that arguing the toss about wing backs vs left backs is just semantics. Picking Martial ahead of both Lingard and Young, both of whom have been played on the left in similar fixtures before, is very much a show of faith. I’m not sure why you keep arguing otherwise.

There's been no such conversation.

If you think picking Martial over Lingard is significant fair enough. It's borderline meaningless to me in terms of a show of faith.

 

[JB08]

The mental gymnastics some will go through to prove Mourinho doesn't rate him is incredible.
If Mourinho didn't rate him, he wouldn't have started such a crucial game. That is all.
Mourinho would have played a host of other players.
I don't know what Mourinho has to say before people change their minds.

For some reason, when it comes to Martial everything seems to be in extremes, on both sides.

 

[Dobbs]

For some reason, when it comes to Martial everything seems to be in extremes, on both sides.

It really isn't. I can speak for myself and others I've discussed this with.

It's not that Mourinho doesn't see the talent at all. He's commented positively about that plus he's giving him decent mins this season.

However it seems obvious Mourinho isn't fully convinced. Player of the month with only one league start? That's unusual. It's also been lost that Martial was taken off Saturday. Despite being our best forward and doing a decent defensive job. Though I'm sure someone will tell me it was purely tactical.

 

[JB08]

It really isn't. I can speak for myself and others I've discussed this with.

It's not that Mourinho doesn't see the talent at all. He's commented positively about that plus he's giving him decent mins this season.

However it seems obvious Mourinho isn't fully convinced. Player of the month with only one league start? That's unusual. It's also been lost that Martial was taken off Saturday. Despite being our best forward and doing a decent defensive job. Though I'm sure someone will tell me it was purely tactical.

Sorry I don't think I was clear, I meant from a fan's perspective. Some people say Mourinho clearly rates him, he's one of the best talents in the world.. Others say there's no way Mourinho rates him, have meltdowns when he's not selected, etc.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I didn't say you are.


I disagree we're at the stage where we can playing a style regardless of opponent, especially game like vs L'pool. Still some of the positions in our starting line up are upgradable, let alone their back ups.

Our defensive game has been improving, but we're yet to get to the level of prime Rio Vida Evra or Mourinho's first stint Chelsea. It strikes fear into opposition despite being defensive. Improve this further then opposition would have to give us more respect knowing us scoring a goal would be game over for them. Solid defense would give more freedom for attackers. For positions we have the resource, the players yet to fulfill their potential. There is a hole in other positions we need to fix. We're still compensate for the defense as of now.

Our attacking line, The veteran guys unfortunate not guaranteed starter and upgradable. Some are players brought in by Mourinho so they also have to adapt to the league, team. Then young guys understandably are inconsistent and we can only afford as much risk with the starting line up, given how there are still a lot of problem in the starting line up. Someone like Lukaku still needs to improve his overall game and he is holding the main men status. Rashford Martial understandably would have to sacrifice to help the common cause.

I think and believe that Mourinho is shortening the rebuild by going the result route instead of style, given we're losing few years to mismanagement after SAF. He's trying to get the players the winner mentality and rewinding time. By this I meant we're gonna be hit & miss in big game to get result to challenge, compete for trophies, even if it means reliving Zombie football at latter stage of SAF years. Then over time adding quality and transform to more expansive side in mold of our 2006-2009 team. We're not going from 2003-2006 transition way given the stake and competition is differently harder now. Since may not being able to groom all the young talent ourselves we need to make sure we stay attractive to incoming p,Ayer by success. Under Mourinho we will have to accept that we need result at all cost given unlike SAF, he would be given as much patience and support even within the club. Result and trophy is a must. You know how Chelsea got Hazard by flunking that CL playing even more awful defensive football.

I agree with most of what you say tbh and I applaud Mourinho for his pragmatic approach but there's still something telling me, 'come on, we are definitely more capable than what we're showing and that comes from the top'.

Either way, it's going to be an exciting season once we get all our players fit.

 

[johnamiri]

He is obviously a very good player but he seems to not know whats expected of him. You would think that someone with his pace a dribbling ability would have been allowed to take on Joe Gomez at least a couple of times but he was totally subdued. Was that instructions from Mourinho or did he just have a poor game going forward.

 

[breakout67]

It really isn't. I can speak for myself and others I've discussed this with.

It's not that Mourinho doesn't see the talent at all. He's commented positively about that plus he's giving him decent mins this season.

However it seems obvious Mourinho isn't fully convinced. Player of the month with only one league start? That's unusual. It's also been lost that Martial was taken off Saturday. Despite being our best forward and doing a decent defensive job. Though I'm sure someone will tell me it was purely tactical.

You can hardly call it a discussion, it's more of a circle jerk about how amazing Martial is.

Some people have erased from their memory that the manager favoured Martial on the left, until he was forced to drop him because his level was low at the beginning of the season. You cannot isolate one year of his career which was good and act as if this is indicative of his level. He has had 1 good year and 1 average year with us, and so he must be judged accordingly.

It is not as if Martial continued his level from the first season and was dropped; his level fell dramatically and for a sustained period. First impressions are important and he gave a poor first impression. The same can be said for Mkhitaryan who was completely frozen out of the premiere league because he did not play to the required level.

When someone says that Martial can't influence the game when given defensive responsibility they are actually admitting that he isnt good enough. Hazard, Di Maria, Robben etc. all perform with the defensive duties they were given under Mourinho. I think that Martial has the potential to be at the level of Hazard, Robben, Sanchez etc. and I think that he is showing the same level of play as his first season. I think that Martial can be the level of player that can own our left side; but he is not at that level yet.

 

[don't sign old players]

With Pogba and Mata missing the service wasn't good going forward. Matic, Lukaku etc. came from extensive traveling. Liverpool had the ascendancy in field position. If anything it was Moreno who stepped up to win and recycle possession that caused us to come second in everything we tried to do. If we wanted to open up our attack we needed to give Moreno a bit more to think about. I believe Mata was missed in this game and the whole attack felt it.

 

[Yagami]

The mental gymnastics some will go through to prove Mourinho doesn't rate him is incredible.
If Mourinho didn't rate him, he wouldn't have started such a crucial game. That is all.
Mourinho would have played a host of other players.
I don't know what Mourinho has to say before people change their minds.

Not so much say but do. When was the last time Martial had a run of games? I don't think he has since José's first few as manager. He was rightfully dropped as he was poor but since then he's produced more good performances than bad, and has been better than Rashford, Mkhi and Mata but is seemingly behind all 3 in the pecking order.

Also, I'm waiting to see if José starts him in a big game when his other attacking options are fit themselves unlike against Liverpool. And if he does start him, not having him subbed off despite being playing better than the other attackers on the pitch.